The 6.8's terminal ballistics are ideal (given cartridge size restrictions) for the application (human combat).  This should be no big surprise, as bullets from 5.56mm to 7.62mm were tested during the development program.  The SPC developers had thought it likely that a 6.5mm bullet would be selected, but testing showed that the 6.8mm bullet (a .277" bullet, the same as used in .270 Winchester) was a much better fit with the desired performance envelope (again, human combat).

The 6.5mm Grendel is an excellent long-range cartridge, and has better *long-range* accuracy potential than the 6.8 SPC (out to 600m or so, they perform pretty similarly).  Its wound profile with many bullets tested would make it a great choice for medium-large game, such as elk or black bear.  So far, no bullet tested has shown it to fit the desired terminal ballistic parameters for human combat.  It also is much more affected by shortening the barrel length than the 6.8 SPC, which is not surprising as the 6.5 Grendel is more "overbore" than the 6.8 SPC.

Both rounds have their plusses and minuses.  Which one you choose should be based on the application you intend to use it for.  A pickup truck would make a horrible Indy car, and an Indy car is pretty useless if you need to haul some lumber home from Home depot.  That doesn't make either of them "bad", just application-specific.  Same here.

The statement "6.5 Grendel, A better round then the 6.8 SPC" is true in some circumstances, and totally false in others.

-Troy

IMO, both these rounds have been seriously hampered by the people behind their development.

The 6.8 has had all kinds of problems with getting ammo out in people's hands for years after the round was first introduced. People still have a hard time trying to get any.

The 6.5 Grendel has been so closely controlled by Alexander Arms and a very small number of licensees, that it is basically impossible to get anything but an upper or a gun that they decide you will have, and you can forget about doing your own build or getting barrels, bolts, and magazines, as a package to convert your own gun. They will decide what you can have, and the options you can have, and if that doesn't suit you, you cannot use the caliber, or you risk infringing on their proprietary design.

Neither of these calibers have been well handled by the developers, and if something doesn't give pretty soon, we are all going to be sick and tired of both of  them.

I used to be a Grendel supporter, but I have since turned my attention to another caliber which I can actually build my gun the way I want it without being "locked out" by a bunch of bureaucratic crap.

Quoted: Have anybody noticed the barrel lengths of the  6.5 Grendel uppers that are being used for comparison against the 6.8 spc(28-24 inchs compared to a 16 inch 6.8 spc). Did you know that some of the posters that are in favor of the 6.5 grendal have monetary involvement in it succeeding. Most of the disinformation about the 6.8 spc is from those posters. The 6.8 spc is designed as a assault rifle cartridge, it does that job very well up to 500 meters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assult_rifle

This can go the other way as well. Did you ever think that the folks that were against the 6.5 was because they couldn't capitalize on it (saying they "made it") and charge the Govt and arm and a leg??? The companies that REALLY pushed the 6.8 had the most to gain from the Govt adopting it (and nothing to gain from the .Mil crowd choosing the 6.5).



C4

RedFalconBill,

I was disappointed about the whole situation.

It wasn't the licensing fees that caused the problem.
It was that even after licensing, I couldn't get what I wanted done, without a whole lot of jumping thru hoops.
First, we did call Arne, and he was very nice, and tried to help us as much as possible.
Arne is a good guy.
However, the way it came out was that we would have to make the barrel at ABS, then send it to Arne for the proprietary barrel extension to be installed, then send it across the country again to Lothar Walther for the chamber to be reamed with their proprietary reamer, and then sent back to ABS for final testing, and then I could get the barrel sent to me to put into my gun.

This was not what I had in mind.
We have a complete state of the art barrel building facility, and do benchrest quality machine work and chambering. We were willing to pay the license fee, which is very small. But we wanted to do all the work ourselves, with the license and the proper instructions. Not send everything to Timbuktu and back to get a simple barrel done. It's not like we never chambered a barrel before. I understand that they want to maintain quality control, but this is a bit much.

The other funny thing is that Woody at Lothar Walther barrels(where the Grendel barrels are made) actually uses an MGI QCB system at his shop. That's what I wanted to use the Grendel barrel in. But it seems damn near impossible to get a barrel, bolt, and mag for my system, because I don't want a completed upper assembly, and that's all they really want to sell. Yes, they provided a way for me to do it, but it was way too cumbersome to operate that way. Too many cooks in the kitchen. I don't want 3 different guys working on my barrel.

So, I've had to look in other directions.
I have to say that I am disappointed because I really wanted the 6.5 Grendel for my gun.
I love the caliber, but I'm not going thru that much trouble to try to get it.

I am considering a wildcat cartridge that is based on a different case instead.
It will be a bit less velocity than the Grendel, but has other benefits, and will still be a 6.5.

Thought I would stop by and say hi

Some people have commented that we use 24-28 inch barrel rifles to establish a performance advantage vs the 6.8 that uses a 16 inch.  I really have no clue were this comes from. While I do shoot quite a bit of 28 inch rifles for my passion, 1000 yard shooting for accuarcy, I also shoot a 20 inch barrel A2 which I use for validation of performance.   Actually just finished developing a real world 120 FMJ Grendel magazine length load that is running 2700 fps from a 20 inch A2 AR15.

I know Bill Alexander does have a 16 inch barrel Grendel and a 16 inch production model is coming out to coincide with the release of Wolf ammo (brass case) this fall.   Bill Alexander himself uses either a 16 inch, 19.5 inch or 24 inch for all his work.

It has become kinda of amazing that people say they have tested both and one was found to be superior to the other.  I am honest enough to say, I have never shot a 6.8 SPC,,, I would, just to try one, but cant get ammo like any of you and since no validated production ammo for the 6.8 SPC exists, any such declartion either way is inappropriate and inaccurate.  That is a fair statement to both cartridges.  Anyone claiming they have shot both needs to provide proof to validate their declaration.

People wanting custom Grendel's with this handguard or that happen.  I have put PRI, ARMS, Knight and LaRue stuff on to meet people's wishes.  Not a big deal, just dont send me a pile of questionable, out of spec parts to do it.

Either way, if you want a 6.8 ,,, get one,,, if you want a 6.5,,, get one. This is not a winner take all deal.. Both cartridges can succeed.   Trust me, we are not doing anything to Remington to keep them from shipping 6.8 ammo.

Yes, I do make money on the 6.5 Grendel (only if you buy from CSS)... I also spent 5 years pouring my own money and time into it.  Of course, when someone does buy from me, I give them the benefit of thousands of rounds of load development and testing.

Good Shooting

Arne @ Competition Shooting Sports.

The 120 FMJ bullet, long produced by Norma,, was put into load development for multiple reasons

1. It is a true FMJ fully compliant with the Hague convention.
2. The BC of the 120 FMJ is within a few points of the 7.62 NATO M80 ball projectile (120 FMJ - .428BC vs 147 FMJ- .415BC)  As such, launched at equal velocity, the 120 FMJ out of the 6.5 Grendel is a ballistic twin of the 7.62 NATO M80 round,,, with the added beneift of having less recoil, ammo weighing about 35% less and able to function in the AR15 / M16 platform.  Based on testing only completed two weeks ago, the velocity is achievable with multiple off the shelf powders.   The actual load information will not be released until it has been verfiied and pressure tested in a pressure rig.  Safety First.
3. The 120 FMJ is a currently available mass produced projectile that is in the ideal weight range for a cartridge of the Grendel's size.   There is also a Lapua 144 FMJBT which is a like a freight train going downrange.

Dubious performance??? again, dont know where this comes from.  I received a shipment (in May 2005) direct from the CEO of Norma in Sweden and the only people who have been testing it are Bill Alexander and myself.  I know Bill Alexander took a few hundred loaded rounds to Blackwater to let people have a go with it.  From reports, they liked it.

Of course, factory 6.5 Grendel load data already exsits to match the performance of the 7.62 NATO M118  loading, so the 6.5 Grendel 120 FMJ loading just completes the 7.62 NATO matching.

I never stop testing so I can continue my work even beyond the AR15.

Okay, in response to Bill's post above, I'll describe my experience.
First, I tried calling Alexander Arms to talk to Bill directly, but it was on a Saturday and I only got an answering machine, so I decided to email instead.
My email was sent on April 16th, and the prompt response was on the 18th from John Burke of AA.

Here is the email printed exactly as I got it back from AA, with the response shown first, and my original email at the bottom:

Begin cut and paste.---------------------------------

Tom -

We are working on the license agreements for both the Grendel and Beowulf
chamberings.  I will get you the paperwork as soon as it is available.

Thank you for your interest in Alexander Arms.

Sincerely,

John
_________________________

John F. Burke

-----Original Message-----
From: Trellix Mailer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Customer Enquiry

name: Tom Lyons

email: [email protected]

Product:: 6.5 Grendel

topics: Hi,
I work with 2 companies that develop products for the AR15.
These are MGI Military, and ABS barrels. I am interested in offering the 6.5
Grendel chambering for our barrels, as options to our customers.
Our MGI Quick-Change-Barrel system offers rapid changing of
barrels/calibers, and we sell barrel/bolt/mag packages for this purpose.
Please let me know what is involved in getting permission to offer this
caliber option to our customers.

Thank you,
Tom Lyons

End of cut and paste.--------------------------------------------------


As you can see, I did represent myself as being both from MGI and ABS, which I am. I explained the reasons why I wanted only the barrels, bolts, and mags, because we market a quick-change-barrel upper that would preclude the need for an upper assembly, and offered another type of outlet for AA, that could satisfy our customers and theirs.

ABS barrels is producing one of the most advanced precision barrels in the world, with the carbon fiber process. MGI has the  fastest AR15 QCB system in the world currently. We deal with advanced clientele which demand the latest and most sophisticated products. I have had requests from clients to provide 6.5 Grendel kits for the MGI QCB on numerous occasions, and I also wanted one pretty badly myself.

After getting the response from John Burke about the forthcoming licensing paperwork, I never heard from AA again, and never got any paperwork.

Then, I had Mike from ABS barrels call Arne at CSS to see what he could do.
We got the way basically cleared to do what we wanted for my one barrel, but it was too cumbersome of a project in my opinion, as I described in my previous post. There was no way that method was going to fly with providing customers their barrels. So we never sent Arne a barrel, and the process of going 6.5 Grendel was no longer in my perceived future. However, I do admit that Arne did clear some way for me to do it, and I am grateful to him for doing that for me, even though I didn't proceed with it.

So, what happened then, was that I was stuck having to look at other calibers that  represented more of a compromise in ballistics than I wanted, because my first choice, the 6.5 Grendel, was essentially not available logistically in the package that I needed.

My situation was this:
I had money in hand, ready to buy for myself.
I had 2 high-profile companies that I represent, waiting ready to become licensed to offer the 6.5 Grendel chambered barrels with AA bolts and AA mags, to our customers of high performance AR15 gear.
I made the contacts by email to AA, and Mike at ABS made the contact by phone to CSS.
It was made known that we wanted to license and build barrels for sale to high-speed customers.
ABS barrels provides benchrest grade carbon fiber barrels and conventional match barrels to MGI customers, as well as its own customers, and has impeccable accuracy and precision facilities handling all manner of factory and wildcat chamberings.
ABS and MGI wanted to be able to offer this chambering, because it is a good caliber and customers want it(including me).
I was swinging as much "pull" as about anybody could do.

Now, here it is, months later, and not only do I not have a 6.5 Grendel, but I'm forced to look elswhere because so many impediments were placed in my buying path, that I couldn't make the purchase, nor could I bring 2 companies to the table for licensing.

As a salesman myself, I learned long ago that to be sucessful, you must make it easy for your customers to buy your product. Objections must be overcome, and ease of purchasing is mandatory. Unfortunately, I did not find it easy to purchase the product, even after trying to jump thru many hoops, and trying to get licensed, and everything.

Now, don't get me wrong.
I like the product, and to me the 6.5 Grendel is still the hot number in mid-bore cartridges for the AR15. I'd love to have a barrel/bolt/mag setup for my gun in the ABS carbon fiber barrel with the 6.5 Grendel chambering/bolt/mag.
I'd love to be able to sell packages like that to my MGI QCB customers.
I'd love to be able to offer state-of-the-art carbon fiber composite match barrels to my customers from ABS, in 6.5 Grendel, along with the AA bolts and mags.
But, I can't offer complete uppers because I work with a company that makes switch-barrel uppers that do not use a single dedicated barrel in its own dedicated upper. The only upper that I want to offer with this package is the QCB switch-barrel upper.

That's what I originally wanted, and that's what I still want.
Don't know if I can get it.

Again, please don't take this necessarily as a rag on Bill or AA.
It is just an account of what I was trying to accomplish, and the results of what happened.
I still want to own a 6.5 Grendel package and  have both of the companies I represent become licensees to chamber barrels in 6.5 Grendel and offer the AA bolts and mags with them, so that my customers can have the Advanced Barrel System carbon fiber barrel technology and regular match barrels chambered in 6.5 Grendel along with our MGI QCB system, just like I would want it for myself.

Standard Barrel Nut - Yes
Standard Barrel Extension - No
Magazine Capacity in the space of a GI 30 rounder - 25 reliably