There has been one report of the 2001 headstamp ammo cases rupturing:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=217787

There have been SIX confirmed customers who have now reported finding the 2001 headstamp ammo to have visible cracks in the cases, or the cases ruptured when fired.


After reading this.... I decided to take a look at mine... I have not shot any yet.  I purchase this ammo from Ammoman, and my logic was that it was surplus ammo, but based on gooooood lake city brass, and I would use that brass for reloading for my AR10.  Now I am not real thrilled about that plan.

Sure enough, I found a noticeable CRACK in the brass on one of my '01 rounds.  The crack was .4" from the base of the case, and was .3" long.  This would definitely be a case failure if fired!

This picture is not very good, and the crack is hard to see, but you can see the mark or rubbed spot that seemed to accompany all the cracked ones I found:



This ammo is shipped loose in ammo cans, or boxes marked "for training only"

I sorted 500 rounds.  It is mixed headstamp (weird for NEW ammo?)   It broke down like this:

04 - 447 rounds
00 - 42 rounds
03 - 8 rounds
01 - 4 rounds

I took my Wilsons Case gauge and measured 50 of the '04, 42 of the '00, 8 of the '03, and 4 of the '01.

100% fell right into the gauge and headspaced correctly.... and showed a correct trim length.  So far so good.

I measured COAL of random samples... all I think are acceptable:

04 - 2.776" to 2.790"  Most were 2.786" +-.003
00 - 2.772" to 2.789"  Most were 2.785" +-.003
03 - 2.786" to 2.790"  Most were 2.785" +-.001 (small sample)
01 - 2.782", 2.784", 2.785", 2.788"

I measured random weights of each loaded cartridge by headstamp.... here is the spread with lightest and heaviest:

04 - 369.9 to 372.2
00 - 372.6 to 374.6
03 - 371.6 to 374.5
01 - 373.3 to 375.0

Personally, I think pretty much all of the above SUCK.... but I guess thats .mill brass and bullets for ya.

Not wanting to fire any of the 2001 lot.... I pulled the bullets and weight the components:

bullets: 147.8  147.6  148.2  147.9
powder:  43.1  43.3  43.4  43.3

I think the above is acceptable.... although a very small sample.


Therefore, the only conclusion I can make is the 2001 brass is BAD.  I highly recommend that anyone who bought this stuff, based on these two accounts, sort their headstamps and demil any 2001 ammo.  

I still plan on reloading the 04 lot.... but only after REALLY close inspection of the brass.  If I find any more problems, I will report it back to this thread.... but it will be a while before I get that far.


I would appreciate anyone else who might have experienced these problems to add their experiences to this thread.  Also, would love some ideas as to why this ammo was surplussed, why it is mixed headstamp, and why that lot of brass appears to be unsafe?

Wow!  I haven't checked out too much of my brass cuz I'm shooting it out of a PTR (HK clone) and it flings the brass a zillion miles away.  I can say that the LC ammo is very hot, and any weakness in the brass would definitely make itself known quick.

Ok, I sorted the other 500 rounds I have.  I found 4 more 2001 headstamps in these.

Of these 4, two of the rounds had the mild "dents" in them in the same spot as described above.  In those two with the dents.... BOTH of them had VISIBLE cracks on the outside of the case.... right in the spot where the "dent" or shiny spot is.    

Shooters beware.

Thanks for the warning. I have two 500rnd cans to sort through now.

Sounds like LC had some serious problems in 01.. What with the pretzel in the 5.56 case thread..


Maybe the FBI should take a look into the plant??? Sabotage???

Quoted: Sounds like LC had some serious problems in 01.. What with the pretzel in the 5.56 case thread.. Maybe the FBI should take a look into the plant??? Sabotage???

I think that federal contracted with the makers of cracker jacks for 5.56 ammo since they are running behind.  Federal just never told them not to put a prize in every round.

Quoted: Sounds like LC had some serious problems in 01.. What with the pretzel in the 5.56 case thread.. Maybe the FBI should take a look into the plant??? Sabotage???

A couple of years ago, we were involved in a malfunction investigation. We were requested by Rock Island to formulate a non-destructive inspection technique to screen 1.3 Million rounds of 7.62mm M82 blank ammunition that was LAP at Lake City AAP. Apparently, the malfunction involved some 5.56mm M855 bullets that found their way inside the crimped M82 case. The investigation was high priority as the entire stockpile of M82 blanks was suspended by RI due to the poorly kept records of ATK detailing which lots might have been affected. Eventually we were able to establish a radiographic inspection technique whereby ATK can x-ray two .50-caliber size ammo cans of blanks, without having to break each can's security seals, on a standard size sheet of x-ray film. Any M855 bullet embedded inside a M82 case was easily identified on the film due to the density of the M855's compound core. Even so, it must have taken ATK quite a while to x-ray and screen 1.3 million rounds.  

Can someone link me to this pretzel thread? TIA

Pretzel thread:

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=218579

Quoted: Pretzel thread: ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=218579

Interesting thread.  Thanks.

Quoted: Quoted: Sounds like LC had some serious problems in 01.. What with the pretzel in the 5.56 case thread.. Maybe the FBI should take a look into the plant??? Sabotage??? A couple of years ago, we were involved in a malfunction investigation. We were requested by Rock Island to formulate a non-destructive inspection technique to screen 1.3 Million rounds of 7.62mm M82 blank ammunition that was LAP at Lake City AAP. Apparently, the malfunction involved some 5.56mm M855 bullets that found their way inside the crimped M82 case. The investigation was high priority as the entire stockpile of M82 blanks was suspended by RI due to the poorly kept records of ATK detailing which lots might have been affected. Eventually we were able to establish a radiographic inspection technique whereby ATK can x-ray two .50-caliber size ammo cans of blanks, without having to break each can's security seals, on a standard size sheet of x-ray film. Any M855 bullet embedded inside a M82 case was easily identified on the film due to the density of the M855's compound core. Even so, it must have taken ATK quite a while to x-ray and screen 1.3 million rounds.

Now I know where your nic comes from!  Fascinating story, thanks!

Note to ammo buyers.... When ammo is marked "for training only", guess what? It's substandard.

I checked one of my cases ordered from Ammoman and of the first handful I pulled out  there were 4 2001 headstamps with the dent and of those 3 had a crack.  I called Eric (Ammoman) about it and he will take it back but I have to pay return shippping to the tune of $92.   I now have a call in to Federal to see what they will do about it.   Thanks for the heads up Falarak, I'm not shooting this stuff.

I was out shooting this stuff thru my PTR again on Monday.  It is FUCKING HOT ammo.  I was shooting just as the sun was dropping behing the mountains (still daylight), and the Muzzle Flash is HUGE!
There is No Way you could shoot this ammo thru my gun at night for real battle.

The PTR is brutal enough to shoot as it is, but this ammo makes it even More painful!!

Quoted: I checked one of my cases ordered from Ammoman and of the first handful I pulled out  there were 4 2001 headstamps with the dent and of those 3 had a crack.  I called Eric (Ammoman) about it and he will take it back but I have to pay return shippping to the tune of $92.   I now have a call in to Federal to see what they will do about it.   Thanks for the heads up Falarak, I'm not shooting this stuff.

Well... so far, only the 2001 headstamps have the mark or crack, from what I can tell.  I haven't shot any of my 00, 03, or 04 headstamp ammo, but do plan to.  I just pulled the 8 2001's I got and demilled them.  Please keep us posted if Federal comes back with a response.

I am really surprised there arent more people reporting this issue... I'd love to hear from someone who checked/fired/inspected their 2001 stuff, and DIDNT find any issues.

I shot 50rds of this stuff out of my bolt gun on sunday and the 2rds of 2001 in the group were okay. I plan on looking throught my cases and see if I find any bad 2001's.

Markm is right, this stuff is hot. Muzzle blast is immese, but I did notice that power was inconsistent between headstamp dates. All of the 2003 rounds were louder than the others and had flattened primers, where the '00, '01, '02 and '04 looked fine with not primer flattening.

One good thing about this stuff is that it is petty accurate. My bolt gun was giving me ~1.5" groups at 100yds.

Still waiting on Federal to return my call.   I'll keep you posted.

Does a magnet stick to the bullet on the LC 308?

Quoted: Does a magnet stick to the bullet on the LC 308?

YES!  Except for a handful of IAI (about 17 rounds in my box) that was mixed in with it.

Quoted: Quoted: Does a magnet stick to the bullet on the LC 308? YES!  Except for a handful of IAI (about 17 rounds in my box) that was mixed in with it.

Thanks...Guess I won't be getting LC 308 then for my bolt gun, probably get the Aussie instead.

I ordered 1000 from ammoman also.  Had 30 or so 01 in the 1st 500 and I shot them before finding this thread.  6 of the cases ruptured.  I also shot about 50 02 and 03's and non of them had problems.  I'll see if I can scrounge up the ruptured cases and get some pictures.  I am interested in what federal has to say.

Does this look like a BRASS issue or an OVERCHARGE issue?  I'll have to look thru my box tonight.  I looked thru it when I first got it, but I was mostly checking out the various head stamps.

Quoted: Does this look like a BRASS issue or an OVERCHARGE issue?  I'll have to look thru my box tonight.  I looked thru it when I first got it, but I was mostly checking out the various head stamps.

Obviously... since the brass is often cracked before firing... this is a brass issue.  Now, if all the brass shows signs of severe overcharge... thats could compound the weak/cracked brass, but I doubt that is the case.  Lots of milsurp .308 is hot and flattens the primers a bit.

Would these dented and cracked cases definitely cause a problem if fired?  If so, what kind of problem?

OK, I sorted all of my remaining LC 308 tonight.  I found about 15 rounds of the 01 headstamp.  NONE of my 01 has any damage to the brass or any cracking of any kind.  It's all indistinguishable from the rest of the stuff.

I have obout 15 rounds of 74 head stamp too.  But again, none of the ammo has any distinguishing characteristics.

Quoted: OK, I sorted all of my remaining LC 308 tonight.  I found about 15 rounds of the 01 headstamp.  NONE of my 01 has any damage to the brass or any cracking of any kind.  It's all indistinguishable from the rest of the stuff. I have obout 15 rounds of 74 head stamp too.  But again, none of the ammo has any distinguishing characteristics.

Shoot the 2001 and send us pics of the brass.  

Quoted: Shoot the 2001 and send us pics of the brass.

OK!  I'll shoot it separate, and try to recover as much of the brass as possible.  But I have the PTR 91 so all the brass that I do find looks like hell.  Fluted, blackened, dented, case rim all chewed to hell... etc.

I bought a couple thousand Radway Green .308 a few years ago. I'm down to 200 rounds now.
I have had nothing but get experiences with them. No misfires and it groups pretty darn good for surplus.

I got some pics of the ruptured '01 from my batch.

http://www.unnerv.com/stuff/rupture.jpg

Great, Just got a box today from Sprotmans guide



Guess I start sorting


Ok. done sorting.
Found three 01 and fiered them today in my STG. I had the gas selector turned to Gr and single loaded the rounds. all fired and no splits in the cases.
I did find one 97 headstamp, I know it's not a pretzel but do I get a prize?

I sorted through my 500 round box of LC .308.  I found a grand total of 1 (one) round that had an 01 headstamp.  It appeared to be in good shape, no signs of damage.  

Here it is after firing it:





Glad I only got one round.............

I just got back from shooting.  I fired All of the 01 LC that I had, and none of it ruptured or appeared any different than any of the other brass that I was shooting.

Just the big fat dent that my PTR puts on all the brass.

I have about 25% '01 headstamps.
No cracks but the '01 cases are the only ones that show corrosion.
Bump

I have about 20 rounds of '74 that have the link tarnish on them.  I'll shoot those next time to see if they fail.

I'll chime in here.. the LC 03 M80 ammo that the CMP has is excellent ammo.. This is supposedly not surplus ammo from LC but ammo that the CMP bought(contract) from LC(according to Orest). I have shot almost 1K rounds of it through my 308 Garands and M1A's with no brass problems.. it is accurate stuff on par with the Aussie ammo.

bump

Good information gentlemen, 01 head stamp is somthing to beware of. I found 6 rounds in my first box, none damaged or cracked. have another 1000rds. on the way. I always sort anyway so I'll watch for the 01's. This LC ammo shoot into 3/4" all day long out of my S/S AR-10, lots of groups closer to 1/2".
However, I think your making more of an issue out of this than is really there. Use the info to disregard the 01 stuff and toss it. Most people don't seem to be getting a whole lot of it in their orders, and it's CHEAP, GOOD ammo. If you want perfect ammo, buy the expensive match stuff.
To the poor guy who has a bunch and must pay to return it, FIND A DIFFERENT DEALER. If a substantial protion of your order is questionable or unuseable, your dealer should step up. He Bought from Federal and resold to you implying that you were getting a safe product reasonably free of defects. He should be the one dealing with Federal because he, as a dealer is buying much more ammo than you will have their attention. What ever happened to customer service?

I shot some of the '04 headstamp in my AR10T today....

The lake city '04 was pretty hot feeling, and had a HUGE fireball....  no flash suppressant in this powder.  

I fired the Lake City, some Aussie Surplus, and some handloads with 168SMK's.  

The Lake city shot the worst, *averaging* about 2.5" @ 100.  The Aussie did about 1.5", and the handloads primted about an inch, which is typical.  5 shots groups, of course.

Ran out of the 04 headstamp, started on the 02. shot 10-12 5 shot groups, doesn't shoot as tight as the 04 through my rifle, groups opened up to 13/4" but thats still plenty good enough for playing.

BTT.  Anyone had any recent experiences with this ammo?

I just checked my box of 500 and I found 17 of the 01'
It looks okay but I'll try and recover the brass

Quoted: Note to ammo buyers.... When ammo is marked "for training only", guess what? It's substandard.

+1000

Making a note

O1 LC 308  

Quoted: Quoted: Does a magnet stick to the bullet on the LC 308? YES!  Except for a handful of IAI (about 17 rounds in my box) that was mixed in with it.

I apologize for the ignorance, but what does it mean if a magnet sticks to the ammo

thanks,
Ron

Quoted: I apologize for the ignorance, but what does it mean if a magnet sticks to the ammo thanks, Ron

It means the projectile has a copper washed mild steel jacket, instead of a solid copper jacket.

There are SOME who think that the mild steel jackets are harder on the barrel rifling, and should only be fired through military (chrome lined) barrels....

Quoted: I'll chime in here.. the LC 03 M80 ammo that the CMP has is excellent ammo.. This is supposedly not surplus ammo from LC but ammo that the CMP bought(contract) from LC(according to Orest). I have shot almost 1K rounds of it through my 308 Garands and M1A's with no brass problems.. it is accurate stuff on par with the Aussie ammo.

+1

I have shot and reloaded (up to about 5 to 6 loadings in an M1a so far!) this ammo from the CMP and there is nothing wrong with it.  I can't figure out why more people are not buying this ammo instead of the mixed junk.

It took several months but Federal finally did the right thing and refunded my money for the ammo and appologized for the inconvenince.  According to Federal the 2001 headstamp was defective; probably damaged from delinking.  They don't return calls so the best way to get in touch with them is via the following email address:    [email protected]    Expect to wait weeks for a response and be persistent.  It should be apparent to them that this is an issue.  Good luck.