le.atk.com/223data/223rifle.asp?pgtocall=2

Now discuss...

Only just now found this?

The ink/dye injection, does make it easier to see.  However it has the double benefit (for ATK) of making the ammunition look better by emphasizing the temporary cavity.  The Bare Gel T223A picture does not match the data given.  I suspect the bare gel picture to be correct, not the typed data.  Other than that it is pretty good data.

Question: who out there stocks this ammo & will actually sell it to us lowly "civilians"???

I've never found anyone who would sell the LE223T1 (55gr TBBC) or LE223T3 (62gr TBBC) to civilians.  However the civilian-available Federal P223T2 is the same loading as the LE223T1.  There's some in the EE at the moment.

Pretty vague and shitty as expected from the company selling it.  Wow they shot "heavy clothing" "Steel" and "Wallboard"  without giving any details ie. thickness and hardness of steel, what type of clothing and how many layers, or what thickness of wallboard.  Their lack of details plus added dye in the gel makes the entire set of pages pointless.  

Quoted: Pretty vague and shitty as expected from the company selling it.  Wow they shot "heavy clothing" "Steel" and "Wallboard"  without giving any details ie. thickness and hardness of steel, what type of clothing and how many layers, or what thickness of wallboard.  Their lack of details plus added dye in the gel makes the entire set of pages pointless.

Actually the details you are looking for are right here:  

www.le.atk.com/

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

I just searched the past threads concerning this ammo & the general consensus seems to be that this stuff is no good for defensive purposes... I don't quite understand?

If you stick with the bonded soft point loadings you are in good shape. They step out with sufficient velocity, they penetrate into the widely accepted ideal of 12-18 inches (through clothing, plywood, wallboard, etc.), and they retain their weight while reliably expanding to a half inch in diameter.

I may be wrong, but these loadings seem like solid performers to me.

What am I missing here???

Quoted: Quoted: Pretty vague and shitty as expected from the company selling it.  Wow they shot "heavy clothing" "Steel" and "Wallboard"  without giving any details ie. thickness and hardness of steel, what type of clothing and how many layers, or what thickness of wallboard.  Their lack of details plus added dye in the gel makes the entire set of pages pointless.   Actually the details you are looking for are right here:   www.le.atk.com/ Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

I learn something new each day

The problem with performance is that most of those rounds don't appear to meet FBI standards even on bare gel.   I still really hate the added dye.

nice to have the information available.  My department isues LE223T1.

Quoted: I just searched the past threads concerning this ammo & the general consensus seems to be that this stuff is no good for defensive purposes... I don't quite understand? If you stick with the bonded soft point loadings you are in good shape. They step out with sufficient velocity, they penetrate into the widely accepted ideal of 12-18 inches (through clothing, plywood, wallboard, etc.), and they retain their weight while reliably expanding to a half inch in diameter. I may be wrong, but these loadings seem like solid performers to me. What am I missing here???

Because according to the ammo-oracle (which is infallible and cannot be disputed) the only acceptable ammo for self defense is that which fragments like a grenade inside a body.

Hunting-type soft point expanding bullets kill human-size deer dead where they stand but Tatjana and Brouhaha say they are no good on people.

Quoted: I've never found anyone who would sell the LE223T1 (55gr TBBC) or LE223T3 (62gr TBBC) to civilians.  However the civilian-available Federal P223T2 is the same loading as the LE223T1.  There's some in the EE at the moment.

Load your own.

Also, it looks like the commonly available 64 gr SP load will ruin anyone's day badly, with less chance of over penetration.

Quoted: I've never found anyone who would sell the LE223T1 (55gr TBBC) or LE223T3 (62gr TBBC) to civilians.  However the civilian-available Federal P223T2 is the same loading as the LE223T1.  There's some in the EE at the moment.

If you don't want to make your own, buy Federal's P223Q loaded with the 60 grain Nosler Partition at 2700 fps.  It will do anything that a 62 gr TBBC will do.

LE ammo is 99% nothign special, and equal or better loading are always available in the hunting or target shooting lines from the same manufacturer.

Quoted: Quoted: I've never found anyone who would sell the LE223T1 (55gr TBBC) or LE223T3 (62gr TBBC) to civilians.  However the civilian-available Federal P223T2 is the same loading as the LE223T1.  There's some in the EE at the moment. If you don't want to make your own, buy Federal's P223Q loaded with the 60 grain Nosler Partition at 2700 fps.  It will do anything that a 62 gr TBBC will do. LE ammo is 99% nothign special, and equal or better loading are always available in the hunting or target shooting lines from the same manufacturer.

The 62gr TBBC projectile is not sold to the public, even for reloading.  Don't worry, the 55gr is just as good.  I am not aware of any barrier testing done with the Nosler Partition at this time.  If you have some data to share I'd be happy to see it, but I'm not going to just take your word for it.

As for the Federal TRU line, yes most of it is not very good performing.  However the bonded loads are very good and recommended consistently by DocGKR and others on this board for barrier work.  They do not produce a wound profile nearly as large as heavy, fragmenting OTM's (68-77gr OTM's), but they are no slouch.  They are the only load in .223/5.56mm that has been tested to date that passes FBI's standards through intermediate barriers such as front windshield glass.

Quoted: The 62gr TBBC projectile is not sold to the public, even for reloading.  Don't worry, the 55gr is just as good.  I am not aware of any barrier testing done with the Nosler Partition at this time.  If you have some data to share I'd be happy to see it, but I'm not going to just take your word for it.

So it seems regarding the 62 gr TBBC.  

I don't have any barrier testing data of the Nosler Partition 60.  But based on the fact that the Nosler has a bonded core AND a solid copper wall between cores to stop expansion at that point (the TBBC has a solid copper rear half, but works exactly like the Nosler), I would bet anything that the Nosler will perform as well or better than the Speer.

Since Nosler's been at the controlled expansion, deep penetration bullet game longer than anyone else, I have no trouble making that leap.

Besides, I don't care if you take my word for it or not.  It's dead easy to buy or make stuff that will outperform most anything branded "Law Enforcement" with the components available today.

Maybe we should ask Old Painless to shoot up some windshields and car doors with Partitions.

Quoted: Quoted: The 62gr TBBC projectile is not sold to the public, even for reloading.  Don't worry, the 55gr is just as good.  I am not aware of any barrier testing done with the Nosler Partition at this time.  If you have some data to share I'd be happy to see it, but I'm not going to just take your word for it. So it seems regarding the 62 gr TBBC.   I don't have any barrier testing data of the Nosler Partition 60.  But based on the fact that the Nosler has a bonded core AND a solid copper wall between cores to stop expansion at that point (the TBBC has a solid copper rear half, but works exactly like the Nosler), I would bet anything that the Nosler will perform as well or better than the Speer. Since Nosler's been at the controlled expansion, deep penetration bullet game longer than anyone else, I have no trouble making that leap.

I think just about everyone in the terminal ballistics community has high hopes for the Nosler partition.  It has been talked about quite a bit and I do believe it is on the schedule for testing.  But you can't be 100% sure what it will do until it is tested.  Lead can have different hardness depending on antimony content, etc.

Maybe we should ask Old Painless to shoot up some windshields and car doors with Partitions.

Just about any .223 bullet will put holes through a windshield or car doors.  But shooting them up doesn't show what it will do to flesh after encounters with such barriers.  Hence the need for testing with ballistic gel on the other side of the barrier.

Nosler Partitions have been penetrating large game animals from one side to the other through bone, muscle, fat, skin, and viscera pretty reliably since 1946.

The TBBC was designed as a hunting bullet to compete with Partitions and is a relatively new Johnny-Come-Lately.

Why is it so hard to accept the real world experience of so many hundreds of thousands of hunters?  Yeah, they aren't shooting people through glass or sheetmetal, but they are killing animals much larger and tougher than humans reliably with one shot that is hardly ever recovered.

Quoted: Nosler Partitions have been penetrating large game animals from one side to the other through bone, muscle, fat, skin, and viscera pretty reliably since 1946. The TBBC was designed as a hunting bullet to compete with Partitions and is a relatively new Johnny-Come-Lately. Why is it so hard to accept the real world experience of so many hundreds of thousands of hunters?  Yeah, they aren't shooting people through glass or sheetmetal, but they are killing animals much larger and tougher than humans reliably with one shot that is hardly ever recovered.

Don't be offended, I think in the big picture we are agreeing.  I have been on the edge of my seat for them to be tested for a long time.  I agree they'll probably do great through barriers, just by looking at the bullet construction.  All I'm saying is you don't know 100% for sure what it will do through a certain medium until you try it.  And that goes for just about invention you could conceive of.

Agreed.

there is a reason why God had created "RELOADING"......
swo_daddy's right 99.99% of LE ammo is just a 'Hype' or a term like GUN CONTROL that antigunnist love to use...for example: hornady TAP ammo......it uses the same bullets that us reloaders shoot to love, but then the name TAP is added and now its LE ammo............another one is winchesters black talon that was discontinued because of dumbasses&things movies show
....I can guarantee that if you load ur own ammo using nosler 60gr partitions/ 53gr barnes X or barnes new 70gr X that's comming out- it'll out perform the stuff Federal loads for LE...you can use it for hunting and if you want- as a shtf ammo

Quoted:

He is right, you know.

I buy a lot of Hornady remanufactured match ammo loaded with the Hornady 75 gr HPBT @ 2750 fps.  It's the same EXACT bullet in Hornday's TAP going as fast or faster.

But because it's not TAP/LE/unobtainium, no one gets excited about it.  It will, however, perform as well or better as TAP, and I have no problem finding it for sale.  In fact, the dealer who sells it only sells in case (1K rounds) lots.

I keep a 20 round mag loaded with them for social situations.

What is the source for cannelured 75 grain OTM bullets?  TAP uses cannelured bullets and most match 75 grain are uncannelured.

Quoted: What is the source for cannelured 75 grain OTM bullets?  TAP uses cannelured bullets and most match 75 grain are uncannelured.

Why is the cannelure important?  If you are reloading, just use a Lee FCD and run .002 - .003 neck tension and you'll be fine with respect to functional reliability, i.e., no setback upon chambering.  Ammo Oracle states there's no terminal perfromance difference between cannelured and un-cannelured 75 grain OTM bullets.

Hornady TAP 75gr uses a clean burning temperature insensitve powder that gives very little flash.  The brass is new and the primer is crimped.  It is loaded consistently one round to the next.  The bullet is a precision made match projectile, cannelured and crimped in place.

There's nothing "special" about it that can't be replicated, its just most don't do it all.  Best bet is handloads, which unless you send off your brass to be prepped, primed and crimped does not have a crimped primer.  Better get a cannelure tool too.

It is true you do not NEED a cannelure if you have good neck tension and maybe a small crimp.  But it doesn't hurt and it makes the complainers hush.  From a terminal ballistics standpoint it's not going to make the bullet break up more or create a larger wound profile.  But it MAY help it break up at a slightly lower velocity, again it certainly won't hurt.

Still, I don't get what is not to like about this ammunition?  It's relatively cheap for what you are getting.

Why does Federal's LE HST line of pistol ammunition use a different bullet than the rest of their personal defense loads?  Winchester's RA LE line of pistol ammo also features a bullet not made widely available to the general public.  Both outperform any  other pistol ammunition offered in their respective lines.  Sure there are phony ammunition scams and marketing.  Some "LE"  marketed ammo is not that great, no doubt about that.  But some are all around great and priced cheaply.

Hey, how many of you have Hornady's new TAP 62gr barrier load?  Or ever seen the bullet for that matter?  LEO's don't count!

SWO, I had to chuckle.  I can relate.  Yet, I respect their motives.  But sometimes you just gotta go with what you believe and let go of all the science.  Even if they flame you.