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Posted: 2/17/2003 2:07:58 PM EDT
[#1]
How much of a price increase are we talking about over their standard loads?
How about cannelures on the 75gr BTHP? I know the military gets them...can we? I know Sierra won't even think about adding them. |
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Posted: 2/17/2003 4:13:41 PM EDT
[#2]
Brou - not sure on the $ increase...
Not much beyond what the 'normal'. I would guess (and all it is a guess) less than an extra $50/k. It seems that is BH was going to do a couple hundred K run for the USMC or other interested party a 20k more would not be a added difficulty for them I made mention fo the price just so some don't come in expecting to get a M193 price on this and order 5+K. Two of the BH pers I spoke to related that it is the bullet manufacturers supply not BH, that control the cannelure. Yeah, Sierra would not want to do anything that might affect the paperpunching abilities of the MK. -Kevin |
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Posted: 2/17/2003 9:48:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Count me in for 1-2K.
-Troy |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 4:35:42 AM EDT
[#4]
I'm in for 500-1000
EDITED to say- If 1K is the minimum, I'll order 1K- no problem. Also, I voted for the 75gr. |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 9:58:22 AM EDT
[#5]
I already have a home for 5-10k dependant upon both price and what will send us above the 20k minimun.
- alos added a poll so we can fine tune the 'AR15.com SHTF selected ammo" |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 10:22:02 AM EDT
[#6]
At the risk of getting flamed for not having the Ammo FAQ committed to memory. ("No excuse sir!" What, if any, of a performance difference is there between the 75 gr and 77 gr bullets in 1:8 and 1:9 twist barrels?
My M4+ (14.5" heavy barrel w/Vortex) has the usual Bushmaster 1:9 twist whereas my new SPR clone has the 1:8 twist. If I could have ammo combatibility for both weapons then that would sway my decision. If both bullets are No Go's for the BM 1:9 barrel, then whatever performs best in the 1:8 gets my nod. |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 11:35:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Stony,
the 77gr Nosler has the best performance in gel I have seen - the 75gr Hornady is very close. The 77gr SMK flies better (slightly) - but has a longer neck in gel I dont think any are going to work in a 1:9 - but the 1:8 will do well with them. |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 3:02:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Brou and CT- the the 75 grain with cannelure will be readily available in the next few weeks if not sooner.
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Posted: 2/18/2003 3:33:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Mike - I will shoot you an email off line
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Posted: 2/18/2003 4:01:00 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm in for at least 1k. I voted for the 75gr Hornady TAP but I'll purchase whatever is produced. I'll buy upto another 1k depending on price and my available funds.
Edited on CT's request for further clarification. |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 4:24:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Got the email Kev- shot one back. To follow up that ,if you need I will be in for several thousand.
Brouhaha- Have you tested the 75 w/cannelure yet? If not shoot me an email with a shipping address and the number of rounds you need to test. The only thing I ask is permission to use the results when justifying ammunition changovers to either the 75 or 77 grain. Mike T |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 5:03:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Brouhaha- Have you tested the 75 w/cannelure yet? If not shoot me an email with a shipping address and the number of rounds you need to test. The only thing I ask is permission to use the results when justifying ammunition changovers to either the 75 or 77 grain. E-mail incoming |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 6:20:34 PM EDT
[#13]
I am in for 1k of the 75gr or 77gr
Whichever one that comes out on top... |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 7:12:46 PM EDT
[#14]
If you hold off on a purchase until the end of Feb we will have a useful surprise for you.
Stay tuned! |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 9:03:17 PM EDT
[#15]
I wonder if you can get Ammoman on this.
Sooner or later, there will those who will get 1:8 Twist uppers or barrels and would want to order and pay a business price. |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 9:09:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Tatjana - okay we can hold.
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Posted: 2/18/2003 9:14:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Maybe I'm being a little dense today, but what's the OTM stand for?
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Posted: 2/18/2003 9:19:30 PM EDT
[#18]
O -Open
T -Tip M -Match |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 9:43:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Okay I really don't give a rats ass what your opinion is unless you plan on buying some. IMHO - and I think I am better informed about ammo than 99.9% of this board I think the 77gr Nosler is likely a better round. Am I missing something here? This post is after your response to my question. If you took my lack of response as expressing an opinion one way or the other, that was not my intent. You answered my question and I didn't see the need to comment. |
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Posted: 2/18/2003 10:10:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Stony,
That was not directed to you - it was to all those who voted in the poll w/o the common decency to say who or what they were. The poll was for potential purchasers. Not for someone to give a gee well Delta uses the 75gr so I must have that... I took your request as an honest desire to get the best system. I will do my best to answer any questions - if they plan on getting ammo or not. Or I will forward the question to those more qualified. -Kevin |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 1:04:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Has anyone tried these rounds at longer ranges? Perhaps 300-600 yards? Just curious how they perform accuracy wise against SMK and if they are effective at those ranges.
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Posted: 2/19/2003 3:15:27 AM EDT
[#22]
I thought I would chime in a second:
I'm glad you're holding off on the purchase. Personally, I started the testing quest last year to try and find the .223/5.56 round with the best defensive properties for my use. (Fired from 16" barrel, good terminal ballistics out to around 200 meters, as damaging to tissue as possible, cost effective enough to stock ~3500 rounds and still shoot ~1000-2000 rounds a year). Based on a series of experiments and other data I've been collecting I think I've narrowed the field to: 100 grain OTM. 77 grain SMK. 77 grain Nosler. 75 grain TAP. 55 grain M193. Leaders right now in my view are 75 TAP, 77 grain Nosler. I'm not yet convinced Nosler is better than TAP, but some work we are planning for the next few weeks should throw me down on one side of the fence or the other. Hopefully everyone will stay tuned! I'm probably going to be in for ~3500 of whatever I end up selecting. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 7:02:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Canadian Tactical, thanks for the response. I am partially guilty then. I did vote in the poll after you gave me your first response, yet I didn't say "count me in for X amount." (Bad Stony!)
Also, would this be red or blue box? I'm in either way, just curious. Finally, are you with the PPLI? Tat, the ammo muse, you have to be thrown on one side of the fence? A simple push isn't enough? I'm not going to say any more regarding that. I'm sure I'm not alone in eagerly awaiting your research results. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 7:06:52 AM EDT
[#24]
Out of curiosity (and ignorance), is the 75 gr Hornady the TAP round?
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Posted: 2/19/2003 7:40:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Out of curiosity (and ignorance), is the 75 gr Hornady the TAP round? Yes. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 11:17:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Out of curiosity (and ignorance), is the 75 gr Hornady the TAP round? The 75gr Hornady TAP round is loaded with the exact same 75gr Hornady BTHP match round that would be used in the Black Hills load, should that be the selected load. -Troy |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 1:31:37 PM EDT
[#27]
If it stays under $20 for a box of 50 I'd go for 100-150 now to test it. If it works for me I'd go for maybe another 500-1000 next year.
Since there seems to be a chance of the 75gr working in a 20" 1/9 and not for the 77g I'd opt for 75gr. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 1:58:11 PM EDT
[#28]
I think the min order will be 1K
That will be up to Tommy but... Note it will be new brass as BH won't do NATO pressure in reloads. If you only want to dabble for testing - I suggest trying to find friends and go in with them. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 2:19:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I thought I would chime in a second: field to: 100 grain OTM. OTM ??? |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 2:23:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: I thought I would chime in a second: field to: 100 grain OTM. OTM ??? Open Tip Match. A more PC term for HP. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 3:00:18 PM EDT
[#31]
I think the min order will be 1K Quick tally of the post so far looks like you have 10-18k accounted for. |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 5:33:55 PM EDT
[#32]
I voted and am 'in' for a minimum of 1k.
REALLY looking forward to Tat-n-Company's (Brou) upcoming tests on this topic. My personal hope is for the 75 grain, as it does stabilize out of a 1-9" twist 16" barrel at my altitude (4500 ft asl), but the 77 grain does not. cheers tire iron |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 6:34:41 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm awaiting delivery of a 16" 1/9 upper, so I'll be testing the 75 Hornady this spring (winter shoots in WI are a bitch, so I'm waiting). If the bullet stabilizes for me, I'd take 1K. I don't know if that fits your timetable (and I don't know whether Armalite will actually deliver my new upper in a chop-chop fashion). Because my purchase would be contingent, I didn't vote.
Rifleman308 |
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Posted: 2/19/2003 7:00:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Ok I got asked to clarify this.
If you are interested please vote - and make a post - what type and quantity - if you are not firmly comitted just say --> depenedant upon... price - time frame - ammo fit with wpn etc, or how you feel that morning [:o)]. I got got torqued cause it looks like people enter a topic and vote then leave - leaving a skewed or unintelligable results. |
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Posted: 2/20/2003 3:57:35 AM EDT
[#35]
I voted, 75 hornady, but not really bothered as to the bullet. Let the ones who know make that decision. Would certainly take a 1000.
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Posted: 2/20/2003 4:48:35 AM EDT
[#36]
I don't need exact numbers but would $550 for 1000 rounds be a good ballpark figure to plan around?
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Posted: 2/20/2003 5:10:18 AM EDT
[#37]
Ahab,
I would say that would the extreme edge of high (IMO) If it higher than that... Well I will be buying a lot less... |
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Posted: 2/20/2003 5:47:19 AM EDT
[#38]
I voted for the "any, it does not bother me" category, as I have a 1 in 7 14.5" barrel and figure I can use either the 75, the 77, or (hopefully) the 100 grain.
Also, I would be interested in purchasing 1k of whatever the pros think is best. I have read the ammo faq, but don't remember if the Nosler, TAP, cannelure, & NATO pressures were addressed in terms of their effectiveness as defensive rounds. If not, please point me in the right direction. If so, flame away, and I will go back and read it again. |
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Posted: 2/20/2003 10:53:55 PM EDT
[#39]
I will take 2000 rounds of 75 gr Hornady.
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Posted: 2/21/2003 8:40:49 AM EDT
[#40]
I would do a 500 to 1000 round order, as long as the price was within reason...
I currently have a 1 in 9 16" barrel, so I would need 75gr stuff. JCraig [url]www.mcw-tech.com[/url] |
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Posted: 2/21/2003 4:08:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Understand that many people have had problems with the 75gr ammo not being stabilized sufficiently in 1:9 barrels (even 20" 1:9 barrels). Some folks have reported successes with 16" 1:9s, though. The point is: you would be buying this ammo "at your own risk" if it didn't work in your rifle. Being a special order, you probably wouldn't be able to return it.
Just want to make sure that this issue is clearly spelled out. We'll try to test this combo too, but that won't happen until after all the orders are in. -Troy |
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Posted: 2/21/2003 11:14:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Im in for whatever the minimum order will be with either the 75 or 77 Nosler. I dont want the Sierra bullet.
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Posted: 2/22/2003 1:41:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Interesting thread, very interesting. I would love to get involved as I have a Colt Match Target HBAR 1/7 20" that I need a good load for. However the increased cost of this ammo over what I have been accustomed to getting blue box re-man for may put me below the minimum purchase at this time.
From what I have seen, the Black Hills 75 gr load they are offering now does really well out to 100 yards, maybe farther with a 20" barrel. I don't really plan to ever be using a .223 in excess of 200 yards anyway, so will this new mil-spec loaded round really be that much better to justify the added cost? I don't wanna interfere with anyone who does want this ammo, so I will bow out if the minimum purchase is more than 500 rds. That's all I could probably afford at once. But I am greatful that someone is working to bring this type of quality ammo to the civilian market. I guess I better start saving and scraping so I can get in on this! |
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Posted: 2/24/2003 6:11:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: ... people have had problems with the 75gr ammo not being stabilized sufficiently in 1:9 barrels ... you would be buying this ammo "at your own risk" ... Troy, Thanks for the heads up. If it don't work I could sell it or pack it away until I get a barrel that will shoot it. I want to upgrade to a 1:7 barrel, but until some one starts making one (chrome lined) I can afford I will have to wait... JCraig [url]www.mcw-tech.com[/url] |
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Posted: 2/24/2003 11:23:31 AM EDT
[#45]
I bought my Bushmaster 1/7 twist, chrome lined, M4 barrel for $175 delivered. Thats less than a 1/9 twist barrel direct from Bushmaster.
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Posted: 2/24/2003 1:59:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: I bought my Bushmaster 1/7 twist, chrome lined, M4 barrel for $175 delivered. Thats less than a 1/9 twist barrel direct from Bushmaster. If you don't mind me asking, where did you get a deal like that? |
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Posted: 2/24/2003 6:55:18 PM EDT
[#47]
CT--
I voted also, but didn't identify myself. I would be in for some, but it would be dependant on the cost and how much I have after whatever school costs I have to pay. Didn't mean to vote w/out have a "firm" commitment. Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/24/2003 6:58:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Voting w/o firm commitment is okay I want to know what people want.
Any the vote is getting irrelevant - for when Tat and Brou test and publish we all might want to revise our ideas. -Kevin |
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Posted: 2/24/2003 7:03:43 PM EDT
[#49]
About the only other reservation I have (this is where TATJANA and BROU's testing will come in handy) is whether I need to rebarrel my Dissipator to a 1x7 barrel. I do have a second lower w/out an upper that I was thinking of purchasing a 1x7 Colt upper or a Bushy, if they make such a barrel (Can't recall of the top of my head if they do or don't).
The potential performance improvement over the vernerable M193 ammo is simply too much to ignore. |
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Posted: 2/27/2003 3:48:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Okay so between board oders and side emails
we have 27K so far. Not including maybe's T&B hurry up... |
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