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Wow Shooting_Sigs, that's some damn good shootin. Was that done with the EOTech and magnifier?
I just got my Spikes upper with LW barrel today. I'm going to try to go to the range tomorrow and shoot some targets. I sure hope I can turn in a target like that. :) |
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VASCAR2,
That was the best one for the day . I added another target from a different day below at 50 yrds.. The first shot in the 8 ring low was just me not the gun, then i had 3 shots group fairly good. The white on the bottom of the target is not a hole shot in it , I don't know where that came from. I am trying a few different kinds of ammo to see what it likes. CCI MIni Mags & Winchester Super X shoot prety nice grops as well. MustangGreg66, That was with the Eotech and Magnifier. Good luck with yours, and hope you enjoy it .They are alot of fun to shoot. http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214/buckmaster07/620a3e96.jpg |
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Very Good thread. It has a lot of info in it to help people like me who are shopping.
MAHA |
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Amazing Shooting Dave!
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Mahamotorworks: I hope that this will grow to include all the options and information members will need to make an informed choice with confidence when they decide to buy or build an AR-22.
badazzar15: Thanx for the compliment. The pressure's just beginning for me. I believe I'm gonna need to do some tricking out on the lower I'm using. Next step for the Lothar Walther is 50 yards, trying for 5 shot groups in less than 1/2". Then, if I live long enough 100 yards in less than 1". That one will be all on me. The rifle should be up for it. I have to find the right ammo. So I'm the unknown factor there. It'll be a while before I can accomplish all of that. I'd like to go to the outdoor range in Hernando County or Manatee after the temperatures come down a little. Since it's 60 or 70 miles one way to either, I'll be spending the day and shooting more than 22's. My next plan is to test the Green Mountain Upper with some of the better ammo. I'd like to see how the Eley and the CCI Green Tag work with it. I'm also working on some better targets that I can make on my computer, possibly with a small area next to each target for an abbreviated report. The Shoot-N-See's are expensive to use for 5 shot groups. SpecOps-13 / Dave |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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For targets, get some either commercially printed ones, or find a source of tagboard to print your own. Shoot-N-C's are good for sighting, not for precision. I have also used cardstock for printing targets. You can find it in a 67lbs and 110lbs variety.
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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AzizaVFR: The card stock sounds like the way to go. Commercially available targets just don't seem to fit my plan. The Shoot-N-See targets are great as you say for sighting in but trying to photograph the results with a glare is a PITA. Thanx for the suggestions.
I picked up some CCI Standard Velocity Ammo to try in my next test. 25 yards with good ammo and Spike's Green Mountain Upper. CCI Green Tag just isn't available locally but I'll try some of what I have left and Eley Prime too. Which ammo will GM will like best? I'll let you know, soon. SpecOps-13 |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Thank you for all your time and testing. This thread gets checked daily.
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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I just had to use this post number here, it's 1000. Tactical Solutions is possibly offering a special group buy on a Custom SBX Barreled Upper.
May even be serial numbered and have the ARFCOM Logo, Guess which serial # I've asked for...... 13 I've heard that these barrels are pretty accurate, competition for the Lothar Walther, maybe we'll see in the not so distant future. My attempt at a target removed to save space, See AzizaVFR post #18 below with a link to a pdf file containing 3 targets. The white center with the Bold Black outline seems to be the best for me @ 25 yards so far. SpecOps-13 |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Printed out okay.
What size is the inner and outer rings when you print? When I print to fit the page I get inner just under 1" and outer just under 2". When I print it actual size I get inner at 1" and outer at 2 1/8". All measurements approximate as I'm using a yardstick and just got home from 1st day of our gunshow. Thanks |
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Shot last weekend at German Nationals:
Prone position, 50 meters, iron sights, unsupported, 10 ring is 1.33" http://tetragun.de/AR15_22_50m.gif My setup: OlyArms Lower, Chip McCormick drop in trigger, dedicated .22 upper with Ciener bolt, Lothar Walther barrel, Lyman sights. Ammo was RWS Rifle Match "S" Cheers, Michael |
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Spec,
Here is a target I made for a different challenge. It is actually used for a 25 yard off-hand shooting position, doing 5-shot groups per bullseye. The inner bull is 1.25", while the outer ring is 2" http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=666082&dn=y There are three versions within the PDF, one with a full black ring, one with a 50% grey fill, and the last one with a 25% grey fill. |
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Well, this is just terrific. I just got my first AR together, not even sighted in yet (waiting for the big brown truck of goodness to deliver my cleaning kit) and after bumping into this I'm 99.9% convinced that I want to buy a 22 upper to go plinkning on the cheap!
Cheapest brass .223 (brass is a requirement for future reloading) I can find delivered is $.38 per, not including delivery,(and that's a pretty good deal, all things considered!) but .22 is .04 delivered!! Thats nearly 10 times as much fun per dollar! That would give me plenty of range time/trigger time (sorely needed for this noob) Now, please, someone convince me that my wallet can handle this! |
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First post. Shot my 6920 with the CMMG conversion. 1/7 twist so obviously not ideal, but groups were touching at 25 yds with mini mags. Went to clean it and noticed the fouling was like sand? is that normal? Or is there something else going on? Cleaned up ok, but I certainly don't want to mess up an expensive rifle to save money on ammo.
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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oilstain: Hope my IM was convincing. It doesn't take long to pay for itself.
Starbelly: Depends on the ammo you were using what the residue left behind will look like. Never noticed CCI Mini Mags leaving a sand residue behind???? I can't think of anything else that may have caused it. As long as it cleaned up alright.... Try some Aguila SSS 60gr when you want to make some tight groups. It worked great for me in the 1:7" Colt. BTW, Welcome to ARFCOM to both of you...... Spec |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
oilstain: Hope my IM was convincing. It doesn't take long to pay for itself. BTW, Welcome to ARFCOM to both of you...... Spec Thanks for the welcome and the IM. It's that kind of thinking that gets me into trouble, what's the quote? Oh yeah: "We're going broke saving this much money!" |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Seems I keep myself broke, otherwise my Health Care Providers are buying those Dr Truck Things, called Escalade.
If Teens and Geriatrics would quit running into me, I could stop the Dr. part. Women go broke saving money. "It was on Sale". Men go broke, either paying those bills or having too much fun. I prefer the latter. I have a bigger problem, I don't know which rifle to shoot this weekend. nothing I really need to test. I may actually take a Bulk pack of Federal and just totally frag a target. see how long it takes to shoot 550 rounds with reloading mags in the mix. That should totally piss the range master and everyone else totally off. I hope there's a Homeland Security Qualification going on. They can't hit the target worth a crap anyway. I still have the bullet fragments from where one of them hit me with a ricochet. They destroy the target frames, ceiling tiles, walls and floor quite well. God help us with people like that defending us. Have a great weekend, Spec |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Just recieved an aluminum Velocity Firearms dedicated 22lr upper, mated it to a Delton lower..nice set up except the bolt will not engage into full battery (there is a small gap) when charged, about 70% of the time, any constructive comments on what the problem may be will be greatly appreciated..the unit was cleaned and lubed to no avail..wanted to shoot it on sunday, but now i have to wait to call Velocity on monday to see whats up?? great forum..thx
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Originally Posted By ranbo1213:
Just recieved an aluminum Velocity Firearms dedicated 22lr upper, mated it to a Delton lower..nice set up except the bolt will not engage into full battery (there is a small gap) when charged, about 70% of the time, any constructive comments on what the problem may be will be greatly appreciated..the unit was cleaned and lubed to no avail..wanted to shoot it on sunday, but now i have to wait to call Velocity on monday to see whats up?? great forum..thx I've seen Ciener kits do this same thing and the Velocity upper uses a modified Ciener kit. There are several things that could be causing this and I'll try to list some of the ones I've found. With the metal 10 Round mag or BDM type mag could be dragging on the bottom of the bolt. You can check this to see fi the bolt continually goes into battery with no magazine after firing single rounds. If its a problem with Ciener metal mag you can use pliers to adjust the lip height. On BDM mags a little sandpaper to lower the lips till the bolt clears. Check the cut out on the side of the barrel for the extractor to ride when the bolt goes closed. The bolt should drop freely into battery with the upper and lower apart and no recoil spring. Make sure your not using a gas buster charging handle or are having the bolt drag on the charging handle. Make sure the bolt is not dragging on the bolt stop or hammer when cycling. A couple of friends bought velocity uppers and the recoil springs were junk. They fixed their uppers by buying a Lakeside spring kit from Black Dog Machine. They cut one spring till they had their uppers functioning with their preferred ammo. The two velocity uppers I've been around were pretty accurate and once tweaked by their owners functioned pretty good. If you have to order springs from Black Dog Machine its a good idea to get a replacement firing pin. With a standard weight hammer the firing pins break after only a few thousand rounds. Good luck I hope you get your upper sorted out. |
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Spec,
Being an amateur machinist and one that uses calipers a great deal will have to say your caliper needs to be zero'ed. The typical round for a.22LR is 0224" in diameter. Even just below the case mouth should measure 0.224" http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/22_long_rifle.svg/180px-22_long_rifle.svg.pngg Also, Shoot-N-C's are the worst thing to measure. Get a pack of targets from Walmart using the beige tagboard, then use the following link for accurate measuring for Center-To-Center (C-T-C). If you scan in your targets, you could also use the program OnTarget to verify group sizes and accuracy. |
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
The 0.200 group that I pictured above in my post # 958 has come under question in another post. Thank You for questioning my integrity. Someone should and I welcome it. Here's some additional info and pictures that I posted there. You decide. I'll agree that the Shoot-N-See Targets aren't the best to show group size because of the way they react when hit. They tend to leave Raggedy Ass Edges so that when they're pulled from the original target and placed on a paper towel, they aren't easy to photograph to represent the actual hits. I did the actual measurements while at the range and the target was still untouched. I would have done the photography then but others wouldn't appreciate my doing that. I've mentioned the problem with representative targets here in this post and the fact that I'm looking for one more easily photographed.. I'm not claiming a world title for this group, it would serve no purpose for me to cheat, fib or lie. I tried to get the best photographs I could, in enough variety that even I can see where your doubt comes from. The left picture shows 0.200 marked by 2 dots with a ball point pen. I used the strongest magnifiers I have and an actual 22 bullet to line up with the holes to accurately mark these. The center picture shows that the bullet covers those dots and is setting off the surface on top of the Caliper. The bullet measures 0.225 at the point that it covers the 2 dots. The right picture shows the bullet pushed to the point into the caliper where it measures 0.200. The other pictures that I posted had an "O" that I placed in the vicinity of the hits using my computer. Obviously that wasn't accurate enough. They are actually too far apart. If I lay 2 bullets tip to tip facing each other side by side, the hole is totally hidden, raggedy edges included. I don't know what else I can do to prove my case. I'd offer to send you the actual target but I don't believe I need to defend myself to that extreme. If I do then I'm of no use to the people of this site and need to quit posting. I serve no good purpose. Even if I produce witness's to the actual measurement at the range, Their authenticity could be questioned. Sincerely, SpecOps-13 http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd205/specops-13/TargetProof.jpg Added: I left the 0.0005 on the caliper in the first 2 pictures just to see if someone picks up on that. I took 40 pictures and felt the lighting and reflection on this one were as good as I can get. If you compare closely, you can see that the bullets by far overlap the actual holes. http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd205/specops-13/ExtremeBlowUp.jpg IMHO: My take on all this is that the group is very small and something for all of us to strive for. Whatever the actual group size - it is small and good shooting. Maybe we need to get different targets but I think we are all on the right track to see which combos of barrels, ammo and sighting systems produce the tightest groups. |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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MikeS1970: Thank you for advise that we should take to heart....... And, I will Soon.
Sincerely. SpecOps-13 The only reason I mentioned that the group had been questioned is that I felt I could better explain and show how the measurements were made. Now. I'm under question as are my digital caliper, Shoot-N-See Targets and the actual diameter of a fired bullet. My caliper is Zeroed prior to every measurement I make. They matched exactly with the calipers used on the line of Federal Ammunition. They measure exactly the same dimensions as the machinist who does prototypes of AR Accessories for me. Those parts work and fit perfectly fine. This group measures 0.200 period, center line to center of the 2 worst hits. I explained and showed that when 2, 22 rounds are placed side by side, they more than cover the holes in the target. 2 cases sides together measure 0.448. Half of that is 0.224 which covers the dots marking the center to center hits as shown in the picture. My measurement isn't from the outside of the bullet hits, It is from the center, to the center of the 2 farthest hits. The barrel squeezes the bullet down in size as it passes through. I would expect that through a Lothar Walther it would be down to 0.218 or so, considering this is a match quality barrel. That would make the outsides of the holes at 0.418 or very close to that. Minus half of the 0,218 for each of the 2 bullets. That makes 0.200 center to center. I explained how the target was measured..... The actual holes in the Shoot-N-See measured 0.330. If I use that measurement the actual center to center group size is 0.112 but I allowed for error where the edges of the hits didn't totally tear the Shoot-N-See off cleanly when they passed through. I'm working on finding better targets for representation purposes, I've already used about every target imaginable in my lifetime. I'm doing a test and learn thing here and will make my own or test what others send me. When I exhaust those, I may well decide to use a standard target or I may not. This post is about testing and experimenting to find better ways to improve the AR-22 experience. I'm over defending my measurement. As I said, I'm not applying for a world title from this. I've explained and shown how the measurements were made from every angle I can imagine. If others wish to continue saying that I'm wrong, you're on their own. I'll rely on those who see the pictures and read my explanation to decide for themselves. I'm past this and I'm going to get on with with what I've always intended intend to do with this post, help others...... Spec. |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Spec,
Here are a couple of targets I used for testing two of my bolt rifles with cheap ammo. You shoot four groups of five rounds, plus four measuring shots. You average your measuring shots to give you the bullet diameter. For your groups, measure the farthest distance between shots. Take that measurement, then subtract the bullet diameter for a true center-to-center group distance. http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/BB_Federal_510.jpg http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/W52_SK_Standard_Plus.jpg Hope this helps to give a visual to the words above. |
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I tested the Spikes Tactical .22 kit today, and I must say I'm happy with it. I used the BDM mag that came with it.
The rifle I installed it on was a 16" CM 1x9, mid-length. My first mag downrange was Fed Bulk pack, and it was a jam-o-matic. At least half stove-piped, but fed the next round into the chamber every time. Then I ran through 100 rounds of CCI Mini-Mags, same results. Lots of stovepipes. When I switched back to the Fed Bulk pack, it ran 100% for the rest of the day (approx 300 rounds). I wasn't expecting it to be 100% right out of the gate, and I figured after about 200 rounds it would even out. It likes the Federal Bulk Pack, and I haven't put anymore Mini-Mags through it. Overall, I'm extremely happy about it. Once it got through its "break in" period, it ran excellent. Today was more of a function check than anything, so I wasn't too concerned with accuracy. I shot it on the 50 yard line at a 100M silhouette target, and most of them hit black with an unmagnified optic. I would recommend a loader, because it tore up my fingers after re-loading the magazine all day. VERY easy to clean. |
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"Those who make peacefull revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."
"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, then it doesn't deserve to have any." |
When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Long story short, Tom (badazzar15) of Spike's put together an all out custom lower for me, at my request. I picked it up at the end of last week. While I was there Tom handed me a Lothar Walther 18" Bull Barrel Upper he'd built for himself. It's one of a kind right now. He wants it back but wanted me to take it and test it. It may be available to everyone if there's enough interest.
For the long story, if you haven't already and want to read it. The first post in this link will tell you more than you wanted to know: my post # 1118 http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=461769 I wanted to test my Spike's Built Lower and Preliminary test badazzar15's Lothar Walther Bull Barrel Upper. Thoughts of waiting until I find just the right scope and Lothar Walther recommended ammo were killing me. So I took a plastic riser that was still in the box and put it on Tom's upper. I pulled an old Redfield 1-3/4 to 5 Teleview Scope that I've got on another rifle with a high ride upper receiver and put the 2 together. Looked like Crap with the Tan Riser but GTG for today. Set the Scope to 4x and got it close to being zeroed at 25 yards with CCI Green Tag. I tried the Eley Match Pistol but it just wouldn't group as tight as the CCI. The 5 shot groups aren't bad for a start. The range had some antique NRA approved 75 ft. small bore rifle targets. Rather than get in a bind again over how big or small the groups are, they're referenced to the size of a dime. Until I can find the software to do the measurements for me. Repost of the pictures of the lower and rifle. I post pictures of the rifle with the scope when I find what I'm looking for. Not the setup I used today. Spec |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Until I can find the software to do the measurements for me.
Spec Well you did ask nicely... OnTarget Your results: http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/Spec-13_target.jpg |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Wow, is that cool software or what. You're my best buddy. Cool.
Now I only have to wake up so I understand what just happened, Thank You AzizaVFR. I forgot to mention the lower that Tom / Spike's built for me. There's no take up, no over travel with the Wilson Combat Trigger Pack. The pull measures right at 4 lbs. It's clean and crisp The Magpul ACS works as good as it looks. I want to thank everyone at Spike's who had a hand in putting it together. Special thanks for working my logo to make it look so good. Special thanks to Tom for taking the time to make it happen. SO-13 PS: ADDED, LW recommended Fiocche? (40 gr), Eley? (40 gr), Federal Match, and Wolf MT. |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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Everyone of those rounds are subsonic match ammo at sea level. It sounds like Tom has that recoil spring for the bolt set just right.
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After speaking with Tom on several IM's, I called up Spikes this morning and special ordered the "SpecOps" Bull Barrel. Its a LW 18", 1:16 twist, stainless, target crowned dedicated barrel. I should have it in a couple of weeks. Same barrel SO-13 is testing.
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Nice groups! What's the measurements center-to-center? Just kidding! How far were you shooting? 25 yards or 50 yards? What's the magnification on your scope and what did you have it set on when you shot those groups? Thanks...keep up the good work.
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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I've tried the On Target program. I come up with different figures all the time.
I need to really study it some more before I start making claims. The bull on the 6 targets at the top is 5/16", guess from there. The Scope is a Pentax Whitetails Unlimited 4.5 - 14x 42mm. set to 5x I was shooting at 25 yards. I saw an Old Buddy Friday night who wants me to shot at his range. That'll get me out to 50 yards without making an entire day of driving and shooting. Still hopeful to gain access to a private range but that all depends on a middleman getting me an introduction. That would get me to ranges that a 22 isn't capable of. Spec |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever...... Green has become a Very Scary Color.......
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yeah thats why i like my inlaws owning a 178ac farm. we set up the targets and walk off 50yrds, 100yds, and yesterday we stretched out to 150. If we had the 4wheeler to go check targets or a decent spotting scope we would have gone back farther. i was grouping 1.5" at 150 balancing my pmag on the tailgate
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That is one great looking lower! I also really like the American Defense mount. Nice groups also.
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I've read all 6 pages, but afa considering a conversion i don't know which to go with Spikes or CMMG...advise please...paticularlly from those who have run both
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An ambient light glows from the bubble wrap, In the distance you can hear whispers of angels singing, getting louder as upper/lower/BCG assembled into one. Shazam!-BCM- maker of SEXY ARs
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Originally Posted By PreachermanMATT:
I've read all 6 pages, but afa considering a conversion i don't know which to go with Spikes or CMMG...advise please...paticularlly from those who have run both I dont think you are going to get a right/wrong answer with that question. Lots of guys swear by one or the other or even both. I've owned both and still have one of each w/no complaints.. |
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Ever see a lion after he eats a zebra? -- MrClean4Hire
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Originally Posted By PreachermanMATT:
I've read all 6 pages, but afa considering a conversion i don't know which to go with Spikes or CMMG...advise please...paticularlly from those who have run both I'm in a similar quandary, I've decided to get a dedicated .22 upper. Now, which one? CMMG - not the best deal, but I really like my other CMMG stuff Spikes - lots of options, can get one of those super accurate barrels, but a bit pricey by the time you add it all up! Non-arfcom-approved Tactical Solutions group buy Custom SBX Barreled Upper - IF this barrel could be competition for the Spikes w/upgraded barrel, this is a super deal. I'm so confused! |
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I am looking at the same thing. I am considering conversion, or full upper. Money is the main concern right now. I would love to have the Spike's LW barrel upper. But it is really expensive.
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Originally Posted By ddn3f:
I am looking at the same thing. I am considering conversion, or full upper. Money is the main concern right now. I would love to have the Spike's LW barrel upper. But it is really expensive. It's more expensive, yes. BUT it appears to be totally worth it. I'm waiting on finding out if the newcomer's product is comparable...or at least close. If it isn't, then it's a no brainer, really. |
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I thought about it for a long time before I decided to get just the spikes conversion and use it on a m16a1 upper. I am happy with the choice as that it keeps a 1" group at 50yds and the ability too quickly switch the upper back to a 5.56. I also got real lucky in that the battle sight for the 5.56 also left me dead on at 25yds with the 22s, this is not the standard though and most will have to adjust their sights. If you are wanting to shoot some serious groups though get a dedicated upper and don't look back, myself however have plenty of tac-driving 22s "that's why this money pit of a 10/22 is hanging on my wall for over a year." and only wanted an alternative to shooting .35c a round ammo out of my AR.
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"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum," Vegetius. Rage is consuming but is moderated by proper judgment
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Originally Posted By oilstain:
Originally Posted By PreachermanMATT:
I've read all 6 pages, but afa considering a conversion i don't know which to go with Spikes or CMMG...advise please...paticularlly from those who have run both I'm in a similar quandary, I've decided to get a dedicated .22 upper. Now, which one? CMMG - not the best deal, but I really like my other CMMG stuff Spikes - lots of options, can get one of those super accurate barrels, but a bit pricey by the time you add it all up! Non-arfcom-approved Tactical Solutions group buy Custom SBX Barreled Upper - IF this barrel could be competition for the Spikes w/upgraded barrel, this is a super deal. I'm so confused! I was having the same problem ($$$) so I opted for the Spikes conversion. After two range trips I loved my Spikes conversion so much that I went ahead and ordered a dedicated Spikes upper. It arrived yesterday and I can't wait to get out this weekend with it. One nice thing about the Spikes unit is you can start with the conversion bolt and later order an upper without the bolt and use the conversion bolt and save a few bucks. |
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When my Green Laser Dot appears on your Forehead.
FL, USA
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Captured Info / Thoughts from Several "Lost" Posts, I'm only reposting what
I had written, Didn't quote anyone elses input. Safer this way.. . The Never Ending Question, Which AR-22 Conversion is Best, Conversions Only I've fired many of the conversions that are available, but not all. There are some overall differences, but they all have the potential of functioning perfectly or very close to it. Except for a few "Scam Companies". Most of you associate me with Spike's Tactical. They've been the most open to having me test their products. I've also tested the CMMG SST Conversion and will soon be testing a Tactical Solutions Upper and quite possibly one for Ballistic Advantage if all goes well. Although the last 2 are dedicated uppers and we're only talking conversions in this first topic. I have 6 Cieners. I've tested them and several Oly M261's that I've had. I've even fired a Colt Conversion, once. I've come to some conclusions that may or may not be a surprise, depending on how long you've been around the 22 conversions and how much you've done to make one function properly or even better. Some work perfect right out of the package and others require a little or a lot of work to get them to that point. Give me 50 of anyone's conversions and one rifle. I'll find, to varying numbers, some that fit and function great, some that are alright or good and others that seem mediocre or terrible. Why,,,, how is this possible? All things are not created equal. Give me a different rifle and the ones that seemed to be terrible may become great and visa versa. I used to swap my Ciener Conversions from rifle to rifle till I found one that felt and shot right. Let me say that none of the reputable mainstream manufacturers that we normally discuss here purposely let bad products out their door. One Bad, written up here counteracts 1,000 Good. Some unforeseen products get by inspection and fail in the hands of the consumer... What failed and how the manufacturer deals with this is very important. It's must be quickly and correctly fixed. that's called damage control.... I know from personal experience that a picture is worth more than a thousand words. Someone can explain till they're blue in the face but until I can visualize what they're saying, I can't fix the problem. It helps immensely if you can photograph what you believe to be the problem. It saves a lot of time.. Now, how do you maximize a conversion? Make it as accurate and reliable as possible. Each manufacturer has a troubleshooting post here or a sheet that comes with the conversion. That pretty much takes care of most malfunctions. Broken or damaged parts they will replace. At this point there's something else that can be done to improve your conversion. Conversion Fit........ Each rifle, each upper, chamber and each lower are slightly different. Each chamber adapter, bolt, rail, OAL of each conversion is slightly different. Some of this is caused by the tolerance the specific manufacturer considers acceptable. If your whole bolt assembly, including the chamber adapter moves even slightly when you pull the charging handle, that can affect accuracy and reliability. If you have a buffer and spring installed and you hear a twang when you pull the trigger (Caused by the bolt assy pushing back slightly on the buffer and spring), you can bet that your bolt assembly is moving. If when you install the bolt, there is a gap one way or the other at the rear of the receiver (bolt assembly not flush with the rear face of the upper receiver) your bolt is either too tight or loose at this point. Once you close the upper and lower. even a bolt assembly that was perfect to this point could be wrong now. If you need a Gorilla to help you close the upper and lower, there's a problem. One that could damage the conversion or even the rifle. Hand fitting your bolt assembly to the rifle you're going to use it in or finding a rifle that it fits well in becomes a necessity. There are some simple fixes that anyone with common sense and a little mechanical skill can accomplish. There are many ways to make the fit right. In a topic below, I'll mention Aluminum Tape on the rear face of the bolt assembly to fill any gap for a bolt assembly that's loose. There are other ways, o-rings on the chamber adapter allow for a better fit in a broader variety of uppers and lowers. Spike's Chamber Adapters come this way. Some people use tape or heat shrink tubing on the chamber adapter to do the same. There are other factors that can be cause for concern, loose fit of the bolt on the rail (wobble) I've checked this on different manufacturers bolts, some are pretty tight and others are loose. That's again is allowed tolerance when the parts were manufactured. Not much can be done to correct this, so it can be lived with for the most part. You could likely get the Manufacturer to replace the bolt assembly if it's too bad. Who makes the best conversion? The opinions are all over this rimfire section. You can read all about it. You have to decide which has the features you like best. It's the Chevy, Dodge, Ford debate all over again. In actuality, it may be you that makes the best conversion using what a chosen manufacturer gave you. You just have to decide in your mind which one gives you the best starting point.. Who Makes the Best Conversion or Dedicated Upper Every day that I'm able I have visited the Rimfire Forum. I do my best to give answers to questions that are asked. I try to find ways to make the answers last for a while. That's a hard thing to do. Even if I put the answers in this 22 Sticky, everyone tends to ignore them after a while because they've already read through them once. I especially try to catch the Newbies questions and the questions that nobody seems to want to answer. I'm not always right and I'm always open to others enlightening me on things. I have been running tests on various 22 conversions and dedicated uppers for a few years now. At first, totally at my own expense. As time has past several manufacturers have placed their faith in me to run Test and Evaluation on their products. I've tried very hard to be impartial. To report the facts and let all of you make the decisions of what you buy. Of the manufacturers I have worked with, there hasn't been any units that were junk. I have my own preferences but you do or will too. Typically there are a few products that slip past anyone's QC. Other than that the products that I've tested are all acceptable for your consumption. I have not shared any faulty parts that I have run into with you but have contacted the manufacturers with my opinions and requests for replacement parts. This has not occurred very often. If and when they respond I continue my testing. I see every manufacturer being bashed unnecessarily over products that malfunction. Shit Happens, Try to give them a chance to fix the problem as I do. Some products are better than others, Read closely what is written and you can figure that out on your own, based on my testing results or that of others. There are many things you can do to maximize any combination you buy. Whether it be a conversion unit for a standard AR-15, a dedicated upper or complete rifle. First, make it as close to 100% functional as you can. Most of the manufacturers are very willing to help you with this. Some give written instructions with your purchase. Others assist via E-Mails, IM's or phone conversations. Try various ammunition's. I've found very acceptable results with every combination I've tested, even the 1:7" twist with a conversion unit. I once felt this was impossible to achieve. It's not the case. The way your Lower is set up can make a huge difference in accuracy also. A standard combat trigger will give you very little assistance in keeping your groups tight. You don't have to buy a $300 trigger assembly to make it better. There are many ways to maximize what you have. It involves a little work or a small expenditure on your part. The stock, grip and fore end will make a difference in how well you shoot also. They need to be right for You. Try some, see how they feel, how the sights or optics will line up. Finding the best for one rifle may be totally wrong for another. Optics, this is an extremely important factor for accuracy. I have a lot of inexpensive Scopes and Red Dots. I also have some rather expensive scopes and EOTech's. I'd be totally broke if I had great optics on every rifle. For plinking almost any will do. If you only have 1 rifle. Put the best you can afford on it, whether it be target sights, scope, combat optics or laser. Note: The finer the Dot, Laser or Crosshair the better, Fat Dots, Laser or Crosshairs will cost you accuracy. Other items can help, but I'm not going to get specific. Generalities would be anything that can make the rifle steadier or your vision easier. Bipods, slings, rests or even a target that's easier for you to see. Some of the exotic muzzle devices will have a negative effect on accuracy. KISS really applies to muzzle devices for 22's. I won't give you my opinions about which manufacturer makes the best conversions or dedicated uppers. That's your decision. Read the facts of my testing and that of others and figure that out for yourself. Possibly Improve the Accuracy and Function of Your Conversion or Dedicated Upper This will apply to a small number of conversions and dedicated uppers. Most uppers, lowers and conversion bolt assemblies fit quite well. For the few that don't: Starting with a clean bolt and rifle. Pull the charging handle slowly back while watch the chamber adapter or collar assembly on a dedicated upper. If the chamber adapter or collar moves slightly rearward it means that the bolt assembly isn't a tight fit in your upper/lower combination. This can cause a loss of accuracy that you didn't even know existed. The chamber adapter could be seated slightly different with every shot. It can also cause feeding, firing and extraction malfunctions that are difficult to isolate. Dedicated and conversions bolt assemblies are made to fit a "Nominal" upper/lower combination. Whether any hand fitting is done on the dedicated upper parts, I'm not sure. That would depend on the manufacturer and the person doing the assembly. Even if they were hand fit, your lower may be the cause of the loose fit. Manufacturing processes aren't exact, so some bolt assemblies fit quite well and others won't and will require a little modification. I've seen this bolt movement with some Ciener and CMMG Bolt Assemblies on certain AR-15 upper and lower combinations. I haven't seen this with Spike's conversions because the o-rings tend to hold the chamber adapter in place and somewhat compensate for slight tolerance variations. In fact, it may take some effort on the charging handle to get their chamber adapter out of the chamber after being fired. Depends on how many rounds you fire. There have been attempts at forcing the chamber adapters and collars to stay in position fully forward. Some will work, others haven't. CMMG uses a set screw on their dedicated upper. Many other attempts have been made to correct this. I don't know that there is a perfect "Fix All". The fix may be as simple as adding a piece of Aluminum tape like is used on air conditioning ducts to the back plate of the rail assembly. I recommend that you clean the surface well first then cut the tape as closely as possible to the shape of the "Whole" rear plate (Although the top is the most important area). This can be done with care, using an X-Acto Knife. The added thickness of the tape will put some force on the bolt assembly to stay forward, layer it if needed. This will quite possibly eliminating the light primer strikes, some FTF and FTE problems. I've dealt with several Oly M261' s but they're generally too tight and you need a Gorilla to get the upper and lower closed. Filing their rear plate in just the right places will correct the fit and make the upper and lower close easier. Don't file too much. A Fix???? May Be,,,,A Folding Stock to fix a loose 22 bolt assembly: http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_36&products_id=347 SpecOps-13 |
You've already missed what just happened, Forever......
The Green has become Red, is running down your into your eyes and the Green Laser's now shining out the back of your head..... Ooooops. |
Had my AR and CMMG Stainless .22lr conversion for just over a month and have had ZERO problems with the conversion. There is the issue of rimfire consistency, but that should and needs to be understood when using any of theses conversions. I have had maybe two or three fail to extract or feeds. I don't remember because I practice to keep shooting no matter what happens. Bad guys don't care if your system don't work. The reason I bought this kit was to practice rapid fire, and mag dumps and changes. For me it has been great. The wife also prefers to shoot the .22lr instead of the 5.56mm which means more time for us at the range.
The CMMG Conversion is well worth the cash and will being paying it's self off in another month or so. |
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