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Posted: 5/5/2009 9:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SpecOps-13]
Added 1 / 21/ 2010:
This Thread has been moving up in numbers of people reading it by about 750 to 1000 every week lately. I don't know if it also registers the count when a visitor or "Lerker" reads it. We're all here to give and receive answers. I personally enjoy helping others, so If anyone has questions or you thinking of signing up on ARFCOM. I would be happy to offer my help and AR15.com would be happy to have you join if you haven't already. You can do it for free or you can gain some nice added benefits with a membership at various levels. Trust me, this site is the biggest knowledge base for much more than just AR-15's and M16's on the planet. There are more true experts here than is imaginable. A combined total of many Millions of years experience. I learn new things every day and it's not just from those with years and years of experience. At times it will be the new guy, with 5 or 10 posts that's just started to learn who can see things so clearly that the rest of us can't. SpecOps-13 in Florida Added 8/24/2009: This topic has become a knowledge base for those getting into AR-22's. It's a mixture of testing with standard conversions, dedicated rifles, uppers and custom builds. Information about ammo used and range reports. You can read it all or skip the parts that you're not interested in. As time goes on more data will be here, in one place, to give you a better idea of what you really want to accomplish with your AR-22. And what you'll need to better meet your shooting goals. My initial testing was accomplished with WalMart Federal Bulk. As time has gone on I've found it to be inconsistent and have gone to better ammunition's than bulk for refined testing. But initially the use of the same ammo was necessary to establish an equal playing field. To set a baseline for the accuracy of various combinations. Use the knowledge gained to bring yourself up to speed more quickly and shoot better sooner. Everyone is welcome to make entries here. It's for everyone on ARFCOM. Please, lets try to stick mainly to the subject of everything 22 and accurate reporting. Lets try to let those who read draw their own conclusions based on the information here. I know, I'll be the one to screw that up, if I haven't already. Added 9/14/2009: If you're reading this topic from the beginning, keep this thought in mind as you read. There are ways to make any AR-15 twist rate very target capable. You may see some comments about the 1:7" (In Particular) but possibly the 1:9", or even 1:12" twist rate barrels lacking accuracy potential. After initial baseline evaluation were done and with the help and suggestions of others here at ARFCOM, I started testing the various twist rate barrels with ammunition more suited to each. Don't be disheartened by initial evaluations or comments. As you read through the posts you'll find that even the 1:7" is capable of 5/8", 5 shot groups @ 25 yards using the right ammo. With the right combination of optics, ammunition and accessories, it only gets better. Spec Original Post: As some of you may know, I've been shooting standard 22 Conversions nearly every week for the past several years. I've mainly done JAC Units because I have so many. I have been happy with the Accuracy and Reliability in everything except 1 in 7" Twist Barrels. Best I've done is 4" with Federal Bulk. Better suited ammo means much better groups with these as you will see later in these posts. With no AR Barrels or .223 Bolt Assemblies Available, I decided to do a dedicated 22. I'm getting DT's having nothing to build. I ordered a Spikes Green Mountain Dedicated 16". M4 Barrel and Spike's Dedicated Bolt yesterday. I was just notified by UPS that it will be delivered today. Unfrigging Believable. When it gets here I plan to put it together with a Flat Top Receiver and Fabricate whatever else I don't have to get an Upper together. It'll require a Barrel Nut, Delta Pack, Handguard, Handguard Cap and something to replicate a gas Block to hold all that on. I've got most of that on hand. I've done 150 shot groups with a 1 in 12" and a 1 in 9" Rifle the past couple weeks that can be used for comparison when I get that far. Maybe in the coming weeks/months I can help answer some of the Accuracy Questions by comparing a dedicated 1 in 16" Twist with the standard .223 Conversion. I have no reliability issues with standard conversions using Federal Bulk. I do consider the Atchison or Atchison Ciener Style Unit to be the most Accurate of the Conversions due to it's 2 rail design. Several manufacturer's are making this style conversion at the present time. This basic design is what Spikes uses with some Mods to the Chamber Adapter, Plating, O-Rings on the chamber adapter and possibly other parts too. Customer Service with Spikes has always been 1st Class and the people are Great. Over the Years I've done a lot of .223's with various parts from them and been very happy with the outcome. SO-13 |
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What kind of accuracy are you getting out of your conversions, that you would want to switch to a dedicated upper?
ETA: Comparing conversions to dedicated is something I have been curious about. |
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"I'm a lead farmer Mother F'ers"
Lifesaver, heartbreaker Semper Paratus |
The Accuracy I have gotten from Standard Conversions has varied widely. From 1 1/2" to ???? 8" at 25 Yards, with the same Federal Ammo. The 1 1/2" group was fired at a slower rate of fire under near perfect conditions, indoors. This has been with 20 or so rifles and a dozen or so various conversion types. Most say that the conversion has no function as far as accuracy but, I beg to differ. The Barrel, Conversion Fit, Conversion Type, Differences between Same Type Conversion Units, Lower Parts Kit, Stock Set, Scope/Sights and a lot more come into play. Example: 1 rifle, 1 in 9" twist 16" lightweight, 3 different conversions. First conversion, 8" group, second conversion, 6" group, Ciener conversion, 2" group. same day, same ammo, stable conditions for comparison and a clean rifle in between.
The absolute best 150 round 25 yard group I have fired with a conversion was 1 1/2" at 25 yards ( Not in a Rest, but rested on a bench, slow fire). The ones I'm using for comparison are slightly larger groups, but not drastically. The main reason for the increased group size is the rate of fire I'll be using for these tests. I'll do the same rate of fire and conditions for the dedicated rifle just to see how it can compare. Recover and fire over and over, with just enough time to re-acquire the target before pulling the trigger. The groups won't be as small as they could be but the comparison should be equil in this way. Seems we all have that question except for those who have both standard and dedicated rifles. The real reason I am building a Dedicated rifle is that I have .223 / 7.62 Barrels and Bolt Assemblies on Back Order that may never come in. I have Surgery on my foot that will keep me down for over a month when it happens, and I need something to do to keep my mind off the upcoming Surgery. That and I have all the respect in the world for Spikes and Everyone there, as a Parts Supplier and Manufacturer. It's time to answer the Conversion / Dedicated question for myself and maybe you. I'd build a BB Gun if it looked like a Real AR-15. That Ammo is still available and Very Cheap....... |
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
I'd build a BB Gun if it looked like a real AR-15. That Ammo is still available and Very Cheap....... Air rifle upper for AR15: Pilk Guns |
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I'll keep an Eye on that Air Rifle Thing. Not the hot ticket right now though. Cost, Appearance and Functionality being considered. Future developement of Full Auto or Burst would be really nice.
UPS just came with my order from Spike's. 28 hours from order to delivery, Un Real. That shows that this time it paid to be only 90 miles away. I'll shoot some pictures and post em when I remember how. Thanx to everyone at Spike's who had a part in getting this out to me............ My DT's are subsiding. I even have another Black Dog Machine Mag to add to the pile (Now 51) for future use. I have a DPMS Flat Top Receiver that I'm gonna use. Initial Inspection of Packing / Protection and Part Quality Fit and Finish is First Rate. Some Suppliers just throw things in the box and things tend to get dinged up. I haven't ordered anything to be Shipped from Spike's before, I've always picked up what I needed at the Shows here in Florida.. |
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I just ordered a barrel and bolt too. It got shipped today I hoping to get it by the end of the week.
I was shooting aquila sss out of my 14.5" 1/7 and that actually made it tolerable for accuracy. Before that it was a challenge to hit a clay at 50 yards. it flug the rounds everywhere. My 1/12 is decent enough with the ciener. But I wanted to have a dedicated rig. I didn't like how dirty the kit made my 604. I find it hard to judge the groups accurately without shooting with a good scope from the bench and keeping everything the same across the different rifles. With irons or dots on most of my guns it is hard to really shoot for absolute scientific accuracy. But I can say my 1/7 not good. 1/12 good enough. Dedicated we will see. I am hoping to be surprised. |
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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Tag for Accuracy report and pics.
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tagged as well. SO13 does good work. Sorry bout the foot
Quick hijack: Spikes, you guys still got complete dedicated .22 uppers with the front site assemblys in stock? If this review goes as well as I'm hoping, You could be seeing an order from Texas shortly ETA: Also, can I buy some freekin federal bulk off you guys with the upper? Name your price. It is no where to be found in Texas. |
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I did some of the build last night. Finished it today.
I doubt Spike's will share the Federal Bulk, Would be Nice. Wonder if ar15.com could arrange a mass buy direct from Federal???????? It would be the 525 Packs but Still. I'll run out of my supply in a couple years at the rate I'm using the Wal-Mart Stuff. SO-13 Spikes Parts I Ordered: Most of the Parts I used. Minus the Gas Tube, Charging Handle, Comp. and Front Sight Assy: This is the Compensator I decided on, Added: this one worked well... The Upper Assembled. I wanted to use up some of the parts that have been setting around taking up space so I didn't buy anything additional. Had to Polish and Re-Blue an Old Handguard Cap, Used a Take Off Front Sight Assembly. Rifle together. Nothing special in the Lower. DPMS Parts. The Hand Grip is Cool and has a built in Winter Trigger Guard. It makes the Rifle fit my hand, aligns the trigger to my finger and it's Comfortable, But Wait! It holds Batteries,too........ Stark Equipment SE-1. Link to a Little Write Up on the Grip if you're interested http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2009/03/28/stark-equipment-se-1-grip-for-the-ar-15/ I talked with Stark at Shot Show. The Scopes just sitting there, Haven't decided on "What" Yet So much for having something to do. Lousy pictures, but the Suns Down and I wanted Someting here. Not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot it. I've had Dr. Appointments Everyday. Within the next week For Sure.... Maybe My Doctors can Buy some Parts from Spike's now. |
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long haired tatoo'd hippy freak..that hates taurus
OK, USA
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tag for accuracy report
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I only use my guns when kindness fails
SWT I hope the zombies carry taurus i never used the cocaine to get high i just liked the way it smelled My life is a drunken poets dream |
Great job, the difference between the 1/9 and dedicated is obvious. I am a little surprised how well the 1/12 compared though, I'll bet we would see a bigger difference between groupings at 50 yards. I assume you were using the same optic on all of your uppers?
ETA: re-read your post.... sowwie |
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Thank you, that is great.
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"I'm a lead farmer Mother F'ers"
Lifesaver, heartbreaker Semper Paratus |
what about 1 in 7?
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My 14.5 pinned 1/7 shot ok groups at 25 with aquila sss. With the lighter rounds forgetaboutit
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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I didn't mention the 1 in 7" Twist much. I tried a couple Colts with Conversions and Federal 36gr Bulk. I was getting 4" to 7" Groups at 25 Yards. They need a Heavier Bullet. I'm only testing with Federal Bulk so the comparisons are equil. End of Story for right now. Maybe down the road....
I was thinking about the Lower I was using for the Dedicated Upper. The trigger's horrible, One of the worst I've put together(Spare Parts) and being too anxious to shoot. Before I go again, I'll either have to smooth it out or I'll swap lowers to one I've tuned. I believe the group size can be reduced a little further just by doing that. Since I've a Baseline Comparison now, I can tweek things and see how much better the group can get. I don't want to use a Vice or Stand because that's not "Real World". I may Slow the fire rate from my Norm though. Couldn't Hurt. But to maintain standards for these tests it'd be cheating... BTW: I ordered another Ciener for the spare parts, from Midway. They were in stock earlier today. Not that they break. It was Cheap.......................... SO-13 in Florida |
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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long haired tatoo'd hippy freak..that hates taurus
OK, USA
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Just wanted to say thanks for doing this
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I only use my guns when kindness fails
SWT I hope the zombies carry taurus i never used the cocaine to get high i just liked the way it smelled My life is a drunken poets dream |
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Just wanted to say thanks for doing this +1 Thanks again. Good luck on the operation, at least now you'll get handicap parking at the range! |
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
Couldn't stand it. I went to the range mid day today. It's hot enough here in Florida, but you have to understand, this is an Old In Door Range. No AC, It just blows Hot Air, especially during the daytime. I normally wait till it cools off a little before I go. <snip> Shooting Sports in Tampa? |
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Obama is like a Trojan horse for retards. - stealbear
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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Why don't you bring that thing out to Titusville and shoot with some other .22 AR's and M16's? Great range, not a chicken coup!
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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BS: I had my foot operated on Monday, all went well. They gave me the Broken Stainless Steel Screws as Momentos. Titanium Screws and Plate went back in. Hurts pretty much when on the Ground right now.
Back to the Subject: I picked up an FN Chrome Lined, 1 in 12" Twist, 20" Barrel tonight. A friend needed to make one of our trades even out so he gave it to me for $40.00. I have a DPMS High Ride Receiver and all the parts needed to put it together. Got to thinking, we need someone who has a 1 in 12" Twist and Spike's Standard Conversion to do some accuracy testing and post the results here. Basically I used a Cheap 4x Scope, rested the rifle on top of a bench and fired 150 rounds at various rates at 25 yards to come up with a 2" hole using the 1 in 12" with a Ciener and the conditions and rate of fire for these tests. Maybe the Spikes Conversion can improve on that. Hey, I'm down for 6 weeks. Help me out here. I need Input (More to Read). Thanx, SO-13 |
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So what were your overall thoughts?
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My overall thoughts are: It's going to be very difficult to beat a Spike's Dedicated Upper or an upper built with a Spikes Barrel and Dedicated Conversion as I did. It already matches the accuracy of both of the 10/22's that I own. It is 25% more accurate than the best I have been able to do with a Standard Non Spike's Conversion Unit in a 1 in 12" Twist .223 Barrel. It Performs Flawlessly with Spike's Dedicated Conversion Unit and Good Federal Bulk Ammo. There isn't much more that I can say, Everything is Positive, even great experience with Spike's People at the Shows, on the phone and with internet orders. even dealing with an internet order that didn't work out. One phone call and I was given to a very knowledgable Young Lady who put it on the right track. Seems that the initial person who answers the phone may not have an answer but knows who will.
I'm still Down while my Foot Surgery heals, 3 more weeks. After that I hope to continue my testing. I've installed a 6x Mil Reticle Compact Scope and dumped the Variable Monster that I started with. I was hoping that someone would post results from tests with a Standard AR using the Spike's Plated Conversion. I would like to see if it's more accurate than the "Other Brands". I have 8 Cieners collected over the years and an Oly M261. I just can't justify buying another Standard Conversion Unit. I'm Happy with the results I've obtained but I'll still try to improve upon them. My Old Tired Body is the limiting factor now. SO-13 |
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Spec did you have any problem with the bolt catch and your lopro? Mine is hanging up and keeping the bolt from closing unless I hold the bolt release pressed to the upper. I am going to take a file to the back of the bolt catch a little bit and see if I can get it to clear.
I also realized after I got this lopro that my troy rail won't work with it. So I am going to have to figure out something else for hand guards. I will probably throw a set of carbine hand guards on it for now. ETA: A very little Dremel work to the back of the bolt catch and it seems all is well. |
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
My overall thoughts are: It's going to be very difficult to beat a Spike's Dedicated Upper or an upper built with a Spikes Barrel and Dedicated Conversion as I did. It already matches the accuracy of both of the 10/22's that I own. It is 33% more accurate than the best I have been able to do with a Standard Non Spike's Conversion Unit in a 1 in 12" Twist .223 Barrel. It Performs Flawlessly with Spike's Dedicated Conversion Unit and Good Federal Bulk Ammo. There isn't much more that I can say, Everything is Positive, even great experience with Spike's People at the Shows, on the phone and with internet orders. even dealing with an internet order that didn't work out. One phone call and I was given to a very knowledgable Young Lady who put it on the right track. Seems that the initial person who answers the phone may not have an answer but knows who will. I'm still Down while my Foot Surgery heals, 3 more weeks. After that I hope to continue my testing. I've installed a 6x Mil Reticle Compact Scope and dumped the Variable Monster that I started with. I was hoping that someone would post results from tests with a Standard AR using the Spike's Plated Conversion. I would like to see if it's more accurate than the "Other Brands". I have 8 Cieners collected over the years and an Oly M261. I just can't justify buying another Standard Conversion Unit. I'm Happy with the results I've obtained but I'll still try to improve upon them. My Old Tired Body is the limiting factor now. SO-13 Thats Awesome to hear man! I would like to donate a 223 chamber adapter for you to do testing with. You can use your dedicated bolt and just swap adapters over. That way you can test and see if the o-rings are effective for accuracy. Just IM me your address and Ill send it out on monday. -Tom |
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theskuh,
I didn't have any trouble with anything, Happy to hear that you found a cure so fast. I realize this may not be an option you'd consider but, UTG has a 2 piece Quad Rail that's very inexpensive, a little heavy but rock solid. Good Shooting, SO-13 |
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Do you need to limit rapid fire or allow for cooling periods or anything with that o-ring adapter deal? What are the o-rings made of? It looks neat.
I'm considering some .22 goodness myself. This looks interesting. |
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Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Do you need to limit rapid fire or allow for cooling periods or anything with that o-ring adapter deal? What are the o-rings made of? It looks neat. I'm considering some .22 goodness myself. This looks interesting. Not at all. The o-rings are Viton, same material used on the Mil-Spec Crane extractor o-rings. |
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Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
So the Chamber Adapter that Tom sent from Spike's added to their Plated Bolt is as accurate as the best Ciener Conversion I have. So there is no noticeable difference in accuracy that the o-ringed chamber adapter makes, right? eta: I'm waiting for a couple more days to test contribute to this thread - I will be testing my self-built M1S .22 dedicated upper against my 1/9 twist DPMS and 1/12 twist retro AR. I will have one dedicated .22lr conversion kit that will have the dedicated .22lr collar, and another kit w/ the chamber adapter. Keeping my fingers crossed that things fall into place (or more like nothing more gets added or comes up) so I can finally go test this trio out. |
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MrMONEYman:
"So there is no noticeable difference in accuracy that the o-ringed chamber adapter makes, right?" That's somewhat true. Here is what I found. Their Plated Bolt is as accurate as the Best Ciener Conversion I have being fired at a slower rate than for these tests. I have 8 Cieners that were compared prior to my testing. It will be very interesting to have your results added using M1S Parts. I'm doing my shooting by resting myself on the bench for some added stability. i load the mags to 25 and fire at a moderately fast rate to come up with an average accuracy. Same recover and shoot as I mentioned before. Not rapid fire and not slow fire. My own human error has something to do with that. I'm not as steady as I was 30 years ago, My eye sight isn't 20/15 now either. We'll be able to relate your results better if you fire each time under similar conditions with each setup. Especially the rate of fire. You don't have to shoot exactly the same way or number of rounds as I do, just shoot the way you do each time. We can compare the 3 different rifles and get a pretty good idea of how well you'd be shooting mine and visa-versa. This will be a great way for us to compare the accuracy of Dedicated Spike's vs Dedicated M1S and the 1 in 9" and 1 in 12" . Very Cool. The reason I shoot so many rounds for grouping is to get an average of My Ability, the Conversion/Rifle Capability and the Ammo's Consistancy. I'm using all Wal-Mart Federal Bulk for all the tests, but it'll be fine if you use something different. Doing all of this we should be able level your ability vs mine and get a good comparison of the Rifles and Conversions and the Dedicated Uppers. Way Cool.................. SpecOps-13 |
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Now we need some Lothar Walther ST-22 testing.
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Originally Posted By badazzar15:
Now we need some Lothar Walther ST-22 testing. I'm interested in seeing the results for this one. |
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SO13
I plan on strictly using the WallyWorld 550 Fed Value packs to do my shooting anyways - as i've been able to stash a couple of boxes away before the panic buying. I will try to replicate your method as best as I can and post results. Like I said, I will be keeping my fingers crossed that I can go out on Thursday to do some shooting. |
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Originally Posted By MrMONEYman:
eta: I'm waiting for a couple more days to test contribute to this thread - I will be testing my self-built M1S .22 dedicated upper against my 1/9 twist DPMS and 1/12 twist retro AR. I will have one dedicated .22lr conversion kit that will have the dedicated .22lr collar, and another kit w/ the chamber adapter. Keeping my fingers crossed that things fall into place (or more like nothing more gets added or comes up) so I can finally go test this trio out. I tried this with my MGI upper. I shot a M1S 1/9" barrel with conversion kit, then replaced the barrel with a dedicated setup. This kept the trigger and optics the same. The result: The conversion kit and barrel shot 3/4" at 25yards, while the dedicated setup shot 1" groups. This was pretty consistent with several brands of ammo. I need to repeat the tests at 50 yards to see if the different twist rate will have more impact at longer ranges. |
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Do not go gentle into that good night, go cocked and locked.
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Thats damn good shootin! You ready for that Lothar Walther barrel?
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I got my Spike's upper last July after i transferred to Japan. Got to shoot it in May. 200-300 rounds though it. great little shooter. i am by no means a great shot but i was hitting quarter size sticker targets at 25 yards with iron sights. tried the crap remington ammo, every round would not chamber unless i pushed the bolt closed. wally world did not have the federal packs so i got a couple american eagle packs. the american eagle fed as good as the federals i was able to get a week later. i have no pics. the rifle is locked in my safe in ny and im in Yokohama Japan right now.
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Wow that is slick!!
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"They appeared to be well-trained terrorists. They came on rickshaws." Habib-ur Rehman, Lahore's Chief of Police chief told reporters.
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Ok, Seriously, That's a Really Really Really Cool Rifle... Thanx for posting pictures of it and the Fantastic Group. It's the future to keep this Post going.
Now For a Little Humor. I don't mean anything by it: That's not Fair though, I have to travel 60 miles to get a decent range that has over 25 yards. Serious Again, I see a Lothar Walther Barrel in my future. I still have to complete the 5 Shot Groups with Spike's Standard Green Mountain Barrel. I expect that to go very well. But I guess I'll be traveling sometime in the Future for 50 yards. I Love It. SO-13 |
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I cant help but believe that a dedicated barrel will make more of a difference in accuracy then the bolt itself. A 1/16 twist dedicated barrel just has to be better then a 1/9 or even 1/12 punched for 5.56. Now how much difference with the Walther barrel make over the standard...will be interesting to see. What I really want to see is the Walther vs the Anshultz! Those will have to be the top two Kings in the game.
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When it comes to rimfiles, the most important things are the chamber, bore, crown, ammo, then bolt. The bolt deals with headspacing, firing pin location and resistance to recoil until the bullet has left the barrel. The way the chamber is cut and the overall quality of the rifling and bore diameter is way more important than the bolt itself. If it was not an issue, the Walther barrel would be considered the standard and not the premium option.
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The barrel and ammo is the most important part. The rest means nothing.
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