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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:25:26 PM EDT
By now, I would assume that many are familiar with the PWS Piston System.
Typically we would not change the original pictures, but the final latch version vs. the old pictures was causing some confusion - so I've replaced the pictures. The gas block is now a set screw mount instead of a taper pin. (While many may feel that this will not hold, we can assure that that the 1/4” set screws we are using that sink in as deep as taper pins (approx. 100 thousandths of an inch) hold the gas block on just as well and actually create a tighter seal resulting in better overall function.)  The gas piston tube is one piece and is removable for easier cleaning of the system. The tube also has a step down right behind the gas port so that there is less "sticking" surface, making it much easier to remove when dirty.  The gas adjustment knob has a knob that pushes in and forward to allow for removal. The interior of the tube has been chrome lined.  Here is the system shown in relation to a mid length gas system on a 16" barrel.  The gas adjustment knob has two positions - one (O) is for normal operating mode. The other (-) restricts the amount of gas moving into the gas block and also does not vent any gas out - but rather expels the gas back through the barrel when the system returns to battery. When using a suppressor, either mode can be used, but typically the (-) setting yields a more pleasant recoil impulse.  The system and as block was designed around quality rails such as Daniel Defense, LaRue Tactical and VLTOR. It also works with Troy Industries rails, ARMS, the Predator Rail as well as the standard M4 Profile handguards. Please let me know if you have any questions. ETA: - the link.  Todd |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:32:02 PM EDT
[#1]
looking good...can we install it ourselves now ? or do we still have to send it to you.
thanks |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:38:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Pistol length?
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:38:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Good question and sorry I didn't reference that earlier.
This is still an in-house retro-fit. We are working on a program right now to setup dealers as "certified installers." That way you can send it to your dealer, or take it to your local dealer if there is one in the area, for the installation and we can concentrate on production. Having it installed by us or a certified installer ensures the system was installed properly and the weapon will function without issue. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:39:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Looks good Todd!
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:41:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Pistol length is running and running hard! That thing is a ball!  I don't have any pictures with the new system on it - but we will certainly have them. In fact, we are working on getting some rails made specifically for the pistol length systems. I'll have more info in about a week. Todd |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:42:30 PM EDT
[#6]
tag
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Posted: 2/9/2008 7:42:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Great, Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 8:16:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Todd,
It would be very useful if you could publish one dimension of system. The gas block is the same height as the receiver, correct? If so, what is the distance from the top of the gas block to the top of the piston tube (at the back of the gas block)? The reason I ask is because that one dimension could give a simple way to determine whether a handguard is a good candidate for your piston system. I was talking with John at Troy on Friday. The distance from the top of the gas block to the top of the piston tube will tell me if the Troy MRF might work. Basically, if the top of their rail is thicker than that dimension, it won't work. If the top of the rail is thinner, than there's a good chance it might. It's not a foolproof method, but it could be a handy yardstick. Please correct me if I'm wrong. By the way, I have my first customer. He just about BEGGED me to be the first guy with a Ko-tonics PWS upper. So I guess I'll have to give you a PO for at least ONE. Now don't you guys throw a celebration party and get drunk or anything, 'cuz you gotta get out in the shop and build me my ONE kit, mmmkay? - Tim p.s. where's mine?  p.p.s. Do you mind if I link your above pics in to a note over on 68forums.com? We have a discussion over there about the particulars of the system and it would help. Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 8:38:31 PM EDT
[#9]
do you think a standard looking a2 front sight style will be something you might offer later,insteed of the flat top gasblock?
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Posted: 2/9/2008 8:45:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Good idea - I'll have to get those dimensions when I'm back in the shop on Monday - but as soon as I have them I'll post them here - or wherever the thread is by then. (oh yes - please feel free to link the pics on the other forum. - I'm sending all my 6.8 traffic to you anyway.)  Todd |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 8:51:59 PM EDT
[#11]
We had decided to just do a flat top vs. a front sight post due to the amount of flip up and fixed front sights available. The additional cost of machining is so close to the cost of a clamp on sight from YHM that it doesn't make any sense to machine one into it. That being said - this goes along the same lines as the bayonet lug version. If someone wants 200+ of them - we can certainly look into it. Todd |
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Posted: 2/9/2008 9:46:34 PM EDT
[#12]
The flat top gas block will give you more options. There are fixed sights that mount on the rail forends, so they will work with that gas block. If it's just a matter of looks, I don't see how their piston could be made to work with anything that looks like their piston tube. I could be wrong, though.
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Posted: 2/9/2008 10:07:53 PM EDT
[#13]
How about a few pics with the rail off and of the bottom of the block where the sets screws are. Im reading all of this for the first time and the visual aids really help understand how its built. Questions , Does the pin that holds the tube to the knob also act as a locking lug in the gas block ? And what is the affect of converting back to a DI system with the larger gas hole in the barrel ?
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Posted: 2/10/2008 3:25:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Sorry if I missed it but what is the status/challenges of a 6.8 carbine piston conversion?
Thx, T |
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Posted: 2/10/2008 3:36:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Ive been shopping for a cpl gas piston systems and really dont like seeing small springs very close the chamber and barrel on them so I am very interested in yours.
Like the poster above, I would like some more visuals. I am concerned about the bond between the key and the operating rod and what would result from a failure of that bond with so much of the rod inside an aluminum receiver during the cycle compared to other retrofits , it may be a non issue and visuals may help to see that. Your site says " A fully mothered operating rod to inhibit flexing or bending " Thats probably what I am looking for, Id just like to see it. Very interested in seeing more James |
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Posted: 2/10/2008 5:24:21 PM EDT
[#16]
The 6.8 version has one more round of testing to go - and that will be done by Ko-Tonics.
(as soon as I get his upper put together, that is - so don't start emailing him just yet) I will get some other pictures tomorrow - I have some pictures of the gas block off and will take some more, but all of that stuff is at the shop and I'm not there right now. I'll get some more pictures tomorrow and post them in the afternoon. Todd |
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Posted: 2/10/2008 6:11:32 PM EDT
[#17]
How about some .308 love for us AR10ers? Thanks, Wes
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Posted: 2/10/2008 7:06:41 PM EDT
[#18]
or a 7.62x39 kit since the CProducts is just around the corner from releasing a reliable mag for the round? |
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Posted: 2/10/2008 7:33:06 PM EDT
[#19]
We don't have any plans in the foreseeable future for the .308 - but we certainly are going to do the 7.62x39. In fact, a hand full of those mags are supposed to be on there way to me right now - so this will definitely be a sooner than later project.
Todd |
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Posted: 2/10/2008 9:33:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Look great Todd. Looking forward to handling one of these at Rainier Arms.
I spy a new FSC. Is that one Halo and G5 compatible?? |
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Posted: 2/11/2008 9:11:52 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 2/11/2008 10:14:14 AM EDT
[#22]
How about a DD rail as pictured above but the rail ends where your gas block rail ends ? , for a nice flush look .
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Posted: 2/11/2008 11:42:30 AM EDT
[#23]
here's one with the first generation PWS piston, with a DD lite 9.0. 
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Posted: 2/11/2008 3:13:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Please keep the rifle legth system available, and also please reconsider a 308 system.
 I have a Kotonics 6.8 rifle length system eagerly awaiting a retrofit as well as a few 308s that would be potential candidates.
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Posted: 2/11/2008 4:05:21 PM EDT
[#25]
I would also agree with the rifle length. I am going to get one to put on my rifle length system.
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Posted: 2/11/2008 5:06:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Todd -
There are some pistol calibers here DYING to be tested ... as soon as you can share one of the shorties, please drop me a line! |
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Posted: 2/11/2008 5:55:04 PM EDT
[#27]
OK - as promised - new pictures.
First - the piston system parts - apart...  and then together.  The system with a LaRue Rail (this lets you see the bottom of the gas block)   and finally with the VIS.    As you can see with any standard height (receiver height) rails, the gas block rails is flush in line with those rails giving you a continuous rail for co-witnessing optics, etc. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/11/2008 8:18:59 PM EDT
[#28]
I havnt been able to make up my mind on what i want to use the kit for. but i think i decided im going to use the piston conversion on a 7.62x39 upper. but we need CL barrels! and the Cproducts mags Have to be reliable!! to be 100% sold on it. ETA a few questions: i think the changes you made to the system were for the better! the system really looks great. whats going to be different with the conversion in calibers other than 5.56? beefier parts? is there a reason why the OP rod has the be connected to the carrier key? I dont really like that! is there a way around it? that VIS looks great. how much modification did it take? what rail are you going with on the pistol length setup? thanks for your time. tom |
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Posted: 2/11/2008 9:26:46 PM EDT
[#29]
We are working on barrels right now - as well as waiting for the C-Products mags. From the third party tests I've heard about, they are more reliable than any AR mag that I currently own - so things are looking good on that front.
The 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62x39 all use the same kit. The op rod attaching to the carrier and being mothered inside of the tube is they key to the system. It gives a very smooth recoil impulse much closer to a DI gun and not as harsh as many of the other piston systems out there. No rail that we say "fits" our system will require any modification. The new Troy rail will fit - the old version I'm not sure about. I'm waiting to get one in hand to find out for sure. Don't know just yet about the pistol rail - I'm still looking into that. Todd |
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Posted: 2/11/2008 9:29:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Yes - that is the Quickcomp FSC556. It is a quick mount for the Gemtech G5 as well as the older M496-D. Contrary to what some supposed 3rd parties might say, the G5 is an awesome can and I have been wanting to make a mount for it for quite a while. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 5:01:17 AM EDT
[#31]
You are working on Chrome Lined 7.62x39 barrels? |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 6:13:29 AM EDT
[#33]
Will this system work with either the Troy or Samson Rail systems? I have two Samson Carbine rails and one Troy Rifle length rails.....They look like intially they will work just from eyeballing the pictures?
I would also like to know if this is a system that can be installed by the user or does it require a gunsmith and/or sending in the upper assembly? |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:32:19 AM EDT
[#34]
How much weight is added to a carbine setup (with a standard FSB) by using your gas piston system?
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:33:41 AM EDT
[#35]
We are looking at barrels - they will either be Chrome Lined or Stainless Steel - but we're leaning toward chrome. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:41:22 AM EDT
[#36]
The system will currently work with - Daniel Defense Lite Rail Daniel Defense Omega Rail VLTOR VIS LaRue Tactical Rail Modified M4 handguards (and possibly the C6 handguard from Cav Arms for the mid length setups.) ARMS SIR system Predator rail (made by POF, sold by Bushmaster) The “new” Troy Rails (and I’m waiting on someone to send me an “old” Troy rail to see if it fits under there.) The system is an installed item - by either us or one of our certified installers. We are working on setting up a network of dealers/installers that can install them while we concentrate on production. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:01:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Thanks for the pic , what i meant by flush was the rail ended at the front of the gas block not the rear. |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:08:40 AM EDT
[#38]
The picture of the system apart shows how everything is laid out within the tube and gas block. I have a cutaway that if forgot to take pictures of yesterday - I'll try and get them today or tomorrow. by "mothered op rod" we mean that the operating rod is not simply free floating. When the piston enacts pressure on the rod, it is mothered inside of the tube to help the entire system remain concentric thus reducing energy loss. This allows us to maintain a smoother recoil impulse as well as minimize carrier tilt. The op rod is pressure fit into the carrier key. The carrier key and anti-shear pin are hardened tool steel and the op rod itself is a mold ejector pin. It is a through hardened pin with a hardness that would be difficult to replicate without great cost. We saw no reason to reinvent that wheel. The 399 includes the installation and return shipping to the customer. We do not cover shipping to get the upper to us. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:10:41 AM EDT
[#39]
The system adds approx. 5 ounces of weight to a system. It obviously weighs more than that, but removing existing gas blocks, tubes and keys subtract from some of the overall weight. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:14:13 AM EDT
[#40]
The rail pictured has not been modified - that is the DD 12.0FSPM - which is the mid length rail extended around the gas block to protect it. I suppose if you wanted you could trim it down, but it is not something we offer or condone. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:19:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Todd, thanks for the extra pics of the gas block and parts, now seeing the gas block alone you can see the quality machinging and contours, Like you said those screws look nice and beefy.
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Posted: 2/12/2008 9:07:46 AM EDT
[#42]
If my opinion means anything, I would prefer CL since CL holds up better to full auto fun. |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 11:04:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Typically, I would agree - and perhaps it is because I have been using a really nice SS barrel and an "OK" chrome lined barrel - but I've had less issues with my SS barrel than with my CL barrel. I keep sticking casings in my CL barrel/chamber after about 12 to 14 mag dumps - and I'm not having that issue with my SS barrel.
We'll do some more testing and see - those are just my random thoughts. Todd (don't ask who makes the barrels - as I do not want to turn this into a barrel debate - I'm just saying that SS CAN be good.)
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Posted: 2/12/2008 12:40:08 PM EDT
[#44]
System looks great!
Are you currently installing this new version, and what would the wait time be? Thanks! |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 1:03:26 PM EDT
[#45]
OK - the clearance needed for our system to fit under a particular rail is .270" from top of the barrel to the bottom of the interior opening. (the inside of the rail). The opening must also be .375" diameter in width. These are minimums and anything else will require rail modification. We will not be offering any rail modification in our shop due to perceived warranty issues with other manufacturer's rails. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 1:06:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Yes - we are doing the new version unless someone specifically requests the "old" version. As soon as the tubes come back from chroming, we will continue the installation process. This should still keep us within the 3-week expected turn around time which starts from the day the upper arrives at our shop. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 5:07:39 PM EDT
[#47]
So are you waiting on some in particular to send you the rail or are you asking for someone that currently has an older version of the Troy? By older version, how old? Mine are approx. a year for the rifle version and carbine version and the Samson's are about 2 years old. |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 6:20:14 PM EDT
[#48]
i honestly didnt think there was a difference from old to new. |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 6:34:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Nor did I....
What would be helpful is knowing regardless though, because I would hate to send it in and then it not work... |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 6:40:32 PM EDT
[#50]
how many rounds can be fired before you have to clean?
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