EDIT - 7/31/06
The following is a Repost of my material from the original topic.

It will remain for a period of approx 30 days at which time the photos will be lost because I will not continue my payments to maintain the photoserver access.

This is being done out of respect to those who worked with me and supported me. I ask in return that this material:
1. not be copied and reposted under a new topic

Basically this is here to be copied and saved for personal use by the "Serious Hard Core Retro Members" of this forum.

So best of luck and get busy with the "Copy and Paste" and "Right Click Save"!

I will not be responding to any questions posted in this topic.

Sorry and Thanks,
"Capt Richardson"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


EDIT - 7/28/06

QUOTE:
"There are so many tacked threads here, and I'm always being asked to tack more, that I'm sure this stuff just becomes invisible after a while."

"New users don't read tacked threads."

"As you have most likely noticed there is a self appointed King of the forum running loose in here."

"Chill out captin. I've read all the tacked posts more then once. I found it to not be the best writen"

Per the above comments made by various members, I will no longer be supporting the Retro Forum.

For the time being this topic will remain out of respect to the other AR15.com members who assisted me with the creation of the topic. However I will not continue to pay for my photoserver account which supports this topic so at some point the photos links will cease to be operational and the pictures will be lost.

I apologize to the other members of this Forum, but this is not the type of Forum that I signed on for.
"Capt Richardson"




Hopefully the following information on the “Colt Military Carbines” which were around prior to the “M4 Carbines” will be of use to some of the members here.

This post came about as the result of previous discussion on the “Colt Military Carbines”, which made me realize that while I had used a number of these of Carbines during my Military Service that I actually knew very little about them. Hopefully this post and the following discussion will eventually turn into a “Technical and Historical Reference Source” for the “Colt Military Carbines”.

For that to happen, I am going to need all of the help that I can get from the members here who read this. I have done the best that I could to get this started, but I am sure that there are some “Technical” and “Historical” inaccuracies and shortcomings. That being the case, please feel free to identify any inaccuracies that you note, and please contribute any additional information that you may have which is not already included. Please feel free to include your input as a post here, or feel free to email me with any additional comments or photos so that I can include them.

Hopefully if we all work together this “Technical and Historical Guide” will eventually surpass anything that is currently out there.

I have collected the information below from a number of resources to include:

BOOKS
If still in print I have listed the Publishers/Retailers Website. If out of print I have referenced Amazon.com, which I have used to get many of these books, but I am not trying to promote.

Black Rifle, Books I & II
(Special Thanks! to Chris Bartocci, Autor of Black Rifle II for his help with this project.)

Complete AR15/M16 Sourcebook

Jane's Infantry Weapons
This is an "Annual Yearbook" series, I believe that started in 1975, and is still running. I have reviewed various copies from the 70's to the 90's.

Machine Gun Dealers Bible, 4th Edition
(Special Thanks! to Dan Shea, Autor, for his review of this project.)

Small Arms of the World
I have reviewed the 8th through the 12th Editions. 8th Ed = 1966, 9th Ed = 1969, 10th Ed = 1973, 11th Ed = 1977, 12th Ed = 1983.
The series was originally written by W. H. B. Smith, and then continued by E. C. Ezell starting with the 11th Ed.

Small Arms Today, 2nd Edition

Standard Catalog of Military Firearms, 3rd Edition

Weapons of the Navy Seals

There is also an older/original version of this book called Special Warfare / Special Weapons that is out of print.
Special Warfare Special Weapons


WEBSITES
BiggerHammer AR Guide

The Gun Zone 5.56 Rifle Timeline

Military Photos - The M16 Issue
(Special Thanks! to Joe Trevithick for sharing his work, and his input.)

Wikipedia, History of the Colt Commando


Various AR-15 Topics and Discussions
COLT'S USGI M16 SERIES VARIATION GUIDE EDITION III

COLT SMG, COMMANDO, AND CARBINE VARIATIONS GUIDE

LOWER RECEIVER & MAG FLOORPLATE ROLLMARKS, LOGOS AND MARKINGS

USAF GUU 5/P, need more info

WHO MAKES THE MOST AUTHENTIC XM-177E2 REPLICA PARTS ?

WHO ALL IS ACTIVELY BUILDING AN XM177 CLONE?

XM177E2 (?) IMAGE FROM SON TAY RAID FOR THE RETRO INTERESTED

So..you are thinking of a retro build...PICS and information


Also other numerous Books, Magazines Articles, Websites, Emails, and Phone Calls.

If any of your work, comments, and photos are included and you would like them removed, or would like to have your work noted please email me. I will also attempt to identify the original resources where any of the work has come.

I will keep this topic as up to date as my life will allow me. I will do my best to identify in the post when new information has been added or old information has been corrected or updated.

Finally, in doing my research I have discovered that there is a lot of conflicting information out there in the sources that I reviewed. I have also discovered that due to things such as “field modifications” that not every “M16 Carbine” which was in service would necessarily meet the original Colt Factory Specifications. That being the case, please keep in mind that there may be some “exception to the rules” posted here.

This "Technical & Historical Guide" will be divided into two sections:
Section #1 - Technical Guide
Section #2 - Historical Guide

Continued with next post

SECTION #1 - Colt Military Carbines "Technical Guide"

This section will document the "Technical Asspects" of the Colt Military Carbines. Every effort will be made in this section to describe and illustrate the Models as they would have been produced and delivered from the factory.

PLEASE NOTE:
The "Data Charts" below were compiled from a number of sources and every effort has been made to assure their accuracy. That being said I have uncovered conflicting information in my research, so when in doubt:
1. I have posted the information that was in Black Rifle II, because I have found it to be the most accurate.
and/or
2. I have posted the conflicting information and provided the best explanation that I can find for it.
If you believe any of the information is incorrect please contact me by email or by posting here.


COLT MILITARY CARBINES

*NOTE: some of the USAF Carbine info is disputed or not 100% confirmed, please see the USAF Carbines at the end of the Technical Section for more details*


DATA NOTES:
Barrel Data - Listed as FSB Dimension, Barrel Length, and Twist Rate

Series = Single Model Number with additional variations/designations, typically A and B designations are used.
Model = Single Model Number with no addiational designations.

M16 Carbines – The Early A1 Years (1966 to 1982)


605 Series

605 Listed as “M16A1 Carbine”
605A – 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
605B – 4 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto, Burst


Photo Credit: Pattern Room Collection


Photo Credit: Internet Sites, Possible Black Rifle I Photo
__________________________________________

607 Series

607 Listed as “SMG Tanker Model” and XM16E1
607A – 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
607B – 4 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto, Burst


Photo Credit: Internet Sites


Photo Credit: Internet Sites


Photo Credit: Tokoi


Photo Credit: ARFCOM Member SMGLee, Reed Knight Collection
__________________________________________


Model 608

Listed as USAF Survival Rifle


Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member T-Money


Photo Credit: ARFCOM Member SMGLee, Reed Knight Collection
__________________________________________


Model 609

609 Listed as “XM1777E1 Commando – US Army”
3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto




Photo Credit: Internet Sites

__________________________________________


610 Series

610 Listed as “GAU-5/A – USAF”
610 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
610B - 4 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto, Burst


Photo Credit: Internet Sites
__________________________________________


Model 619 & 620

619 Listed as “XM177E1 – Export Carbine”
619 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto





620 Listed as “XM177 – Export Carbine”
620 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto


__________________________________________


Model 629 & 630

629 Listed as “XM177E2”
629 & 630 For possible USAF Designations see USAF Carbines at end of the "Technical Guide" guide for more details





Photo Credit: ARFCOM Member SMGLee, Reed Knight Collection
__________________________________________


Model 639

639 Listed as “Export Version of the Model 629 - XM177E2”
3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto




Photo Credit: Small Arms Review - Dan Shea
__________________________________________


Model 649

649 Listed as “GAU-5A/A – USAF”, see USAF Carbines at end of guide for more details*
3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto

Please note that some references list the 649 with a 10" Barrel, and other references list it with a 11.5" Barrel. Consensus is the 11.5" length is correct.


__________________________________________


Model 651 & 652

3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto



__________________________________________


Model 653 & 654

3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto



Photo Credit: ARFCOM Member SMGLee, Reed Knight Collection



Continued with next post

.

SECTION #1 (continued) - Colt Military Carbines "Technical Guide"


M16 Carbines – The Transitional A1 – A2 Years (1982 to 1993)

Please Note: The "700 Series" of Models were being produced as the transition was being made from the "A1" to the "A2" components. I believe based on, possible changes in production runs, and field modifications / upgrades, that it is possible to find variations within the components of a given model. For example, the 723 Model was originally built with an "A1 Upper", but a number of examples can be found with an "A2 Upper".  As such I am still doing research to try and confirm what the “Original Specifications” were, and what possible “Variations” may have been most commonly found.

720 & 721 Series



__________________________________________


723 Series

Listed M16A2 Carbine
723 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
723S - 2 Position Selector: Safe, Semi
723X - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto




__________________________________________


725 Series

Listed as M16A2 Carbine - UAE
3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Burst


__________________________________________


727, 728, 729 Series

Listed as “M16A2 Carbine”
727 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
728 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
729 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Burst

Barrel Data - Possible that both "Standard A2 Profile" and "M4 Profile" (with the M203 Step Cut) Barrels could be found on the models.




__________________________________________


733, 734, 735 Series

Listed as “M16A2 Commando”
733 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
734 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Auto
734A - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Burst
735 - 3 Position Selector: Safe, Semi, Burst


Barrel Data - Possible that both "A1" (.625 FSB) and "A2" (.750 FSB) Profile Barrels could have been found on the models. All Barrels were 11.5" in length, and would have had a 1/7 twist rate.


__________________________________________



NOTE: Guide will stop with the 735 Series for now


Continued with next post

SECTION #1 (continued) - Colt Military Carbines "Technical Guide"


Colt Military Carbines – The Components










_________________________________________


Colt Military Carbines – The 40MM Grenade Launchers

There were 2 Single Shot, Breech Loading, 40MM Grenade Launchers that could have been found on a Colt Military Carbine.

The XM148 was the first Grenade Launcher introduced and used in the Mid to Late 1960's during Vietnam. This Launcher experienced numerous problems and saw very limited use in the field. While the primary application for the XM148 was on a M16 Rifle, they could be found in very limited numbers in use on  the XM177E2 (Colt Model 629)





Photo Credit: Kevin Dockery




The M203 was the next Grenade Launcher introduced in the late 1960's to early 1970's. This Launcher is in use in significant numbers in the field, and can be found on numerous Colt Models to include the 629, 653, and 727.











In addition to the standard M203 with the 12" Barrel, the M203A1 is available with a 9" Barrel







_________________________________________


USAF Carbines – Not So Easy To Figure Out!

This section will attempt to address the US Air Force Carbines.

In my research I have uncovered some controversy on exactly which models are which, and the USAF had a program of "Rebuilding" their carbines so it can be pretty challenging to figure out just exactly what is what. Hopefully with some input from everyone we will be able to finally nail this one down somewhat.



*NOTES*
Colt Model 629's were donated/transferred from US Army inventory to USAF inventory following Vietnam. These Carbines have been identified as being designated either GAU-5A/B or GAU-5/B, however the exact designation is not clear. The majority of references do refer to them as GAU-5A/B.

Both the Colt Model 630 and Model 649 have been reported in various references as being the model that the GAU-5A/A was based on. So far the majority of references do refer to the Colt Model 649 as being the GAU-5A/A. Efforts are still underway to try and determine exactly which model the GAU-5A/A was based on.

GAU-5/P & GUU-5/P - there is controversy over whether the GUA-5/P was actually a USAF designation. It is also not 100% clear what the exact configurations were for either model. The data posted on the chart currently has the most support, but it is not 100% verified or agreed upon by all.


The first USAF Carbine was the GAU-5A which was based on the Colt Model 610.





The next USAF Carbine was the GAU-5A/A which was based on either the Colt Model 630 or 649.



Based on a number of factors (BATF declaring the 4.5” Moderator as a Silencer and the inability to use a Blank Firing Adapter on the 4.5” Moderator) the in the early 1980’s the USAF removed the 4.5” Moderators on the GAU-5A/A’s which were still in service and replaced them with A1 Flash-Hiders.



The next Carbine in the USAF series would have been the GAU-5P. While a number of references identify this USAF designation, they do not clearly identify if it was based on a stock Colt Model, if it was a USAF Rebuild, or if it was possibly both. One explanation would make the GAU-5P a Colt Model 653. Another explanation would make the GAU-5P the first of the USAF Rebuilds which would have replaced the barrels on the GAU-5A and the GAU-5AA with a 14.5" barrel.

Colt Model 653's have been confirmed to be in USAF inventory, however it is not clear if they were "Officially" given a GAU-5P designation.





If this is a GAU-5P, it would be based on a USAF rebuild.



The final Carbine in the USAF series would have been the GUU-5P. These carbines are all some form of a USAF rebuild. In these rebuilds the barrels on a GAU-5A, GAU-5AA, or a USAF M16 were replaced with a 14.5" barrel.







Photo Credits: ARFCOM Member CH139






The USAF Carbines pictured below do not fit "neatly" into any of the USAF Designations, and are a complete mix-match of parts. The "official" designation that we have given them is "USAF Mix-Master Franken-Carbines". There is a very good chance that these could actually be designated as GUU-5P. This just goes to show that the USAF were masters of rebuilding and recycling!




i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/USAF-3.jpg

i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/USAF-4.jpg


If you also check the USAF Carbines in the Historical Section below, you will also find many more examples of these  "USAF Mix-Master Franken-Carbines".

There is also a seperate topic that is discussing the USAF Carbines:
USAF GUU 5/P, need more info



Continued with next post

SECTION #2 - Colt Military Carbines "Historical Guide"

This section will document the "Historical Side" of the Colt Military Carbines.
This sections will be broken down into Military Operations and Branches of Service



MILITARY OPERATIONS

VIETNAM

Collection of weapons used by US Navy Seals. 3rd one from the top is a "very rare" Colt Model 607 which saw use in the field in very limited numbers


US Navy Seals. Seal to the Left or Rear is carrying a "very rare" Colt Model 607


US Army LRRP
XM177E1 (Colt Model 609), with the 4.5" Moderator removed
and replaced with an A1 Birdcage Flash Hider


US Army LRRP Patrol
XM177E1 (Colt Model 609)


LRRP Patrol
Left-Foreground XM177E1 (Colt Model 609), with the 4.5" Moderator
removed and replaced with an A1 Birdcage Flash Hider


US Army Air Cav Capt Hugh Mills
Shot down sixteen times, wounded three times, earned three Silver Stars, four Distinguished Flying Crosses, and three Bronze Stars with V devices
XM177E1 (Colt Model 609)


US Army Special Forces
XM177E2 (Colt Model 629)


Son Tay Raiders
From L to R: Col "Bull" Simons, Dick Meadows, Billy Moore


Son Tay Raiders
Possible Colt Model 630?

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member Ekie

The Weapons of the War - Bottom-Right XM177E1 (Colt Model 609)

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member Ekie

XM177E1 (Colt Model 609)

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member Ekie

XM177E1 (Colt Model 609) - Field Modification to Add Vertical Foregrip


XM177E2 (Colt Model 629) - Field Modification to Add Horizontal Foregrip

__________________________________________


1989 OPERATION JUST CAUSE - PANAMA
Delta Operators

__________________________________________


1990-91 OPERATION DESERT SHIELD / STORM - PERSIAN GULF
PSD Detail for General "Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf"









USAF Security Police

__________________________________________


1993 OPERATION RESTORE HOPE / GOTHIC SERPENT - SOMALIA

3/75 Rangers


Task Force Rangers Prior to Raid


Rangers Assigned to CSAR Prior to Raid


Ranger Chalk Leader SSG Eversmann


Delta Operators After Raid


__________________________________________


2002-Present Afghanistan & Iraq

USAF Engineer

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member T-Money

USAF Air Liason Officer with 20th ASOS working with US Army 10th Mountain

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member T-Money

USAF Special Ops TACP

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member T-Money

USAF Reserve EOD Personnel

Photo Credit: Provided by ARFCOM Member T-Money

USAF Security Police


USAF Security Police


USAF Security Police


US Navy Chief Petty Officer, Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Mobile Unit 4, Rumaylah Oil Field in Southern Iraq,


__________________________________________


BRANCHES OF SERVICE

US Air Force
1980 - MSGT Wayne Fisk


2004 - Retired CMSGT Wayne Fisk, having served over 30 years, earning two Silver Stars, a Defense Superior Service Medal, a Legion of Merit, two Distinguished Flying Crosses and 18 Air Medals



1981 - Combat Controller 1st Special Operations Wing


1981 - Combat Controller 1st Special Operations Wing


1981 - Security Policeman MSGT Morton, during exercise Busy Prairie II


1982 - TSGT Bob Wilkinson, Combat Control School


1982 - CCT School


1983 - 375th Security Police Squadron, Exercise Creek Warrior/Reforger


1988 - Airman 1st Class Michael A. Warner, Combat Controller, 1722nd Combat Control Squadron


1989 - 15th Security Police Squadron, Exercise Foal Eagle


1990 - 1720th Special Tactics Group


1990 - SMSGT Robert Boyle 1723rd COMBAT CONTROL


1990 - Combat Control School


1993 (est) - CCT Dan Schilling training with 160 SOAR


1998 - 24th Security Forces Squadron


2000's - Security Police


2000's - USAF TACP with 25th ASOS, operating with US Army's 25th Inf Div


2000's - USAF Security Police


2000's - USAF Pararescue


2001 - 51st Security Forces Squadron Counter-Terrorism Training


2004 - Security Police



Special Thanks to C. Hazell for the help with all of the USAF info
__________________________________________


US Army

1981 - Ranger from 2/75 during Exercise Ocean Venture
Colt Model 653


1981 - Ranger from 2/75 during Exercise Ocean Venture
Colt Model 653


Rangers 1980s-1990s
Colt Model 653


1982 - CPL Johnson, 238th Cavalry
Colt Model 653


1982 - Soldier from 2nd Battalion, 1st Infantry, 9th Division, at Ft Lewis, WA
Unknown Colt Model


Special Forces "Green Berets"


__________________________________________


US Marines

US Marine Recon
Possible Colt Model 727



__________________________________________


US Navy

1985 - US Navy Seal
Should be a Colt Model 609 (XM1777E1 Commando – US Army)
Appears it may not actually be a real firearm, may be a training aid


1987 - US Navy Seal
Multiple Colt Model 653's, 2 of which have M203 Grenade Launchers


US Navy Seal
Colt Model 653


US Navy Seal
Colt Model 653


US Navy Seal
Colt Model 727, with M-203 40mm Grenade Launcher


2001 - US Navy EOD RSO, with Lieutenant Commander from EOD Mobil Unit 17 training in Valdez, Alaska
Colt Model 727


2002 - US Coast Guard LT from Camp LeJeune, NC, during the Charleston Harbor's anti-terrorism exercise, Harbor Shield
Colt Model 653


US Navy Seal
"Frankencarbine" Possibly a Model 727 Upper on an A1 Lower with Fixed Buttstock


US Navy Seal
"Rubber Duck" Training Aid of a Colt Model 727



__________________________________________

Carbines in Foreign Military Service

Greek Special Forces















Israeli Defense Forces















Filipino Military & Police

















Thanks!
“Capt Richardson”

Special thanks to Ekie and Scottryan for their Technical Expertise and Assistance.

tag also

Thanks Cap't.

tag

Awesome work so far!  This is what makes AR15.com so great!!

Captain,
When you mean 'A2' carbine barrels do you mean 1:7 twist or do you mean "light under the handguards and heavy (0.75) from the FSB forward", or some combination?

I noticed your A2 14.5" looks like it's A1 profile as you can see alot more space between the FSB & barrel.

Nice work.

Have to be careful with the Air Force Carbines.  They are often custom builds.  For example the Female SP pictured has an old Carbine with a newer barrel.

The "franken gun" held by the SEAL appears to have a full blown A1 lower half.  Note the shadow on his glove, shows the profile of the receiver at the pivot pin area.

Do have some 653, and 727 pictures, but have not had time to go through them.

Sweet.
Outstanding!

Beautiful work, Captain!

Thank you, sir

Aren't the Gen 2, and Gen 3 buttstocks the same thing?

Quoted: Captain, When you mean 'A2' carbine barrels do you mean 1:7 twist or do you mean "light under the handguards and heavy (0.75) from the FSB forward", or some combination? I noticed your A2 14.5" looks like it's A1 profile as you can see alot more space between the FSB & barrel.

The profile of the 653 and the 723 barrel is the same, but the twist and markings are different.

Forest,

On the "A2 Barrels" I was trying to summarize which Barrel Lengths were used that would have had the "Heavier A2 Profile" and used the "A2 Birdcage Flashhider"

The photos that I used all identified the barrels as "A2", but I will agree that based on the profile in the picture alone, they may look like an A1.

If I can get a "better" photo, I will use them.

I will also be going back and adding more details such as barrel twists and fire control groups.


Ekie,
As always you nail it everytime!


Everyone,
Please keep in mind that many "Carbines" are "Frankencarbines", that is they are composed of a number different updates or field modifications. I have tried to use the photos that I have as a representative example, but in some cases there will be some variations.

If I have misidentified something please bring it to my attention, I am sure there have to be some "mistakes".

Thanks,
"Capt Richardson"  
 

Excellent post! Thanks a lot, that’s quite an effort you put forth. If I may I’d like to add a pic of my carbine, styled after the Colt Model 723 you have pictured. If you want you can save this pic and add it to your post.

Nice!!!!! Good post!

tag

Outstanding information.
I have to get me one of those 777 uppers.

Please don't take anything from Wikipedia.  Some of the people who wrote that article are worthless.

Some guy tried to get all over me for saying the grenade ring on the XM177E2 was for rifle grenades.

Also you need to change your nominclature.  You simply cannot say "A1" or "A2" profile.  You need to specifically describe each barrel.  Using "A1" or "A2" is too much of a blanket statement.

You should do your CAR stocks like this

Gen 1:  Type found on the 607
Gen 2:  Vynil Coated
Gen 3:  Original plastic
Gen 4:  Current plastic

629s and 630s never had a bayo lug.  

The picture you have is of an airsoft gun.

I wouldn't post any frakenguns either.

I would change the title of this thread to:

Colt SMG, Commando, and Carbine Variations

Quoted: You should do your CAR stocks like this Gen 1:  Type found on the 607 Gen 2:  Vynil Coated Gen 3:  Original plastic Gen 4:  Current plastic

I like this.

Also,

Change your "Duckbills" to Type 1 and Type 2 3-Prong.

IMO some criticism suggestions would be best offered via IM. It wasn't done for him, but for general reference- (us) You're right, but...................
My $.02

Great post and TAG!

Tag............................

UPDATE:

Changed Title

Changed 629 Photos
$@#! Airsoft Rifles & Replicas, especially when they are "Labeled" as the "Real Deal".
Also had conflicting data. I have 2 sources that do list 629 and 630 with a Bayonet Lug, could that be due to an "Early Model" not having a Lug, and a "Late Model" having a Lug?

Updated Buttstock Descriptions.
Does the Buttstock description in the chart with each model seem to fit that update?

On the Duckbill Flashhiders,
Is there a particular Duckbill Type that would have been on a 605, and that would have been on a 607? My info did not specify. If so I will make that correction.

On the A1 versus A2 Barrel Issue,
Not sure what you are getting at in regards to being more specific? Sorry, can you please elaborate, Thanks.
I will be adding the barrel twist for each model.

Thanks Ekie and Scottryan for the technical expertise, please keep the corrections and updates coming.

Thanks to everyone else for the positive feedback,
"Capt Richardson"

Quoted: On the Duckbill Flashhiders, Is there a particular Duckbill Type that would have been on a 605, and that would have been on a 607? My info did not specify. If so I will make that correction.

The thing with the flash hider is there is two different open pronged types.  In my guide I refered to the first one as a  "duck bill", and the second as three prong.  You are calling the second one "duck bill".   Don't think either of us is wrong, or right.  Seems to me Scott is saying to just call them Type 1, Type 2, etc, just to make things more clear.

Quoted: Updated Buttstock Descriptions. Does the Buttstock description in the chart with each model seem to fit that update?

The Gen 3, and Gen 4 buttstocks on these Carbines are the same thing.  Scott detailed them out a few posts prior.  That is they are "plastic", rather then the older aluminum Gen 2.  They also used the same 2 position receiver extention, castle nut, and receiver plate as did the older aluminum set up.

The 607 have a 3.5" solid moderator.

There is no such thing as a "A1" or "A2" barrel.  Barrel types come and go and span several models.

Barrel types should be spelled out like this for example on a 933:

.625" FSB, 1/7, 11.5"

or for a M16A2:

.750" FSB, 1/7, 20"

Let the FSB diameter tell the barrel profile.

Another example for a XM177E2

.625, 1/12, 11.5", CC

CC would be chrome chamber
CB would be fully chrome bore
NC would be no chrome

1/7 barrels would not need a chrome statement as all are fully chromed.

You could make up a code for all of this for example

L = .625 FSB
H = .750 FSB

12 = 1/12 twist
7 = 1/7 twist

W = 10"
X = 11.5"
Y = 14.5"
Z = 20"

so the XM177E2 barrel would be

L12CCX

.

I have a book special warfare special weapons...what model was the model#927 didnt see it listed.

Quoted: Also, I would say if the telestock is 2 or 4 positions.

Don't think that is necessary, none of these are 4 position.

Tag.

And for the love of God, tack this.

Quoted: Quoted: Also, I would say if the telestock is 2 or 4 positions. Don't think that is necessary, none of these are 4 position.

That is true, nevermind.

Quoted: I have a book special warfare special weapons...what model was the model#927 didnt see it listed.

That is a modern M4 variant, something outside the topic of this thread.

Quoted: Quoted: I have a book special warfare special weapons...what model was the model#927 didnt see it listed. That is a modern M4 variant, something outside the topic of this thread.

I maybe  that stuff should be added to this topic.

Gotcha on the Stocks, will double check the "Charts" to make sure that they are OK.

Gotcha on the Barrels,
I thought a .625 FSB was an "A1" barrel, and a .750 FSB was an "A2" Barrel, perhaps a better term would be A1, A2, or M4 "Barrel Profile".

I have Barrel Length. FSB Diameters, and Twist, not sure that I have the barrel data that includes the other details, but I will see what I can do.

Are the "Codes" that you provided actual "Colt Codes"?

Keep it coming, I will try to keep up!

Thanks,
"Capt Richardson"

Quoted: Gotcha on the Stocks, will double check the "Charts" to make sure that they are OK. Gotcha on the Barrels, I thought a .625 FSB was an "A1" barrel, and a .750 FSB was an "A2" Barrel, perhaps a better term would be A1, A2, or M4 "Barrel Profile". I have Barrel Length. FSB Diameters, and Twist, not sure that I have the barrel data that includes the other details, but I will see what I can do. Are the "Codes" that you provided actual "Colt Codes"? Keep it coming, I will try to keep up! Thanks, "Capt Richardson"

No they are not Colt codes.  It was something I made up.

Using A1, A2, and M4 to describe barrels is slang and doesn't really describe the barrel.

Here is an example where your barrel nomenclature is faulty.


Their are 14.5" barrels that are lightweight but have 1/7 twist and fully chromed.

With your nomenclature.  Your would have to describe this as an A1/A2 profile because it has a lightwieght profile (A1) but is internally an A2.

Here is another example:

On a 629 you have a lightweight 1/12 chome chamber barrel.


On a more recent 933 you have the same barrel lenght and profile but now the barrel is 1/7 and fully chromed.

Under your current system, both would be described as a "A1" but these two barrels are significanlty different.

.....or we could just go to www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/.

Posted a bunch of Govt Carbines pictures here:

photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/Govt%20Carbines/

Hey ryan, If you know so much about these, why didn't you take the time to post this.


Nice post capt

Quoted: The 607 have a 3.5" solid moderator. There is no such thing as a "A1" or "A2" barrel.  Barrel types come and go and span several models. Barrel types should be spelled out like this for example on a 933: .625" FSB, 1/7, 11.5" or for a M16A2: .750" FSB, 1/7, 20" Let the FSB diameter tell the barrel profile.

The problem with that idea is it might not cover all the barrel types (or maybe it does for these early models).  But I'm thinking of the M4 examples.  Orginal M4 had the 0.75 FSB, but it was light under the handguars while the M4A1 with the M4HB barrel was heavier under the handguards.

Are there similar variations for the pre-M4 carbines?

Quoted: Quoted: The 607 have a 3.5" solid moderator. There is no such thing as a "A1" or "A2" barrel.  Barrel types come and go and span several models. Barrel types should be spelled out like this for example on a 933: .625" FSB, 1/7, 11.5" or for a M16A2: .750" FSB, 1/7, 20" Let the FSB diameter tell the barrel profile. The problem with that idea is it might not cover all the barrel types (or maybe it does for these early models).  But I'm thinking of the M4 examples.  Orginal M4 had the 0.75 FSB, but it was light under the handguars while the M4A1 with the M4HB barrel was heavier under the handguards. Are there similar variations for the pre-M4 carbines?

I can't recall any variation like the M4A1 HB barrels for early shorties.

The only under the handguard varation I can think of is the slight contour change behind the handguard cap in about 1973.

To back up a second, I put the Wikipedia Link in because it is one of the only "Online Histories" that I am aware of. If there is another "Good Online History" then please let me know, and I can ditch the Wikipedia Link.

I will revamp the "Barrel Info", I will add the additional data that I have, but I will also obviously need all the help that I can get. This will probably take a day or two, so please bear with me.

Thanks for the "BigerHammer Link", I wish I could have had that about 3 weeks ago when I started this, I had seen it before, but for some reason I did not go back to it! Stupid Me! I will add it to the front of the post as a reference. It is a great reference, hopefully this one will meet it, or even exceed it.

On including the "M4" info in this topic, I am not real sure if we should include it, given that this is already a pretty big topic. I think it would be a great idea to start an "M4 Guide, just not sure if we should add it here. However this topic is whatever you guys want to make it.

Ekie, thanks for all of the pics, I will go back and incorporate as many of them as I can.

ptoguy2002, thanks for the input. I can see how some people may not take scottryan’s comments as being in the best light, but he is taking the time to review this and offer suggestions and corrections, so I am glad to have his input.

I hope we can keep this in a positive light, and I hope we can keep making progress. I have seen way to many topics here spin off into oblivion.

Thanks again to everyone, and please keep offering the suggestions and info,
“Capt Richardson”    

Quoted: I can see how some people may not take scottryan’s comments as being in the best light, but he is taking the time to review this and offer suggestions and corrections, so I am glad to have his input. I hope we can keep this in a positive light, and I hope we can keep making progress. I have seen way to many topics here spin off into oblivion.

Yes, I would like to see this tacked and in order for that to happen, it must be 100% correct.  

Capt Richardson has done a good job and in no way am I trying to bash him.

great post!