User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 6:14:26 PM EDT
I posted previously about taking fired steel case, Berdan primed 7.62x39mm cases and
reforming them as 6.5mm Grendel. Basically to recap I took fired 7.62x39mm cases and ran them through a standard 6.5mm Grendel die reforming the case, punching a center primer hole, punching out the old Berdan anvil and the fired primer. I then seated a new Boxer primer and epoxied it in place. With that I had a 6.5x39mm, not quite a Grendel. Next I called up Bill Alexander and discussed the matter with him. He gave me a fireforming load and I loaded up one case for a test. I just walked out back and touched it off. The round fed, fired and ejected normally. Locked the bolt back. Rang a LaRue too! The big question though was what would the case look like? Would it form to 6.5mm Grendel dimensions or just split? I looked around on the ground and found it and it had formed normally. Looks just like a steel 6.5mm Grendel case would. No problems with the primer either. I'll reload it and try again. Plus I'll make some more 7.62x39mm empties to reload. Load was a 107 grain Sierra MatchKing over a light load of TAC. What do yah think? I'll try to get pics (yes I took them) up later. ETA OK, here's a pic of what the loaded round looked like after loading compared to a 6.5mm Grendel round. Note it still has the taper from its 7.62x39mm lineage 
Here's the fired case compared to a 6.5mm Grendel and steel case 7.62x39mm 
This is a look at the primer after firing. Looks fine. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 6:22:24 PM EDT
[#1]
That sounds great. American ingenuity at its finest.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 6:37:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I then seated a new Boxer primer and epoxied it in place. You had my interest up till that part. Wut? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 6:46:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I then seated a new Boxer primer and epoxied it in place. You had my interest up till that part. Wut? The Berdan primers utilized in the 7.62x39mm cases are ever so slightly larger than a Boxer Large Rifle primer. The quick solution is to simply seat them and then run some lock-tite or nail polish over the top. OR you could use a steel ball bearing to size the pocket down slightly to properly hold Boxer primers. As this was simply a test I ran some Lock-tite over the top, let it dry and then loaded it. No issues at all with the primer, looks normal and did not budge. This is how someone else on another board is reloading Berdan primed 7.62x39mm. I too was like, "Wut?" til I tried it. There are a couple angles you can take on this. 1. Take loaded steel case 7.62x39mm ammunition, pull it down (with a press mounted bullet puller), reform in a 6.5mm Grendel die. Load using the original powder and a 6.5mm bullet. Let the cases lie on the ground or pick them back up and reload using Boxer primers. 2. Take loaded surplus brass case Berdan primed 7.62x39mm and do as above. 3. Take fired 7.62x39mm steel or brass case Berdan primed cases and reload them. It's really pretty easy. I am going to do a bunch more testing and let yah know how it goes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 6:58:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
1. Take loaded steel case 7.62x39mm ammunition, pull it down (with a press mounted bullet puller), reform in a 6.5mm Grendel die. Load using the original powder and a 6.5mm bullet. Let the cases lie on the ground or pick them back up and reload using Boxer primers. That's pretty much what I would plan to do with them. Mexican Match... 
I can't thank you enough for doing this testing. I kind of thought you might have a size mismatch with the Berdan/Boxer priming, but didn't know which way it would go. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 7:10:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. Take loaded steel case 7.62x39mm ammunition, pull it down (with a press mounted bullet puller), reform in a 6.5mm Grendel die. Load using the original powder and a 6.5mm bullet. Let the cases lie on the ground or pick them back up and reload using Boxer primers. That's pretty much what I would plan to do with them. Mexican Match...
I can't thank you enough for doing this testing. I kind of thought you might have a size mismatch with the Berdan/Boxer priming, but didn't know which way it would go. Well my whole concept for this was simply to come up with some inexpensive ammunition for shooting steel with. 6.5x39mm would work fine for this. You could buy a case of Wolf 7.62x39mm, pull the bullets, reuse the powder and reload. Then sell the pulled projectiles to get some of your money back if you wanted to. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 8:22:46 PM EDT
[#6]
What dies are you using, and what part number for the epoxy?
John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 8:48:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
I posted previously about taking fired steel case, Berdan primed 7.62x39mm cases and reforming them as 6.5mm Grendel. Basically to recap I took fired 7.62x39mm cases and ran them through a standard 6.5mm Grendel die reforming the case, punching a center primer hole, punching out the old Berdan anvil and the fired primer... You just punched a center flash hole with a the regular decapping pin in a resizing die? If not, what did you us to form the flash hole? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 9:06:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I posted previously about taking fired steel case, Berdan primed 7.62x39mm cases and reforming them as 6.5mm Grendel. Basically to recap I took fired 7.62x39mm cases and ran them through a standard 6.5mm Grendel die reforming the case, punching a center primer hole, punching out the old Berdan anvil and the fired primer... You just punched a center flash hole with a the regular decapping pin in a resizing die? If not, what did you us to form the flash hole? Yep..........ran them through an RCBS 7.62x39mm sizing die to decap and punch the new hole. (had to tighten the decapping pin down TIGHT) I would expect to break some pins, but they are cheap. then I ran them through a Lee Grendel sizing die |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 9:08:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
What dies are you using, and what part number for the epoxy? John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com I'd have to check on the lock-tite, it was just sitting by my bench. The guy I got the trick from switched to cheap nail polish though and said it worked just as well........ |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2009 10:27:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Interesting ... at N = 1
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 9:53:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Yep..........ran them through an RCBS 7.62x39mm sizing die to decap and punch the new hole. (had to tighten the decapping pin down TIGHT) I would expect to break some pins, but they are cheap. then I ran them through a Lee Grendel sizing die Cool. I have necked up/down brass before, how difficult was reshaping the steel case versus a similar operation with brass cases? What are you using for resizing lube? Although not as extreme as what you are doing, I have been thinking about reloading S&B steel 9mm cases because I have a lot of them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:22:58 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yep..........ran them through an RCBS 7.62x39mm sizing die to decap and punch the new hole. (had to tighten the decapping pin down TIGHT) I would expect to break some pins, but they are cheap. then I ran them through a Lee Grendel sizing die Cool. I have necked up/down brass before, how difficult was reshaping the steel case versus a similar operation with brass cases? What are you using for resizing lube? Although not as extreme as what you are doing, I have been thinking about reloading S&B steel 9mm cases because I have a lot of them. forming the case feels no different then running a fired Grendel through a sizing die. Requires very little effort. I noticed no difference reforming brass or steel cases. Lube, I have used different types, they all seemed to work fine. I would try loading your S&B cases. Just have some spare decapping pins on hand (they are very inexpensive) and do not load hot. See how it goes and report back here!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 4:46:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Now I feel guilty leaving all that Wolf behind!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 7:54:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
That sounds great. American ingenuity at its finest. I agree with this, x100. But is it really worth the extra work? Just wondering. Or did you just do it to see if it could be done? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:24:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That sounds great. American ingenuity at its finest. I agree with this, x100. But is it really worth the extra work? Just wondering. Or did you just do it to see if it could be done? Well, there really isn't a whole lot of extra work. you take your empty case and run it through a 7.62x39mm die to decap and punch the new primer hole run it through a 6.5mm Grendel sizing die. Prime it and wipe some lock-tite or nail polish over the primer and let sit till dry. Then load normally. If I can make 6.5mm Grendel cases from stuff everyone else would leave on the ground, why not. Free brass is free brass. Plus, I would much rather rattle off a pile of this stuff at steel where I might lose a bunch of the cases then lose some of my Lapua cases......yah know...... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:40:45 PM EDT
[#16]
Niiiiiice!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:42:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Plus, I would much rather rattle off a pile of this stuff at steel where I might lose a bunch of the cases then lose some of my Lapua cases......yah know...... Brilliant! Thank you for the narrative, and for fielding all of the questions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/19/2009 6:01:23 AM EDT
[#18]
This will get me shooting my idle Grendel all the more. I've been so stuck on reloading 6.8 SPC lately that it's been the only one of the two I shoot. I have (literally) tons of steel cased 762x39, and would much rather shoot the G than the AK or AR in that caliber using steel...
Thanks for the effort and ingenuity! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:58:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That sounds great. American ingenuity at its finest. I agree with this, x100. But is it really worth the extra work? Just wondering. Or did you just do it to see if it could be done? Well, there really isn't a whole lot of extra work. you take your empty case and run it through a 7.62x39mm die to decap and punch the new primer hole run it through a 6.5mm Grendel sizing die. Prime it and wipe some lock-tite or nail polish over the primer and let sit till dry. Then load normally. Awesome. I use the CProducts 7.62x39 mags to run my fireforming load as a short range training load. They've been 100% over 500 rounds so far. I also built a brass catcher. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/19/2009 8:06:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That sounds great. American ingenuity at its finest. I agree with this, x100. But is it really worth the extra work? Just wondering. Or did you just do it to see if it could be done? Well, there really isn't a whole lot of extra work. you take your empty case and run it through a 7.62x39mm die to decap and punch the new primer hole run it through a 6.5mm Grendel sizing die. Prime it and wipe some lock-tite or nail polish over the primer and let sit till dry. Then load normally. Awesome. I use the CProducts 7.62x39 mags to run my fireforming load as a short range training load. They've been 100% over 500 rounds so far. I also built a brass catcher. thanks for the input!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:47:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Here's a quick update.
One question was case life. Exactly how long would a steel case last? One loading....two or maybe three? To find out I took one case today and fired until failure. I started with a fired 7.62x39mm Berdan primed steel case manufactured by Uly which was lacquer coated. I fired it once as a 6.5x39mm to fireform to Grendel. I then reloaded it three times with the same load (107 grain Sierra MatchKing on top of TAC) On the fourth reload (5th firing total) the case split slightly at the mouth. I carefully inspected the case after each firing, and noted no issues til the case mouth split. I did note that after epoxying the Boxer primer in, there was sufficient epoxy left around the interior of the primer pocket that reload 2 and 3 was performed normally with no additional epoxy required. The fired Boxer primer punched out normally, and a new primer seated tightly, just as if it was a normal Boxer case. Cool. I cleaned the primer pocket vigorously after the third reload (stupid me) and so had to epoxy the primer in for the fourth, and final, reload. ZERO problems were encountered regarding primers, or in any other form actually. I lightly lubed the case before each resizing and the lacquer stayed put on the case body and shoulder, put was removed from the case neck during sizing. The lacquer coating posed no problems during testing. I did not shoot for accuracy, just function and case life. However, every single round hit a LaRue at 100 yards.....for whatever that's worth. If nothing else it appears this method will work quite well for my intended purpose of shooting steel on my carbine range. Case life is perhaps a bit better than expected. After the original conversion to Boxer priming the case reloads as easily as any other Boxer primed 6.5mm Grendel case. Once the conversion is done, basically it's all gravy. Right now I am very pleased with my initial results. Next I will fire for accuracy and velocity. Any and all comments, thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:53:35 PM EDT
[#22]
That is exactly the test I was hoping you'd do. Great work.
You could probably get longer neck life by annealing after the second reload. But maybe steel cases aren't worth all this trouble. Four reloads is already exceptional for free cases. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:01:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
That is exactly the test I was hoping you'd do. Great work. You could probably get longer neck life by annealing after the second reload. But maybe steel cases aren't worth all this trouble. Four reloads is already exceptional for free cases. I think you are right about annealing. I'll have to look into the proper way for annealing steel cases though........ but like you said, the question is whether it would be worth it or not. Only one way to find out............... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:28:35 PM EDT
[#24]
If I could find some AA2460 or 2520, I'd be doing this all afternoon today. I have some Lee dies I don't use and a bunch of old steel cases...
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:13:15 PM EDT
[#25]
"I'll have to look into the proper way for annealing steel cases though........ "
Heat the neck until it doesnt attract a magnet, then shove the case neck first into sand, vermiculite, or wood ashes so that it cools slowly. The trick will be keeping the heat out of the body of the case, where you probably dont want it to get softer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2009 4:21:54 AM EDT
[#26]
I admit I am surprised it turned out so well. I figured the case body would split upon firing, but the steel must be more malleable than I thought. I doubt annealing the case would be worth the effort, besides the lacquer coating would be removed and it would be prone to rust.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2009 10:12:09 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
"I'll have to look into the proper way for annealing steel cases though........ " Heat the neck until it doesnt attract a magnet, then shove the case neck first into sand, vermiculite, or wood ashes so that it cools slowly. The trick will be keeping the heat out of the body of the case, where you probably dont want it to get softer. Stand in shallow pan of water to keep the bases cool, and let them air cool? About rusting, How does the laquer remain intact after the fire forming? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2009 2:58:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"I'll have to look into the proper way for annealing steel cases though........ " Heat the neck until it doesnt attract a magnet, then shove the case neck first into sand, vermiculite, or wood ashes so that it cools slowly. The trick will be keeping the heat out of the body of the case, where you probably dont want it to get softer. Stand in shallow pan of water to keep the bases cool, and let them air cool? About rusting, How does the laquer remain intact after the fire forming? fireforming didn't bother it and neither did resizing. The only place I lost it was on the neck from sizing it down to 6.5mm and finally off the shoulder after 4 reloads. It held up great on the body..... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2009 3:57:15 PM EDT
[#29]
As these are practice & plinking rounds, I really wouldn't worry about the rust issue.
I'm interested in the what kind of accuracy you can get from these reloads. I'm assuming 4moa should be very easy to acheive? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2009 4:08:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Tag.
Anyone want to try hydroforming the steel cased? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2009 4:04:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Interesting thread indeed.
How hot was your fireforming load/ Have you chronograpghed it? This makes me wonder if I can in fact still shoot steel cased ammunition in my 7.62x39 30 degree improved bench gun. I had just assumed that steel would rupture. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2009 9:12:59 AM EDT
[#32]
I don't think you'd have any problem...........
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2009 7:56:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Interesting thread indeed. How hot was your fireforming load/ Have you chronograpghed it? This makes me wonder if I can in fact still shoot steel cased ammunition in my 7.62x39 30 degree improved bench gun. I had just assumed that steel would rupture. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Stevens%20200/HPIM2367.jpg Is that for Hunter Class Benchrest competition? If so, seems like a slick (for accuracy and cost) choice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/24/2009 2:17:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Interesting thread indeed. How hot was your fireforming load/ Have you chronograpghed it? This makes me wonder if I can in fact still shoot steel cased ammunition in my 7.62x39 30 degree improved bench gun. I had just assumed that steel would rupture. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Stevens%20200/HPIM2367.jpg Is that for Hunter Class Benchrest competition? If so, seems like a slick (for accuracy and cost) choice. Unfortunately our club doesn't have a BR match, No this round and rifle are purely recreational group shooting implements. The cost component is where this shines, No custom dies no mega$$$$ brass either, very very efficient usage of powder too. I just fireform sorted and prepped rem SR cases and after that neck size in a Lee 7.62x39mm collet neck die rinse and repeat |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/24/2009 6:07:28 PM EDT
[#35]
wow that is awesome GW
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/25/2009 2:21:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Cool
Your interest in doing things like this is what makes your articles better than any of your other Intermedia colleagues (Lane Pearce excluded). You are however rubbing salt in an old wound reminding of what it use to be like to walk right out the back door to test something. Keep up the good work. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2009 12:27:14 AM EDT
[#37]
I am very interested in your method of decapping the berdan primed brass. I have always broken decapping pins with this method. How many cases have you been able do decap without breaking the pin?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2009 10:46:14 AM EDT
[#38]
You might want to give your thoughts on this one too http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=283719
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2009 10:48:05 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
I am very interested in your method of decapping the berdan primed brass. I have always broken decapping pins with this method. How many cases have you been able do decap without breaking the pin? I actually a pic of that would be interesting. I assume to sticks a new hole between the two Berdan flash holes there by closing them shut....... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2009 12:32:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am very interested in your method of decapping the berdan primed brass. I have always broken decapping pins with this method. How many cases have you been able do decap without breaking the pin? I actually a pic of that would be interesting. I assume to sticks a new hole between the two Berdan flash holes there by closing them shut....... No, you just punch a new center hole between the two original holes for the Berdan primer. I had a chance to do a bit more testing. This time using formed cases (6.5x39, not fireformed yet), Russian powder and 107 grain MatchKings. At 90 degrees F, 1030 feet above sea level they averaged 2,630 fps out of my 16 inch carbine. This was measured 12 feet from the muzzle with an Oehler 35P for an 8 round string. Next time I have the chance I will put together a few loads and put them on paper. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2009 5:32:59 PM EDT
[#41]
That load has got to be over the Grendel pressure max.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2009 1:12:27 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
That load has got to be over the Grendel pressure max. I'm not a 6.5G reloader....yet, but will be soon. I will say that those MV's look a little high from what reloading recipes I have come across so far. I got a few questions for you if you don't mind. How many grains are you loading into each cartridge? What primer's are you using? What is the COAL? Do you know what pressure that load is producing?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2009 2:06:34 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That load has got to be over the Grendel pressure max. I'm not a 6.5G reloader....yet, but will be soon. I will say that those MV's look a little high from what reloading recipes I have come across so far. Well I know that 2630 is faster than the published max loads for the best powder, so with this Russian 7.62x39 powder it has to be over pressure. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:56:18 PM EDT
[#44]
tag
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:50:34 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That load has got to be over the Grendel pressure max. I'm not a 6.5G reloader....yet, but will be soon. I will say that those MV's look a little high from what reloading recipes I have come across so far. I got a few questions for you if you don't mind. How many grains are you loading into each cartridge? What primer's are you using? What is the COAL? Do you know what pressure that load is producing?
No doubt that load is hot, but the point was to see how the steel cases would do. So far I am quite happy with this project. When things slow down at work I'll get back to it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/22/2009 10:28:37 PM EDT
[#46]
tag
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2009 4:16:42 PM EDT
[#47]
This has me eyeballing the 8.5k stash of 5.45x39 that I have.
A 6x39 or 6.3x39 would be really cool. Or . . . maybe a new .30 variant . . . hhhmmm. ETA- Just recently aquired a 6.8x41 bbl based on the 5.56/.223 and am looking at Tula/Wulf steel case that is boxer primed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/3/2010 6:10:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That load has got to be over the Grendel pressure max. I'm not a 6.5G reloader....yet, but will be soon. I will say that those MV's look a little high from what reloading recipes I have come across so far. I got a few questions for you if you don't mind. How many grains are you loading into each cartridge? What primer's are you using? What is the COAL? Do you know what pressure that load is producing?
No doubt that load is hot, but the point was to see how the steel cases would do. So far I am quite happy with this project. When things slow down at work I'll get back to it. Any more news? I am looking at a 6.5 and this is interesting for me. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/3/2010 7:15:15 PM EDT
[#49]
I've been very busy due to work and have not done extensive load testing.
Waiting for warmer weather for that. But so far everything I have done has worked fine. No issues. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/4/2010 8:17:00 AM EDT
[#50]
There's actually a company that will resize and reprime Berdan cases, either steel or brass. I'd think that getting them to resize for 6.5 Grendel might not be too hard. I can see doing the fire forming myself, using unfired 7.62x39 cases, then sending them off to be handled by the company that does this on automated machinery.
http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/reload3.html See also Berdan reloading info: http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/berdanreloading/index.asp Other conversion info: http://users.ameritech.net/mchandler/primer.html |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
