6.5 Grendel Wolf Gold Ammo Warning

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 6.5 Grendel Wolf Gold Ammo Warning

Posted: 8/23/2008 9:43:29 AM EDT

Gents,

Crap, just found the article below on JPs website...I just ordered and received 500 rounds of Wolf MPT. Now what - test a few rounds and check for overpressure issues/signs or send back for refund immediately?

6.5 Grendel Ammo Warning

your thoughts...

Sakic #19

Posted: 8/23/2008 10:01:52 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Gents,

Crap, just found the article below on JPs website...I just ordered and received 500 rounds of Wolf MPT. Now what - test a few rounds and check for overpressure issues/signs or send back for refund immediately?

6.5 Grendel Ammo Warning

your thoughts...

Sakic #19

My thoughts: guess 6-8 isn't the only one with ammo concerns now.

I'm sure they'll get it all sorted out....just sucks about the Wolf as it was a low cost alternative for plinking.

Sean

Posted: 8/23/2008 10:31:57 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Gents,

Crap, just found the article below on JPs website...I just ordered and received 500 rounds of Wolf MPT. Now what - test a few rounds and check for overpressure issues/signs or send back for refund immediately?

6.5 Grendel Ammo Warning

your thoughts...

Sakic #19

Do you have a JP upper?

I'll post this over at 6.5Grendel.com and see what, if anything, they know.

I do know that the 123gr SP WOLF ammo has issues with the copper fouling, due to the jacket material.

Posted: 8/23/2008 11:49:45 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gents,

Crap, just found the article below on JPs website...I just ordered and received 500 rounds of Wolf MPT. Now what - test a few rounds and check for overpressure issues/signs or send back for refund immediately?

6.5 Grendel Ammo Warning

your thoughts...

Sakic #19

Do you have a JP upper?

I'll post this over at 6.5Grendel.com and see what, if anything, they know.

I do know that the 123gr SP WOLF ammo has issues with the copper fouling, due to the jacket material.

No, but I do have a couple of brand new Sabre Defence rifles in 6.5 Grendel. In the interim, I do have some Black Hills and AA ammo to burn, pending my decision on what to do with the Wolf.

Sakic #19

Posted: 8/23/2008 12:36:48 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Gents,

Crap, just found the article below on JPs website...I just ordered and received 500 rounds of Wolf MPT. Now what - test a few rounds and check for overpressure issues/signs or send back for refund immediately?

6.5 Grendel Ammo Warning

your thoughts...

Sakic #19

I'll buy that Wolf from you for 75% of what you paid for it (seriously)!

Posted: 8/23/2008 12:51:16 PM EDT

[#5]

The primers falling out does not always mean that the operating pressure is too high.

Early, but well known, issues that have come up with the WOLF 123gr SP are both the jacket material and the case head are a bit soft.

The soft jacket can foul some barrels rather badly.

The soft case head can cause loose both primer pockets and the primers to fall out.

The 120gr MPT round does not suffer from these issues, but because WOLF has a Large Rifle Primer pocket, you will have to reduce the max charges in your reloads by 1.0gr to 1.5gr.

Posted: 8/23/2008 1:10:38 PM EDT

[#6]

I visit the Grendel forum every day. If this was happening I would think that would be one of the first places it would have been heard of and yet I haven't seen a single post talking about Wolf ammo being too hot, not one single post. In fact it is generally accepted that the Wolf ammo is on the anemic side, same as always.

I believe that every loading that Wolf makes is tested by Bill A and given an ok from him before production. Bill is very well known for playing it safe when it come to reloads and factory ammo pressures, so I doubt he would give an OK for anything that even comes close to exceeding safe limits.

Posted: 8/23/2008 4:43:12 PM EDT

[#7]

Be interesting to know what John Paul thinks and why he felt the need to issue such a statement. I mean the guy is no slouch in the shooting world... I guess it just depends on who you choose to believe.

I agree, the wolf ammo supposedly being under powered would give cause for JP to issue this warning is strange.

Has anyone used wolf 6.5 G in a bolt gun yet?

Posted: 8/23/2008 5:46:39 PM EDT

[#8]

Bill Alexander has made a few posts about this on 65grendel

Here

Posted: 8/23/2008 6:29:35 PM EDT

[#9]

Correct me if I am wrong, but JP rifles barrels ARE NOT CL correct? Just curious.
JP makes great stuff or so I think.

BIll A seemed to clear up any misconceptions about the ammo, thats for sure.

Posted: 8/24/2008 1:14:32 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Correct me if I am wrong, but JP rifles barrels ARE NOT CL correct? Just curious.
JP makes great stuff or so I think.

BIll A seemed to clear up any misconceptions about the ammo, thats for sure.

I seriously doubt they are CL because the ones I've seen are SS, but can't say for certain.

Hey Joe, If I were in your shoes, I would sit back and relax until this gets sorted out. If you read the thread at 65grendel, it appears that there is more confusion than facts at the moment, because no one knows why JP issued the warning, and Bill is standing by the safety of Wolf.

Posted: 8/24/2008 11:28:22 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Correct me if I am wrong, but JP rifles barrels ARE NOT CL correct? Just curious.
JP makes great stuff or so I think.

BIll A seemed to clear up any misconceptions about the ammo, thats for sure.

I seriously doubt they are CL because the ones I've seen are SS, but can't say for certain.

Hey Joe, If I were in your shoes, I would sit back and relax until this gets sorted out. If you read the thread at 65grendel, it appears that there is more confusion than facts at the moment, because no one knows why JP issued the warning, and Bill is standing by the safety of Wolf.

Good point - I'm a member on 65Grendel as well - in hindsight, I should have posted there first, but, since my thread made it's way over it all good. Moverover, I'll wait for resolution on the matter before doing anything regarding the half case of Wolf MPT I just received.

Thanks all!

Sakic #19

Posted: 8/24/2008 3:46:33 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Correct me if I am wrong, but JP rifles barrels ARE NOT CL correct? Just curious.
JP makes great stuff or so I think.

BIll A seemed to clear up any misconceptions about the ammo, thats for sure.

I seriously doubt they are CL because the ones I've seen are SS, but can't say for certain.

Hey Joe, If I were in your shoes, I would sit back and relax until this gets sorted out. If you read the thread at 65grendel, it appears that there is more confusion than facts at the moment, because no one knows why JP issued the warning, and Bill is standing by the safety of Wolf.

Good point - I'm a member on 65Grendel as well - in hindsight, I should have posted there first, but, since my thread made it's way over it all good. Moverover, I'll wait for resolution on the matter before doing anything regarding the half case of Wolf MPT I just received.

Thanks all!

Sakic #19

Also...I know enough about Bill Alexander to know that if something wasn't safe with his rifle or ammo, that he'd warn against it. (because I've seen it several times)

Posted: 8/26/2008 6:30:51 PM EDT

[#13]

Did anyone call and ask JP if it was just a match chamber issue? Or what their reasons were for the warning? Im going to get the CZ but now I wonder what chamber they use. I emiled the seller.

Does anyone know if the CZ action that has the 6.5 G barrel use the AA chamber or is it a homebrew job?

Posted: 8/26/2008 6:39:25 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Did anyone call and ask JP if it was just a match chamber issue? Or what their reasons were for the warning? Im going to get the CZ but now I wonder what chamber they use. I emiled the seller.

Does anyone know if the CZ action that has the 6.5 G barrel use the AA chamber or is it a homebrew job?

Cold, the one I saw, and the three that have been on 65Grendel have been home brews.

Posted: 8/26/2008 6:43:01 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did anyone call and ask JP if it was just a match chamber issue? Or what their reasons were for the warning? Im going to get the CZ but now I wonder what chamber they use. I emiled the seller.

Does anyone know if the CZ action that has the 6.5 G barrel use the AA chamber or is it a homebrew job?

Cold, the one I saw, and the three that have been on 65Grendel have been home brews.

Did they reverse eng the Chamber? Or? Any ideas?

Posted: 8/26/2008 6:49:31 PM EDT

[#16]

From JP:

Generally, I make it a point not to get involved in chat rooms about rifles, ours or those from other manufactures for obvious reasons. Not to mention that we here are all to busy trying to keep up with orders to be involved in online conversations. However, you may post my response if you'd like. Quite honestly, I never imagined that our safety notice would cause such a stir.

Let me first say that we are licensed by AA to chamber for the 6.5 Grendel® in our rifles. We are using AA bolts and the reamers/gages from the source recommended to us by Bill Alexander himself. Our barrels are manufactured from the best 416 SS alloy and cryo-treated. So we have no reason to believe that our barrels/chambers are not within the accepted range of specifications and we have had excellent feedback so far in terms of both accuracy and reliability. The 6.5 Grendel® is a great cartridge offering outstanding ballistic performance form the M-15/16 platform.

As a fellow manufacture, Bill's take on this is spot on. Product liability insurance demands all kinds of documentation now days and this was first and fore most about that. So I'd strongly recommend that everyone take a chill pill, have a beer and relax.

I stand by what I've said other than that I probably should have used the words "may not be safe" rather than "is not safe" while referring to "certain factory ammunition". I'll make that change.

What precipitated this notice? About a month ago, we were sent a case that had failed in one of our rifles. This was a factory round from Wolf in their 123 grain copper soft point loading. It had ruptured in the customers gun, causing the usual mischief of blowing out the magazine floor plate, etc. but no damage to the rifle or shooter. The failure was contained and directed as the engineering intends. Always a nasty surprise if you've never had it happen before. But I can guarantee you this, just like the "accidental discharge", shooters fall into only two categories, those that have experienced a ruptured case and those who will.

Three things were obvious. 1: This was an over-pressured round as evidenced by the expansion at the base of the case, brass extrusion into the ejector pin hole and of course, the failure of the case into the ejector cut out. 2: It was apparent that the case may have had (in my opinion) metallurgical properties which contributed to the failure of the case. 3. The bore exhibited unusual copper fouling which may have contributed to the failure.

This may have been an anomaly but we have to take the most conservative posture. There may have been some other extenuating circumstance when this round was fired that added to the problem that we are not aware of. Typically, any malfunction or failure is usually the result of several additive causes coming together to push any given system out of the envelope.

I've did a fair amount of load experimentation prior to taking orders and shipping rifles and it was apparent that the Lapua cases can take quite a bit of abuse without resulting in catastrophic failure mode. (ruptured cases) This indicates superior metallurgy for the application. The Lapua brass in my opinion is one of the necessary ingredients for successful loading of this cartridge.

It was also apparent in my testing that this was a cartridge that could get people into some trouble as it is only human nature to push things to the limit. A conservative approach will yield the best results with the 6.5 Grendel® and that's what we want to encourage.

Again, these are my opinions only, based on my experience as a professional shooter and designer/manufacturer of custom rifles. You're free to take it or leave it as you see fit.

Sincerely,
John Paul

Posted: 8/26/2008 6:54:49 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did anyone call and ask JP if it was just a match chamber issue? Or what their reasons were for the warning? Im going to get the CZ but now I wonder what chamber they use. I emiled the seller.

Does anyone know if the CZ action that has the 6.5 G barrel use the AA chamber or is it a homebrew job?

Cold, the one I saw, and the three that have been on 65Grendel have been home brews.

Did they reverse eng the Chamber? Or? Any ideas?

When I said, home brews, I ment that there were no factory rifles.

All three sporters on 65Grendel were done by Jim Brockman using LW barrels and the one I saw used a match reamer rented from PTG. Others have used the PTG match reamer or made custom reamers with custom leades/throats.

Sorry if I confused you. Wasn't my intent.

Posted: 8/26/2008 7:02:49 PM EDT

[#18]

Thanks, fnfal_308

JP explaination sounds about right to me.

Soft case heads + Soft copper jacket + Large Rifle Primer Pocket = FAIL

Since the first few pallets of 123gr SP ammo, the case heads have been strengthened, that said the bullet is still ca-ca and the LR Primer Pocket is still an issue with hot reloads.

That said WOLF is cheaper than AA (private label Lapua) or Lapua Factory Ammo.

The WOLF 120 MPT Ammo is not a bad load, for cheap (relatively) blasting ammo.

Posted: 8/27/2008 8:07:15 AM EDT

[#19]

JP changed their warning:

Here

Posted: 8/27/2008 1:10:23 PM EDT

[#20]

It looks like JP was trying to play it safe and ended up going a bit too far in that direction.

They had one round that a customer reported had blown. Based on this and their overall experience with Wolf ammo, they issued the first warning.

Now that they've examined things in more detail, they've put out a second notice that doesn't even mention Wolf at all.

Posted: 8/27/2008 6:19:41 PM EDT

[#21]

Not much to see here, move along.

Except Centerfire is selling some cheap Wolf.

www.centerfiresystems.com

Posted: 8/28/2008 12:31:44 AM EDT

[#22]

Even cheaper from AA directly

www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.htm?cat=15&item=101

$10.77 a box, or $269.25 for a case of 500rnds. Thats for the 120 MPT loading. Avoid the 123grn. SP loading like the plague it's crappy stuff. The MPT is quite good for the price though (It's on average a 1.25-1.5 moa loading).

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 6.5 Grendel Wolf Gold Ammo Warning

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