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Posted: 7/25/2006 7:01:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Im curious to know if anyone has one in hand yet, and what the energy is at muzzle etc. I didnt see anything on Bushies site about the round etc. Also, is anyone loading ammo for them?
ETA:Off the bushie web site "The .45 Bushmaster - big bore power in an “AR” platform - one gun industry writer exclaimed… “I’ve found my new hog-hunting gun!” This powerful cartridge - developed in affiliation with Hornady - is tamed by the AR type gas operating system so that recoil is reduced to a heavy thump, and second shot control is retained. Standard AR type 30 round magazines are fitted with a blue single stack follower to yield a full magazine capacity of nine rounds." So Hornady is loading them or did Steve H just help them out with the design? |
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Posted: 7/26/2006 5:58:00 AM EDT
[#2]
Why would they go with a round of their own design when the 458 Socom seems to be well accepted overall? I can't imagine licensing expense would be a factor. Is this some sort of competition with RRA like Remington versus Winchester over the magnum rifles?
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Posted: 7/26/2006 7:04:51 AM EDT
[#3]
That looks like a bad idea. The case is way too long. It also appears that the bullet is a .451" .45ACP hardball bullet. Even if it is .452 for the Casull type bullets, the case is so long, many of those bullets would be pushed past the ogive before the OAL is short enough to fit in the mag.
My guess is that Hornady is going to load it with their light/short red tipped bullet used in the .460 Smith & Wesson. |
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Posted: 7/26/2006 7:44:32 AM EDT
[#4]
I always like hearing these type of oxymorons "recoil is reduced to a heavy thump." Ah Yes, the light and comfortable recoil of a heavy thump.
 I'm being silly. I'm sure the recoil will be comprable to the .458 Socom. Which, I think is better described as "not bad." But I guess that description won't sell rifles. Just thought that the heavy thump was a funny way of talking about reduced recoil.Anyway, isn't Bushmaster trying to re-invent the wheel? If the .458 Socom is out there, accepted, why start over? |
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Posted: 7/26/2006 8:20:44 AM EDT
[#5]
well its cool to have your name on a round these days...let me see.. .204 Ruger 45 Auto Colt Pistol 17 Hornady Rimfire Mag .460 S&W 500 S&W 35 Remington and the list goes on...maybe they got name envy? |
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Posted: 7/26/2006 9:20:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Someone else did a round like this. Somthing like a 264Win brass trimed to length & seat a 451 bullet. It will come to me at some point. Ron
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Posted: 7/26/2006 9:55:44 AM EDT
[#7]
I am not really interested in this new cartridge, but maybe Bushmaster will
come out with a .45 ACP barrelled upper as well. My next AR is definately going to be in .45 ACP, and I would love to buy a Bushy upper instead of an Olympic. |
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Posted: 7/26/2006 12:24:31 PM EDT
[#8]
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Pure and simple. My guess is they want it all for themselves. I think Tony is dead on with what they will load it with. The twist is just too freaking slow to load big bullets with. You know like a 450 grain solid at like 1550 fps. Or a 400 grainer at 1700ish. |
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Posted: 7/26/2006 2:17:39 PM EDT
[#9]
The round is the new .45 Bushmaster. Very cool. Cant wait to hear more about this new big boy on the site.
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Posted: 7/26/2006 2:39:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Doesn't make much sense to me , since the 458 SOCOM , 499 LW and the 50 beowulf
already exist with a limited following . 
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Posted: 7/26/2006 3:21:33 PM EDT
[#11]
It sorta looks like a rimless version of the .45/70.
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Posted: 7/26/2006 6:40:06 PM EDT
[#12]
It is their version of the .45 Professional from Tim LeGendre of LeMag. Based on 284 Win brass cut off at 1.77 and fitted with a .45 ACP bullet. There will be a challenge in getting the long case to negotiate the transition from the mag to the chamber, we already encountered that with the 10mm Auto Mag. Then there is the challenge that a lot of pistol bullets cannot be pushed past a certain point before they have exceeded their useful velocity envelope. With the bullets for the 460 S&W it should make a very interesting combination. I am interested to hear the range results.
Note that we looked at this design when we developed the SOCOM but that the requirements that were put forth stated heaviest possible bullet and subsonic loads. For that reason, we eschewed this design as the 45 ACP bullets are limited typically to about 300 gr in jacketed form. Yes, we are aware of heavier versions, but they are not as common place as the heavier bullets in .458. Thus our decision to go with .458. Best of luck to both Bushmaster and Hornady and welcome to the big bore club! |
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Posted: 7/27/2006 12:01:31 AM EDT
[#13]
We also cannot forget that there are some bullets for the 45 Colt that might work. I have done extensive testing with heavy bullets designed for the 45 ACP/45 Colt in my 460 Rowland conversion. The Rowland has its own set of headaches with heavy bullets and the limited case, but I did find many that might be suitable for this cartridge. The first one to come to mind is the Nosler partition. I think it is a 250 or 260 grainer (it's late and I am a bit fuzzy). I also think that the various jacketed flat points (.451 230 grain FMJ) might be interesting. They should hold together, and hit with authority. Many of these bullets are suitable for the 454 Casull, and could possibly work.
We don't really need a lot of redesigned bullets for the 460 S&W, as most of the current crop of properly designed 454 bullets have been used pretty successfully on assorted game, and the 460 does not really have that much more gitty up than a comparable 454 firearm with similar bullet weight. Just a WAG based on the limited info on this new cartridge, it appears to me that it is gonna lean towards velocity, whereas the 458 Socom is better suited to heavier weight. Where have we seen this debate before? Craig |
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Posted: 7/27/2006 7:45:56 AM EDT
[#14]
They are going to have side loading problems in that mag as well, if they plan to use standard GI mags. When you design a magazine, you can either double stack the rounds or single stack them. When you try and stack-and-a-half them, the rounds side load the magazine walls terribly and swell the magazine. That is not good in the mag well design of the AR-15. Full magazines are most likely going to swell up and drag in the magazine well.
Marty did his homework on the .458 SOCOM. The design is better then the rest, and will be for a long time. Tony |
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Posted: 7/28/2006 12:09:12 AM EDT
[#15]
It looks like flop to me. Magazine stacking and feeding aside, I don't think the twist rate will be enough for some 300 grain bullets and certainly not anything heavier (of conventional design) and it headspaces on the case mouth. The velocities quoted for the 45 Pro are on the verge of being unbelievable.
With an estimated capacity or 60 grains of water and a maximum pressure at 41.5k psi (to make bolt thrust roughly equal) Ouickload gives it a maximum 25-50fps over the 458 SOCOM with some 300 grain bullets. Of course QL isn't perfect and these calculations are based on estimates of case capacity and seating depth slanted to give the .45 BM maximum advantage. I'm fairly satisfied the .458's greater effective case capacity mostly offsets the .45 BM's higher pressure potential. My question is, what are they smoking over there at Bushmaster? If they wanted a big bore round that they did have to pay somebody for, how hard is it to come up with a better one? Neck down the .50 BW or .499 LW case for .429, .451 or .475 with a shape close to that of the .458 SOCOM and use a barrel with a proper twist rate. You get a round that should feeds well and all the work has been done for you. I guess I should give them credit for not going that route. I wonder if they are paying Mr. LeGendre. Good luck getting it to work without him. David |
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Posted: 7/28/2006 5:06:11 AM EDT
[#16]
I agree. Well I agree with a lot you said but especially the velocities. I saw on Jeff coopers website when he was talking about it they said a 230 grain at 3000fps. That just doesn't seem possible to me. Unless you just go crazy with pressure I guess. The socom can do a 250 at 2300fps for comparison. At thats a really hot load from what I understand. I wouldn't be interested in anything that "small" anyway. I'm not saying its going to flop. But, their twist rate is interesting to say the least. Not to mention what has been said about magazine swells. They had their 308 debacle. Perhaps if this doesn't pan out they should stick with the 223/556.
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Posted: 7/28/2006 5:07:37 AM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 7/28/2006 10:20:12 AM EDT
[#18]
I like the "classic" lines on the gun. I do not know enough to pronounce a death sentence on the engineering. I think that it has several marketing thing going for it regardless (even if it is an inferior product). Time will tell, but till then it is probably only helping out the big bore nitch.
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Posted: 7/28/2006 12:14:27 PM EDT
[#19]
It does and if they are ever buil, they will sell some based on it. David |
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Posted: 7/28/2006 12:41:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Ive got a call into someone at hornady, Im curious to see if hornady is loading the ammo for this round or if they merely just helped in the deleloping stage, I would guess hornady is loading it...but geez...if thats the case, im gonna really let my point of contact here it...for not loading other rounds.... |
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Posted: 7/28/2006 5:28:31 PM EDT
[#21]
As Marty said, "Best of luck to both Bushmaster and Hornady and welcome to the big bore club!"
Personally, I went with the .50 Beowulf. I realize the advantages of the .458 SOCOM, and it was the LW offering that first attracted my interest in big bore ARs. What makes an AR big bore? Every one seems to consider Bushmaster's offering to be in that category. Would a .41 or .40 be a big bore? What about .358? Perhaps we need some new magazines. They were developed for the 6.8 and the 6.5, so why not for some new big bore cartridges. I have made up dummy cartridges by running .45 Win mag cases into my .41 Avenger dies. If the brass were just a bit longer, this would be an interesting cartridge in the AR platform, provided proper magazines were available. Well, as I said, best of luck to Bushmaster. Economics dictates that I have to be satisfied with my .50 Beowulf. So far, it has been a fun ride. |
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Posted: 7/28/2006 5:41:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Im curious to see the hornady ammo, I think it was Tony that said they will use the 460 S&W bullet, that should provide for some interesting possiblities. |
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Posted: 7/31/2006 10:41:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Grendelbane, In the AR world, I guess you could argue everything above 5.56 is big bore, or at least bigger bore. I have heard of the 308 referred to as a big bore AR. Dunno about that one. In handguns, big bore usually starts at .40 caliber. In african hunting, I think big bore is usally considerd also at 40 caliber, but the 375 is usually minimum for dangerous game. I guess you could argue that to be a working big bore definition. Back to the AR's, IMHO I would say that the .40 floor is about right. If you take .358, that would put the 9mm (.355) pretty close to the definition, but most would say that a 9mm is not big bore. Of course the 45 ACP is only slightly smaller than the 458. But I would call that big bore. As to the Bushmaster, it is certainly big bore. Anything that looks, talks and walks like a 45-70 is big. I think that Tony and Marty have certainly wrung out many of the 40 and 45 caliber ideas. One of the often overlooked things about the 458 is the simplicity of magazines. Any old have decent 556 will work. I guess if you have the money, and the time, anything is feasible. For us AR shooters, it is all good. The more folks doing more things with different calibers will count for something the next time we are staring an AWB in the face. Craig |
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Posted: 7/31/2006 2:58:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Bearbait1
hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Regardless of who makes what, its another big bore on the block to further interest in 1) the AR platform, 2) hunting (as bushies website makes referrence to a hog gun) and 3) shooting sports in general. Hopefully it will draw other hunters to the AR platform like Randy Anderson, Byron South, Todd Woodall etc have done with Predator Hunting. So many more hunters are using AR's for stuff out in the field, and even those pros say, 5-8 years ago, it was not the case. AR's are becoming so accurate out of the box, the prairie dog/target shooter is taking an interest, Bushies release of a dedicated Predator gun ON TOP of their already establish line of varmiter rigs futheres this yet again. Im eagerly awaiting info on the new .45bushmaster round. Hopefully my Hornady contact will check his damn email soon, when I called, he said he was going to Co for some reloading thing near Greely. |
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Posted: 8/4/2006 2:45:22 AM EDT
[#25]
I also pulled out my .45 Win Mag to see the similarities. Looks shorter than the 45 Bushmaster so it will be interesting to see what specs thay come out with. My Beowulf is a pure blast to shoot and if I find a 45 upper, my thought was to ream it out for the 45 mag caliber.
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Posted: 8/8/2006 11:45:33 AM EDT
[#26]
I wonder is most of this isn't just trademark law crap?
Maybe a generic CQB cartridge is in order? One without trademark or copyright encumbering it or its name? On a slightly different note, .45 Winmag rounds will fit into an M2 carbine mag .... .45winmag uppers with .30 carbine magazines? |
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Posted: 8/8/2006 6:02:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Looked at the m1 mags with 44 automag, 45 win mag and 357 automag. Decided to try the 357 to avoid the straight walled feeding issues. With the 357 in the m1 mag, you can only use the pistol bullets or the shortest rifle bullets, so i am going to give it a try using the AR mag. We will see when the barrel comes in. (Tony?)
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Posted: 8/11/2006 2:38:25 AM EDT
[#28]
On a slightly different note, .45 Winmag rounds will fit into an M2 carbine mag .... .45winmag uppers with .30 carbine magazines?
Now this is starting to get interesting! |
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Posted: 8/12/2006 8:12:09 AM EDT
[#29]
from Bushmaster ad : Rifling = 1 in 45 inches
 Is that right? I was just reading a thread about making a .410 upper on an AR ( AR-10 perhaps..) platform. And when I saw 1 in 45, I was just thinking they should just make it smoothbore, or put a rifled choke at the end of the barrel.... Hey, why not load the case with three .45 cal lead balls and have a modified buckshot round.... ( wish I had a job where I could make interesting prototypes  )
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Posted: 8/14/2006 1:17:39 PM EDT
[#30]
From : <[email protected]>
Sent : Monday, August 14, 2006 9:58 AM To : txgp17 Subject : RE: 3.Product Availability The parent case is a .284 Winchester. A Tech Sheet is attached. Thank you, Jim Eden Technical Support Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC Office: 1-800-883-6229 ext. 277 Fax: 207-892-8068 Attachment : 45BushmasterTS.pdf (0.16 MB) |
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Posted: 8/14/2006 1:21:04 PM EDT
[#31]
so wheres the tech sheet
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