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Posted: 4/5/2006 7:51:30 AM EDT
[#1]
Go with the RRA. Ther is NO ADVANTAGE to the machined billet aluminum lower. Forged lowers start out life as a billet of aluminum and are then forged (pressed under high temperature) into the general shape of a lower receiver. Here is a very small pic from the DSArms website, see the lower on the far right:  Forging the billet of aluminum compresses the metal's microscopic grain structure, improving the metallurgy of the aluminum. Let me repeat again, there is absolutely no benefit to a machined billet lower. You're getting a product with inferior metallurgy. |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 9:32:45 AM EDT
[#2]
+1
forged will be superior to a simply machined billet. |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 10:46:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for clarifying guys
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Posted: 4/5/2006 1:02:11 PM EDT
[#4]
....and just how does a billet of aluminum become a billet? They cut a chunk of raw aluminum out of the hillside? They pour molten aluminum into a block mold? Nope, it's often extruded or forged, just like the blocks of aluminum that are "forged" into a raw shape that is them machined into a finished lower.
If the Sun Devil starts life as a forged billet, as has been reported, then the metallurgical differences are negligible, everything else is cosmetic. Hell, there are still thousands of CAST lowers that are still running just fine. And yes, the Sun Devil lowers use all standard parts. Anything that will fit a "cast" or "forged" standard lower will fit a Sun Devil lower. I have 2, never had a problem. 1 has had about 4k rounds in it, the other about 1.5k. Tom 
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Posted: 4/5/2006 1:38:23 PM EDT
[#5]
+1 to what Banzai said. I have a SunDevil and the fit and finish is better than any of the regular forged lowers that I have now or have owned previously.
TS |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 2:29:06 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm with JoshNC on this one.
The Sun Devil lowers are made of 6061-T6 billet and most forged lowers are made of the Mil-Spec 7075-T6. The tensile strength, yield strength and hardness of 6061-T6 is quite a bit lower that of 7075-T6, see chart below. 7075 vs 6061 Comparison Chart: Alloy/Tensile Strength/Yield Strength/Brinell Hardness 6061-T6/45,000 PSI/40,000 PSI/95 7075-T6/83,000 PSI/73,000 PSI/150 IMHO, with the Sun Devil lower you might be getting a better looking lower but it's also made of lower quality aluminum. If the Sun Devil lowers were about $50 each then I might see their worth but at this time a $99 Stag/CMT lower is a better product for a lower price. Hey, it's your money so buy what you want but I wouldn't pay more for less... |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 2:38:46 PM EDT
[#7]
I thought I read somewhere that the Sun Devil lowers now used the 7075-T6. Can anyone verify what they are using in current production lowers?
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Posted: 4/5/2006 2:54:52 PM EDT
[#8]
I believe you're thinking of SOCOM lowers. They were made with 6061-T6 and then I believe they switched to 7075-T6 shortly before they went under. BTW, I know that Sun Devil does in fact use 6061-T6 because I called them up and asked about it not too long ago. The guy I talked too said that 7075-T6 was to costly for them to use at this time and there are currently no plans to use 7075-T6 in the forseeable future. The 6061-T6 will work okay for AR15 lowers but as I mentioned before at their current price point of about $150 I don't see them as good buy over a $99 Stag/CMT lower made with better material. |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 12:30:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Price point in my area at local shows for RRA is $129(common), LAR $99(uncommon), Stag $129(hard to find), and Sun Devils for $139(uncommon). I have at least one of each, and to be honest, they're all form/fit/function interchangeable.
Just because 7075-T6 has a higher tensile strength does not make 6061-T6 UNsuitable. That's like saying the red fire engines in my town are redder than the red fire engines in your town, and because ours are redder, yours are no good. And are you really, honestly, truly gonna subject your rifle to true soldiering and field conditions? Really? Go watch Red Dawn or Dawn of the Dead again, please. Regardless, there are still TONS of the dreaded piece of shit CAST lowers that have seen plenty of use and abuse and stand up just as well as any forged unit. The lower reciever is just NOT a wear item. I personally have a cast DPMS that is over 10 years old that is my go to DCM gun, haven't done anyting to it in years other than clean the Jewell trigger in it, and it's been abused on the firing line endlessly, including several drops to the concrete from cleaning cradles. Take a licking and still keeps on ticking and keeping me in the Master scores. Bottom line, spend you money on the product that YOU want, for your reasons, not ours. Tom
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Posted: 4/6/2006 12:43:59 PM EDT
[#10]
All due respect, that is not a very good analogy. Color is an outward superficial property. Tensile strength is a metallurgic property inherent to the type of aluminum being used for the lower. As to whether one will subject their lower to abuse, I feel that is irrelevant. Why buy a lower made of an inferior alloy when you can have one from a milspec forging? I won't buy a polymer or cast lower for the same reason.
I completely agree, but do so with full knowledge of what you are buying. |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Billet receivers will definitely be better than any cast receiver. I'd rather have a CMT style cut. They're consistently the best quality receivers over LMT or LAR.
The Sun Devil receivers are nice though. The machining is superb and cosmetically better than any LMT or LAR cut. |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 1:43:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Banzai,
Red firetrucks, WTF???  We aren't talking about cosmetic differences here, if you can't understand that then there's nothing more to be said. Also, just where did anyone on this thread say that 6061-T6 was unsuitable to use for lowers?  All we are saying is that while the Sun Devil may look cosmetically better you are in fact paying more for a receiver made of lower quality aluminum. Even if the price was the same you're still getting a lower quality product for the money. We just posted the facts now you can decide for yourself if you want to pay more for less. Personally I don't care what lower you buy. Hell, get 10 more Sun Devil lowers if you want.... 
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Posted: 4/6/2006 1:49:20 PM EDT
[#13]
While that may be true, why in the flying, flipping, flaming hell would I want to pay MORE money for a lower with LOWER tensile strength (hey, that was redundant  ), regardless of it being "un-UNsuitable"?
Sounds like somebody is getting defensive over their lower
I think I'll call DPMS and see if I can pay $150 for one of their cast lowers... Since they're "good enough" and all that. Then I could feel good about having paid more for my lower than one of you "Red Dawn" wanna-be's and your plain, ordinary forged lowers.  |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 2:17:48 PM EDT
[#14]
I have a sun devil and it is pretty scnazzy.....but then again I only have 15 posts
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Posted: 4/6/2006 2:43:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Why would you think stress under expected usage would be irrelevant? With this kind of logic we should all be using uber chrome molly steel lowers, after all it has higher tensile strength. Most of the practical difference of the two lowers mentioned are cosmetic. A machined part looks different than a forging. 6061 is easier to anodize and take a sealant/die when compared to 7075. 7075 does have some downsides too. It extra tensile strength comes from alloying zinc so it's heavier per volume and has a lower melting temp. Now if you ever want to repair either of these lowers you will have a hell of a time welding 7075 because of a little thing called stress corrosion cracking but 6061 welds beautifully and has no problems with SCC. |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 10:43:38 PM EDT
[#16]
the way I always understood it is that with the higher strength there is more of a tendency to be brittle, and the softer alloys are more flexible....
of the ol intronet - if this means anything to anyone www.efunda.com 7075 Density (×1000 kg/m3) 2.8 Poisson's Ratio 0.33 Elastic Modulus (GPa) 70-80 Tensile Strength (Mpa) 220 Yield Strength (Mpa) 95 Elongation (%) 17 Reduction in Area (%) Hardness (HB500) 60 Shear Strength (MPa) 150 Fatigue Strength (MPa) 160 6061 Density (×1000 kg/m3) 2.7 Poisson's Ratio 0.33 Elastic Modulus (GPa) 70-80 Tensile Strength (Mpa) 115 Yield Strength (Mpa) 48 Elongation (%) 25 Reduction in Area (%) Hardness (HB500) 30 Shear Strength (MPa) 83 Fatigue Strength (MPa) 62 |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 10:55:53 PM EDT
[#17]
RRA all the way
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Posted: 4/6/2006 11:03:45 PM EDT
[#18]
... As a mechanical engineer, I say the billet - no question
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Posted: 4/9/2006 7:13:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Winston, please elaborate. How could unforged billet be superior to a forging? I am also an engineer, so get technical if you don't mind. Thanks! |
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Posted: 4/9/2006 7:31:43 PM EDT
[#20]
+1 TS 
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:35:41 PM EDT
[#21]
bump
TS
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Posted: 5/10/2006 7:48:26 AM EDT
[#22]
I am debating which lower to go with for my next build as well. I ruled out Stag b/c I do not like the rollmark. I like the Superior Arms lower I used with my last build b/c I love the pictogram but they have raised their prices $27 since my last order. So I am looking at with a RRA or Sun Devil
The billet/forge debate didn't really enter the picture for me till now as I liked them for the gator grip and rumored fit and finish. I would like to hear from more Sun Devil owners |
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Posted: 5/10/2006 8:12:52 AM EDT
[#23]
I have a Sun Devil lower, as well as a Colt. The fit and finish on the Sun Devil is much better than the Colt. If you want the Sun Devil, I'd say go for it. I don't think you'll be disappointed. I would post pics, but don't have any (yet). Will try to get some up when I get home...
Good luck with your build, I can't wait to see how it turns out! |
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Posted: 5/10/2006 11:01:58 AM EDT
[#24]
I have been real impressed with the quality of my Sun Devil Lower!
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Posted: 5/10/2006 11:10:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Steve: That depends. As Sun Devil lowers are machined out of billet 6061 it is far inferior to a 7075 milspec forging. |
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Posted: 5/10/2006 2:56:19 PM EDT
[#26]
If you're buying a billet lower, you're paying for the attention to detail. A billet lower will look like a work of art and never have any issues, but a forging is stronger.
However, a point that hasn't been brought up yet. When you machine certain areas (pin holes, fire control group valley, buffer tube opening, etc.), it loses alot of it's strength in those areas. But just like a billet receiver, those strength losses are going to be negligible. Strength between the two (even when it's made from 6061) is going to be a non issue. I'd go with the RRA as I'm not one to pay extra for looks alone. |
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Posted: 5/10/2006 5:44:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks you have been allot of help  
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Posted: 5/10/2006 6:58:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Sun Devil.
TS |
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Posted: 5/17/2006 9:04:16 AM EDT
[#29]
Does anyone know who has Sun Devils in stock?
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Posted: 5/17/2006 11:25:43 AM EDT
[#30]
I believe Teknic & Stickman @ Ranier Arms have them. That's where I bought mine.
TS |
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Posted: 5/17/2006 6:41:05 PM EDT
[#31]
I don't know that I saw anyone mention the price of each. How much more does the Sun Devil cost?
John |
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Posted: 6/22/2006 3:59:16 PM EDT
[#32]
My SunDevil pistol lower doesn't look like a work of art. Not ugly by any means, but it's machines, with engraved logo. I think forgings look just as good.
FWIW, mines from their first production run, is very tight to mispec uppers (VERY TIGHT!). DPMS LPK fit perfectly, and was $99 from my local FFL. Local FFL didn't have any and after I called Sun Devil (on a Sunday no less) they ran one over for me. Great service. |
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Posted: 6/23/2006 4:57:13 AM EDT
[#33]
I dont like MOST Roll markings pony,Lion,Panther,Snake,Deer,ETC it seems that most of the lowers now are GOOD TO GO I would get the cheapest out of the Better bunch out of your pick I would go RRA |
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Posted: 6/23/2006 5:54:19 AM EDT
[#34]
I found one by dumb luck from an in state vendor. Probably will be a while before I have the $ to build it into anything (I'm thinking 9mm sbr). Wanted to grab one while I had the chance!
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