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Posted: 9/5/2002 8:55:32 AM EDT
Photos post the attack today on Karzai.
 Note the 10 inch barrel, cut carrying handle back up iron sight, and SOCOM stock.  Seems like the short barrelled M4's work fine. More available at www.yahoo.com JAW |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 2:47:51 PM EDT
[#1]
That is not a cut carrying handle. Its a flattop Colt Enhanced Commando fitted with one of these:
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/scopes/yhm-643k.asp Although perhaps it could be a older CAR or even a M4A1 lower temporarily wearing a 11.5in upper. Perhaps a Bushmaster? |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 2:52:40 PM EDT
[#2]
There was a photo in a gun rag in a article about Blackwater's School last year of a Navy SEAL using an M4 that very clearly had a chopped carry handle with only the rear sight remaining.
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Posted: 9/5/2002 2:52:54 PM EDT
[#3]
I think it probably is a cut carry handle- Here is a pic of another operator at the same scene:
 I believe it is a M4A1 lower with 10.5" upper. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 3:19:48 PM EDT
[#4]
I posted the first pic above and verified what it is of with several credible sources.
The weapon features an upper built for Crane NSW by a vendor. The upper has its own NSN number. The receiver is M4 spec, with M4 feed ramps and a flat top, but it is not a Colt. The barrel is from Diemaco (Canadian) and is hammer forged, chrome-lined and reportedly 10 inches. The rear back up iron sight is a standard detachable carrying handle, cut and nicely finished by the vendor. The rail system is a RIS from KAC without the rail covers and the Aimpoint mount is a KAC straight mount. The stock is the SOCOM M4 stock. JAW |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 4:02:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Notice the SIG, single point sling, and yes, cut carrying handle in the second pic above.
No optic though. The SIG should be a clue. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 4:09:19 PM EDT
[#6]
US Navy. BTW; is the guy in the second pic wounded? It looks like he has a bandaged wound on his left chest and perhaps tied his shirt around his head as an improvised bandage? Or has he just been in country to long and goes on missions half dressed? PPS... Starting to notice the "operators" are getting pretty chubby. They are eating to well and not getting enough PT. I will give them the benifit of the doubt and assume the mission tempo is to fast for regular PT. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 4:26:07 PM EDT
[#7]
It's a cut carrying handle done by Colt. When I get settled from my move I'll post some close up photos of the New Colt M4A4 I have. It's basically a Colt M4 carbine with some modified Knight's parts, HBAR 1/7 barrel and a custom cut carry handle.
I'll post ASAP( about a week) |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 4:32:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Colt-653,
I believe you, no doubt with respect to your M4A4. However, my source(s) seem to think the photo above is of a different animal. Given the Diemaco barrel, I tend to agree with them, but see no reason why cut carrying handles from Colt don't exist as part of other configurations, as the idea has been around for a while (I've had one for a couple years that I did myself). What is the barrel length on your M4A4? What are the modified KAC parts? Sounds like an interesting beast. JAW |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 4:42:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Yeah, I think you may be right. He got dinged. Probably a fragmentation wound to the chest. There is also blood on his left wrist.
They cannot do PT like they would in garrison, there simply would not be the time or the secure grounds available to work out like they normally would. That's why they work out so hard in garrison, so they have muscle and stamina to lose when they get deployed. Combat swimmers, BTW, have a tendancy to get barrel chested the more they swim/SCUBA/etc. It is something that has been noted in a few different sources regarding both SEALs and Army Special Forces SCUBA team members. You may also wish to note that the likely SEAL (DEVGROUP?) operator is on the short side. To maintain the level of pure strength needed in that sort of outfit, he'd tend to be built like a fireplug just to have enough muscle mass. Some photos of guys in the original SEAL Team Six and Red Cell units showed some HUGE guys. Marcinko claimed that he required all his guys to be able to bench something like 400 pounds in those early days. You'd be pretty huge to manage that. But the carbohydrate diet they would probably adopt in Afghanistan would tend to put weight on you if you weren't running it off daily. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 4:49:20 PM EDT
[#10]
From my sources the CQB SOPMOD 10.5" and 11.5" barrels are from Diemaco, just like you state. Colt has also made some demo models bassed on the 733 enchanced carbine.
I should clear something up, the Colt M4A4 I have is a limited issued demo item and was issued as a PIP kit for updating Milspec lowers. It's a Colt M4 marked flat-top upper with feed cuts, a 16" 1/7 HBAR ,Knight's RAS, ARMS Modified full length #36-MOD rail, and a Colt/C-More made cut carryhandle rear sight. The kit also included the New Colt M4 4- position stock. I know the kit is also available with the standard Colt 14.5" light weight M4 and HBAR barrels. Not sure when Colt will release it for LE/Civilian sales. Might want to check with www.sawlesales.com for availability. The uppers were made as demos for the SOPMOD II program and a few were released to private parties/companies. I'll try and post some pictures as soon as possible. As far as I know only NSW has made purchases of the CQB model. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 5:12:39 PM EDT
[#11]
A couple questions.
Why is cutting down the carry handle better than the removible sight tower for a regular flattop like Bushmaster sells? And why the ten or eleven inch barrels? Are they really .223? Isn't this the same group of people who complained that 5.56 from carbines performed badly? Or were the stories from Mogidishu not true? |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 5:15:21 PM EDT
[#12]
What I find more perplexing than the lack of shirt is the lack of soft body armor.
That is my understanding as well. Thanks for the info. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 5:26:52 PM EDT
[#13]
The cut carrying handle isn't a cut A2 receiver, but a cut M4 detachable carrying handle mounted on a regular railed receiver.
Why better? Dunno for sure but a couple of insights: 1) Standard thumbscrew removal/installation vs. allen head screw or similar. 2) Availability - this practice started before the advent of any of the current folding BUIS. A cut carrying handle was the first BUIS for the M4. 3) Ruggedness - a portion of the front of the carrying handle is retained which protects the more fragile, adjustable part. The Bushie variant doesn't have this. The Mark Brown CQB mount does, but adds a raised rail and is semi-permanent (see #1 above). The DPMS sight looks like a decent choice, but WHY NOT a cut carrying handle? I am sure there are lots in inventory out there. I have heard about this practice for a long time but seen only one pic on a personal gun of an operator (the same Blackwater pic referenced above). Last year I saw a picture of an NSW gun with a roughly hack-sawed carrying handle out of the Balkans. The above pics are the first I have seen of something that appears to be either a standard practice or "issue" item. HTH, JAW |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 5:51:37 PM EDT
[#14]
The wounded Army SF operator's side arm is a HK USP .45 cal.
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:14:58 PM EDT
[#15]
I beg to differ. I think it is a SIG. Further, first hand intel indicates the upper receiver on his weapon isn't in service with the Army. JAW |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:17:25 PM EDT
[#16]
I think the chest wound/dressing is just the light colored single point sling.
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:18:03 PM EDT
[#17]
looks like a colt commando with 10.5"barrel KAC rail system w/verical foregrip.Also 40mm cqb style scope&custom made butstock.2nd operator same pic looks like M4 w/KAC rail & cqb scope.3RD operator M4 KAC rail vertical fore grip Sig 226 &fragmentation grenade.Probably seal team members all the weapons are samebasic configuration;short barrel,large diameter shortbodied scope tube,same rail system&two out of three have standard colapsable stock.
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:20:31 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:25:08 PM EDT
[#19]
The stocks are the SOCOM stock developed by Crane NSWC. This is confirmed.
The optics are Aimpoint Comp M-XD's, possibly M2's (reportedly *very* few M2's are in service, even with these types). The mount for the Aimpoint is a KAC straight mount. This is confirmed. Thanks for IDing the fragmentation grenade, my guess too, but I was wondering. JAW |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:50:48 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 9/5/2002 6:53:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Navy vs. Army? Who cares? He's wearing Dockers!
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Posted: 9/5/2002 7:02:53 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 9/5/2002 7:12:55 PM EDT
[#23]
I love these various conflicting observations.
Jack |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 7:17:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Sine there are a lot of in-the-know types posting here let me ask a question or tow- Are these uppers made by KAC? I know KAC has used Diemaco barrels on some uppers before..and I think Havoc mentioned working on a short AR project at Knight's..
Also- Do you know anything about a new metal vertical grip being issued? Someone on one of these boards mentioned a conversation with some SEALs.. the discussed the 10.5" upper and a new metal fwd. grip. Finally.. Has a decision been made yet re: the PMOD upper for the SOPMOD Block II? Thanks in advance.. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 7:21:44 PM EDT
[#25]
The PMOD hasn't been finshed for posting yet.
jack |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 7:37:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Jeez, another style AR/M16 to build??!! Will it ever stop??!! ;)
And btw, that's a SIG 226, too long to be a M11. Definitely not an HK. |
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Posted: 9/5/2002 9:07:00 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 9/5/2002 9:21:31 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm sorry, but if you're talking about Delta(CAG), you are wrong. The pistol of choice in Delta is customized 1911's. The guys in the photo are indeed from NSW's Tier One unit. |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 12:06:11 AM EDT
[#29]
One of our newer members, M24Expert, posted this on the original thread in the General Discussion board.
So, does Military Manufacturing Corp. of Nevada ring any bells with anyone else here? |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 12:30:49 AM EDT
[#30]
wrong.... wrong ......wrong again........
Have the best day ever! |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 8:22:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Hmmmm, I notice all the SOCOM Enhanced M4 stocks are being run collapsed or semi-collapsed, even though no body armor is apparent. Fighting from an iso stance I guess.
I also notice that they all seem to have rubberbands around them as well. Anybody care to guess what purpose that serves? |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 9:06:27 AM EDT
[#32]
My guess on the rubber band is one of two things.
1) a tactile queue that the operator has the right cheek weld. 2) keep something attached to the stock like a field dressing on the off side. Anyone else care to hazard a guess? |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 12:38:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Holding on a individual prefrence homemade cheek pad? Even though commercial ones exist they may not be "right"-and these guys tend to be picky. |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 1:18:11 PM EDT
[#34]
I'd hazard a guess that the rubber bands (if thats what they are, they could be tye wraps) are to keep the latching lever from rattling or keeping some tension on the lever. Just a WAG.
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Posted: 9/6/2002 1:29:53 PM EDT
[#35]
The stock is like the one in the excellent pic Ahab posted. It has an expanded cheek area. I don't think the band is holding on a cheek pad. I really have no idea what it is for.
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Posted: 9/6/2002 1:39:06 PM EDT
[#36]
The rubber bands are for field dressings.
Since it doesn't violate OpSec, I can tell you that the photos are of NSW AKA SEALs. The handgun in the Kydex holster is one of the newer Sig P226's with Hogue rubber grips and blackened Stainless slide. The grenade looks like one of the light weight plastic grenades made by Glock in Austria, and as far as I know only NSW has purchased them. FYI CAG uses the 1911 reworked by various smiths( Inhouse and by some of the better known smiths) I've worked with a few that use the Glock 17/19, 21 and the Sig 220 series as well, so trying to identify a operator by his sidearm is not a good means of identification. It's up to the operator to determine what they are going to carry, often it's based on the mission. I doubt the uppers in the photo are made by M2 Corp. NSW likes to build their toys up at Crane using off the shelf parts. Only way to know for sure is for some one to contact M2 or Crane and get the low down. |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 2:11:09 PM EDT
[#37]
The holster is defiantly not Kydex, as it has a reinforced mouth. It's probably a Kramer Vertical Scabbard or less likely a Heinie/Alessi DOJ.
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Posted: 9/6/2002 2:48:44 PM EDT
[#38]
The gentleman who is wounded is most likely NSW. But that doesn't mean they all are.
Because SOCOM exists now, nothing is truly exclusive to any particular SF unit. Each has its own habits though. If Delta has a priority mission, and they like the NSW's short ARs for it, and they dont have any of their own, they can ask for and get them. That sort of cooperation was what the SOCOM headquarters orginaization was created for. None of the people in these photos may be the men who actually shot the attackers. And there is one guy you can glimps in one view wearing bluejeans that is possibly CIA. |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 3:03:00 PM EDT
[#39]
I stand corrected it's a Sig. |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 3:58:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Its only a "neener neener" response in your deluded mind because you are looking to pick a fight over some stupid interservice rivalry. Get a Grip. FACT is that ARMY SF be it Delta or some other detachment was given the job of bodyguarding Karzai. But in Kandahar, NSW and CIA are looking for badguys in that province AND advising the Afghan security forces there. As a result members of ALL THREE were present at the time of the shooting. And that is a normal state of affairs in Afghanistan, for the three to be around in mixed groups working togeather. Save the intersevice BS for the Army/Navy football game... |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 4:06:29 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=139320
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Posted: 9/6/2002 4:07:06 PM EDT
[#42]
ArmdLbrl,
You are right, it is not worth arguing about. I apologize for the abrasive post. Different sources have different info. Who knows? JAW |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 4:15:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Its alright. Nothing broken.. |
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Posted: 9/6/2002 7:39:16 PM EDT
[#44]
Very interesting thread here - I liked reading it a lot - now for the real question - who the hell does the bare chested fella in picture #3 think he's talking to? Just kidding but it kinda looks like he's talking to the SUV
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Posted: 9/6/2002 8:34:58 PM EDT
[#45]
I just wanted to chime in and say that a blown up photo of the SF / Delta soldier appeared on the cover of the NY Post yesterday (Friday, 9/6), and the rear sight is very clearly a cut M4 detachable carry handle mounted on a regular railed receiver.
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Posted: 9/9/2002 6:40:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Colt-653:
The grenade sure doesn't LOOK like the one from Glock... compare the shell of the Glock grenade in this pic (smooth) to the one on the operator's belt (bumpy/pineapple-type).  |
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Posted: 9/9/2002 3:04:08 PM EDT
[#47]
No it doesn't look like the Glock grenade above, but not because its bumpy. I cant see any bumps on the SEAL's grenade at normal resolution. But the Glock grenade looks to be more cylindrical in shape |
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Posted: 9/9/2002 3:15:42 PM EDT
[#48]
Well this blows all bets.. these guyswww.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=142680&page=2#bottom beleve that these are all "civilian contractors".
If true then you cant tell anything about them from their weapons. |
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Posted: 9/9/2002 8:46:47 PM EDT
[#49]
The grenade in the photo is made by Glock it's either a model 85 or 86. Here's a link for info on the grenade:
http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/currentfrag/currentfrag.htm Like I said earlier, as far as I know only NSW is purchasing them( That doesn't mean others haven't or that they don't have access to them) Few people here realize that current and former memembers of the SF community are often employed via private contractors for specific jobs. It's like the "paid jobs" police officers do on their days off. It's been done this way since the Vietnam conflict. Central America and the Middle East are just 2 of many examples of the use of "private" contractors. Needless to say we should all be proud of those out there protecting us from those that would do us harm, and not arguing about who or what branch of the military they represent. |
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Posted: 9/10/2002 4:52:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Correct...It is a Horsehide Kramer "Verticle Belt Scabbard". I own several and the Navy bought a bunch around 1995. |
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