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Posted: 12/17/2010 10:51:44 AM EDT
[#1]
nope its BLING BLING unless your in Afghanistan under sever conditions you don't need it ,my bolt form a gun i built in the mid 90's got 10 k on it at least and works fine with a spritz of CLP
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Posted: 12/17/2010 10:59:00 AM EDT
[#2]
They will work better under extreme conditions than standard bolt carriers when a quality lube is either scarce or unobtainable. Under most circumstances I do not think you would notice much of a difference.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:19:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Not necessary or needed. There are thousands of rifles being used in harsh environments everyday.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:33:50 AM EDT
[#4]
I dunno you might need one for the harsh enviroment of your gunsafe to the range
 Seriously you probably don't need it, but get one if you want because this is america 
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:41:31 AM EDT
[#5]
makes it easier to clean especially with a supressor. but not needed for function. if you got the money then go for it.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:49:11 AM EDT
[#6]
<This is a tech forum, not GD. Don't post stupid crap like that again. - Z>
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:51:42 AM EDT
[#7]
I've never had a blinged out BCG, but I can tell you as a vet of deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq or Iraqistan as I enjoy collectively referring to those two flaming piles that if you're already over there, than the U.S Gov. is going to make sure you have enough CLP. I love how company's are making these great innovations but they love to play on the fears of operators that without their extremely overpriced parts your weapon is going to have a catastrophic malfunction. For the majority of shooters, is it worth hundreds of dollars for a bolt carrier when they are only shooting on the weekends. I think not. As someone who it might matter too I still wouldnt buy into a new tech very quickly because it probably hasn't undergone the in depth field tests that the parts we already rely on have.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:52:29 AM EDT
[#8]
<Off-topic comment removed - Z>
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Posted: 12/17/2010 11:55:29 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm not sure I can envision a scenario, SHTF, EOTWAWKI or other, where you are going be firing thousands upon thousands of rounds at a time without the ability to squirt a drop or two of quality lube in the ejection port.
Its been shown that cleaning is not all that important to keep a gun running, so for some (like me) ease of cleaning is a moot point. If you have the money to blow, or if it helps you sleep at night I say go for it. But a quality BCG kept lubed with a quality lubricant (MGL, slip2000, mobile 1, vagisil) will keep runiing for as long as you need it to Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 12:06:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Has anyone found them to be significantly easier to clean? I have one with the ionbond finish, and haven't noticed it to be much easier to clean. Although I've only cleaned it once so far, so I'm wondering what others have found?
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Posted: 12/17/2010 12:13:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Mine's chromed. I got it because I liked the looks.
I'm not cacticool ninja door kicker on leave from a Space Shuttle door gunner position. I have no idea how it will perform in bad conditions like mud, ice, and zero gravity. It's just good fun. 
I heard it "might" be a bit easier to clean, too, but that's not why I got it. Maybe I should try having one gold plated? |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 12:25:13 PM EDT
[#12]
I dont know why this question is asked EVERY day. Its like no one knows how to use a search button.
But anyways... here is the opinion of someone who actually uses the Fail Zero one. for the millionth time. It works as advertised. Plain and simple. It does EXACTLY what it claims to do. It will run for thousands of rounds with no lube or cleaning and no malfunctions. You can then take it out and wipe it down with a paper towel and it will be clean. Pop it back in.. and it will be ready to go again. My rifle is ready to go anytime of day, in any condition, any temp, wet,dry,dirty,clean, whatever.... for as long as i need it to. The DoD has done independent testing of their own on it. And that testing has proved that the coating does what it advertises and reduces malfunctions over the regular lubrication schedule they currently use. allow me to repeat.... the DoD testing found that using a Fail Zero BCG performed better than their current lubrication schedule. Part of the new Army M4 upgrade program is upgrading the Bolt. As in the coating on it. I wonder which coating they are going to use? So in the end like most other things.. you have to decide if it is worth it for you. Am i a tier one tactical operator that shoots his rifle filled with sand? Nope. But am i an american who has the right to buy whatever i damn please if i believe the value outweighs the cost? Damn Right. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 12:48:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Yeah this question does get asked seemingly everyday...
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Posted: 12/17/2010 1:31:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
-snip- The DoD has done independent testing of their own on it. And that testing has proved that the coating does what it advertises and reduces malfunctions over the regular lubrication schedule they currently use. allow me to repeat.... the DoD testing found that using a Fail Zero BCG performed better than their current lubrication schedule. Part of the new Army M4 upgrade program is upgrading the Bolt. As in the coating on it. I wonder which coating they are going to use? -snip- I read what you are saying... but where is a link to this DoD testing? Right now all I see is your opinion and unsubstantiated claims. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 1:32:48 PM EDT
[#15]
I love my Young's Chrome BCG. It takes 1 napkin, 30 seconds, and no cleaner to clean it.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 1:36:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
The DoD has done independent testing of their own on it. And that testing has proved that the coating does what it advertises and reduces malfunctions over the regular lubrication schedule they currently use. allow me to repeat.... the DoD testing found that using a Fail Zero BCG performed better than their current lubrication schedule. Part of the new Army M4 upgrade program is upgrading the Bolt. As in the coating on it. I wonder which coating they are going to use? Got documentation? |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 1:46:22 PM EDT
[#17]
I have both, NiB and standard BCGs, I just don't care if mine is coated or not- it adds no value to my weapon, none, nada. If you want that warm fuzzy feeling and it makes you feel better, fine. I honestly feel that it does not matter in my weapons- I will not buy another fancy coated BCG. I trust my BCM and Noveske BCGs just fine without any fancy coating, I just drop a few drops of oil on mine every several hundred rounds and have no problems.
Mine clean up just fine also, I do not see much benefit on cleaning since I use synthetic lubes mostly. It's your money, buy what you want- I tried it and am not that impressed. 
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Posted: 12/17/2010 2:59:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The DoD has done independent testing of their own on it. And that testing has proved that the coating does what it advertises and reduces malfunctions over the regular lubrication schedule they currently use. allow me to repeat.... the DoD testing found that using a Fail Zero BCG performed better than their current lubrication schedule. Part of the new Army M4 upgrade program is upgrading the Bolt. As in the coating on it. I wonder which coating they are going to use? Got documentation? I see one DoE test and then a claim of DoD testing with no documentation on the Fail Zero site. The way I see it, I have no reason to buy fail zero's brand X BCG just to get a coating. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 3:04:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
nope its BLING BLING unless your in Afghanistan under sever conditions you don't need it ,my bolt form a gun i built in the mid 90's got 10 k on it at least and works fine with a spritz of CLP Yeah that stoner guy is a idiot, he should have never designed it that way. 
They are a benifit, becuase they will allow the gun to work longer, the dirtier it gets (especially with a can). If youre a dirt shooter then this would not apply. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 3:21:08 PM EDT
[#20]
If I thought those coatings had any value to me, I would run one.. I don't....
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Posted: 12/17/2010 3:22:09 PM EDT
[#21]
If you have a problem with someone asking this question why do you even respond? Why dont you just ignore the post and move on to the next one
Quoted:
I dont know why this question is asked EVERY day. Its like no one knows how to use a search button. But anyways... here is the opinion of someone who actually uses the Fail Zero one. for the millionth time. It works as advertised. Plain and simple. It does EXACTLY what it claims to do. It will run for thousands of rounds with no lube or cleaning and no malfunctions. You can then take it out and wipe it down with a paper towel and it will be clean. Pop it back in.. and it will be ready to go again. My rifle is ready to go anytime of day, in any condition, any temp, wet,dry,dirty,clean, whatever.... for as long as i need it to. The DoD has done independent testing of their own on it. And that testing has proved that the coating does what it advertises and reduces malfunctions over the regular lubrication schedule they currently use. allow me to repeat.... the DoD testing found that using a Fail Zero BCG performed better than their current lubrication schedule. Part of the new Army M4 upgrade program is upgrading the Bolt. As in the coating on it. I wonder which coating they are going to use? So in the end like most other things.. you have to decide if it is worth it for you. Am i a tier one tactical operator that shoots his rifle filled with sand? Nope. But am i an american who has the right to buy whatever i damn please if i believe the value outweighs the cost? Damn Right. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 4:36:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Will be getting a Fail Zero BCG for my next build.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:04:00 PM EDT
[#23]
The latest widget is always mondo Kool, but from some of these answers, the internet commando posters have no clue.
The simple truth is that by the time you have fired enough rounds to make the slightest difference of super coating versus oil on a bolt carrier, your own life expectancy has been used up in combat and your weapon is cooked beyond repair by now. The bolt is the least of your worries. Or put another way, you are unlikely to survive long enough to ever do a real test and if you did the rest of your weapon is toast. How Now Brown Cow, you say, Hold On There. Simple story. I once had the need to put roughly 1000 rounds through an M16 dash nothing, triangular handuards-stupid sights-pencil barrel, early version. Three of us had one rifle. Two loading, one firing. After about 250-300 rounds, the bolt was a little sluggish, the sound had slowed down, and the barrel had gone shades of the orange red transparent group. Mostly, it was too hot to hold. Canteen water went into the open ejection port, through the brrel, and into the handguards. Quickly cooled. LSA got sprayed into the ejection port and on the bolt face. Repeat for another couple three hundered. Ditto and ditto. Party over. In the crappy early version, not one, not a single, not even "a" malfunction. The bolt didn't give a dam what kind of finish or oil it had. It just needed to be wet. So what's the problem you ask? There was no barrel left. The interior was probably 25 caliber, there was no hint of rifling, and it looked like a dry lake bed craze cracked . The result? Just discarded and a better one found. Point: What coating is on the bolt carrier don't matter. If its wet, it runs. Good luck with sending that much out without getting hit with incoming. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:38:04 PM EDT
[#24]
I run a chrome plated BCG in my home defense go-to piece.
The only real benefit I can see over a standard BCG is that chrome plated ones clean up a helluva lot easier and faster. The dirt and carbon fouling practically FALLS off of them (an exaggeration of course, but not by much). I was amazed at how much easier it is to clean one. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:40:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I run a chrome plated BCG in my home defense go-to piece. The only real benefit I can see over a standard BCG is that chrome plated ones clean up a helluva lot easier and faster. The dirt and carbon fouling practically FALLS off of them (an exaggeration of course, but not by much). Do you know why the military discontinued chrome bolts/bolt carriers? |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:42:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I run a chrome plated BCG in my home defense go-to piece. The only real benefit I can see over a standard BCG is that chrome plated ones clean up a helluva lot easier and faster. The dirt and carbon fouling practically FALLS off of them (an exaggeration of course, but not by much). Do you know why the military discontinued chrome bolts/bolt carriers? As with most things, I would imagine it did not pass a cost/benefit analysis. A lot of what the military does falls under the category of "good enough, but not necessarily best" - despite what a helluva lot of people here seem to think. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:46:14 PM EDT
[#27]
I have standard (most of them), chrome (1) and fail zero (1).
The chrome is easier/quicker to clean. Not sure what would have happened with a standard bolt in this situation––––I had a jam (bad one) with the bolt not quite forward and badly locked up. I had to remove the butt stock and use a soft faced hammer to drive the bolt forward so i could get the receiver halves apart. Then I had to use a GI cleaning rod and the hammer again to drive the bolt rearward (empty still in the chamber). The bolt did not come free till it was more than far enough back for the empty to be removed. When it did pop loose I found a primer that had blown out of a previous case. It was all crushed/torn and the only way I knew it was a primer was due to the shiny coating and one slighly rounded edge. What amazed me was that for it to have been stuck that hard (the primer got between the carrier and the upper receiver there somewhere) and take all that effort to drive out there is not a single mark on the carrier to show where the primer was located. It didn't even scratch the surface of the coating. Now I don't intend to run any of them without lubrication but the chrome or fail zero bolts certainly are "slicker" and harder than the standard carriers and bolts. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:48:02 PM EDT
[#28]
I run one of the Spikes NiB bolts in my SHTF rifle because I want it to work when it needs to. Do I NEED the NiB coating, not really but it makes me feel a helluva lot better knowing that my rifle will go bang when I pull the trigger no matter what kind of crap is injected into the receiver. I also like the minimal cleaning time needed to maintain it.
Is it a needed or essential piece of equipment, no. Is it a nice piece of equipment that adds an extra comfort level, yes. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:59:13 PM EDT
[#29]
To all the "chrome/Failzero/IonBond is merely bling" proclaimers: Are pistons in car engines phosphate or chrome?
The bolt carrier group is the only moving part in an AR-15 that encounters significant friction (other than the bullet going down the barrel.....oh, wait, that's chrome-lined or stainless steel, too!). Why wouldn't you want something that has a greater amount of inherent lubricity? As Pat Rogers, Mike Pannone, and others have proven, an AR will run without frequent lubrication, cleaning, etc. But my car will also run longer than 5,000 miles without an oil change. Does that mean it's a good idea? Phosphate finish BCGs are fine, but there are improvements widely available in the form of chrome, Failzero, IonBond, etc. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:10:49 PM EDT
[#30]
I dont think fail zero is BS if it was it wouldnt be used in mortar tubes and black hawk rotor hoists.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:14:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
To all the "chrome/Failzero/IonBond is merely bling" proclaimers: Are pistons in car engines phosphate or chrome? The bolt carrier group is the only moving part in an AR-15 that encounters significant friction (other than the bullet going down the barrel.....oh, wait, that's chrome-lined or stainless steel, too!). Why wouldn't you want something that has a greater amount of inherent lubricity? As Pat Rogers, Mike Pannone, and others have proven, an AR will run without frequent lubrication, cleaning, etc. But my car will also run longer than 5,000 miles without an oil change. Does that mean it's a good idea? Phosphate finish BCGs are fine, but there are improvements widely available in the form of chrome, Failzero, IonBond, etc. Does your catalytic converter contain palladium? Maybe you should coat your BCG in Palladium...
1. I assume the average AR sees less than 10K rds in it's lifetime. A well used AR probably will have 25-50K rds on it. 2. A car engine turns at 1K rpm at IDLE. Sitting at stoplights today you already well surpassed the number of cycles an AR will see in its lifetime. 3. Your comparison is mute and not even close to being correct. If the militaries of the world can go without " improvements widely available in the form of chrome, Failzero, IonBond, etc. " it then could be said that for a civilian user, gimmicky platings are just wasted money. Is your AR ever going to see the use associated with a military owned AR, no. Did the US military once use Chrome? yes. The answer to why they discontinued chrome bolts/carriers still has not been answered. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:27:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Standard phosphated finish is just fine. I have a preference toward hard chrome plating because of the ease of cleaning. Hardness in the exterior finish of a BCG merans nothing. Everything is harder than an anodized aluminum upper, so the upper is always going to be the sacrificial part. Just use lots of lube on the outside of the carrier.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:28:01 PM EDT
[#33]
I think why does the military discontinue anything..either it doesnt work or is too costly..I vote too costly+shiny.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 7:30:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Standard phosphated fionish is just fine. I have a preference toward hard chrome plating because of the ease of cleaning. Hardness in the exterior finish of a BCG merans nothing. Everything is harder than an anodized aluminum upper, so the upper is always going to be the sacrificial part. Just use lots of lube on the outside of the carrier.
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:16:23 PM EDT
[#35]
I be you if the military still used chrome you would all say phosphate isnt enough
For now on I'm going chrome just because I dont have to scrub to clean it. Also it seems it doesnt get as dirty either. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:19:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I be you if the military still used chrome you would all say phosphate isnt enough
For now on I'm going chrome just because I dont have to scrub to clean it. Also it seems it doesnt get as dirty either. I don't have to scrub phosphate BCGs clean. I wipe off some residue and add more lube. Seems to be working fine. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 8:35:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I be you if the military still used chrome you would all say phosphate isnt enough
For now on I'm going chrome just because I dont have to scrub to clean it. Also it seems it doesnt get as dirty either. I don't have to scrub phosphate BCGs clean. I wipe off some residue and add more lube. Seems to be working fine. I just add more lube albeit Im using chrome bcgs. Works all the same. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 10:36:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
To all the "chrome/Failzero/IonBond is merely bling" proclaimers: Are pistons in car engines phosphate or chrome? The bolt carrier group is the only moving part in an AR-15 that encounters significant friction (other than the bullet going down the barrel.....oh, wait, that's chrome-lined or stainless steel, too!). Why wouldn't you want something that has a greater amount of inherent lubricity? As Pat Rogers, Mike Pannone, and others have proven, an AR will run without frequent lubrication, cleaning, etc. But my car will also run longer than 5,000 miles without an oil change. Does that mean it's a good idea? Phosphate finish BCGs are fine, but there are improvements widely available in the form of chrome, Failzero, IonBond, etc. UM....automotive pistons are aluminum. analogy fail I bought a Fail Zero just to try it. I like it, and it works as advertised but I dont think it's worth double the cost of an LMT BCG??? To me the undercut behind the lugs on an LMT is a more important feature than NiB coating. Now If I could get an LMT BCG that's Nib or Ion Bond coated...well I'd be shittin in high cotton. |
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Posted: 12/17/2010 10:59:12 PM EDT
[#39]
Sorry i haven't gotten back to this thread...
and im way to lazy to post quotes... so ill just do it from memory. to the guy who said if im angry i should just skip this thread... meh... im not angry... i just wish more people would use common sense on forums. as far as the documentation goes its right here...http://failzero.com/action-reports/26-failzero-outperforms-legacy-systems-in-dept-of-energy-live-fire-tests.html That is the DoD independent test that shows it performs better than the current lubrication schedule. And i really dont understand why this issue galvanizes so many people. I mean come on... its obviously an actual benefit. It works as advertised. You CAN'T find ONE SINGLE PERSON that is able to refute that. So the real question is... is it worth it to you? And that is a personal choice i suppose... so all of these "is it worth it" threads are pointless really. Well at least talking about the NiB coated ones. But ill keep posting in them... just so the new guys know that its ok to try something better. |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 2:47:09 AM EDT
[#40]
Pistons are aluminum but they don't touch the cylinder wall ... its the piston rings.
And I believe that these are offered in hard chrome. But of course, the rings ride on a film of oil so lubrication is the main concern. |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 2:54:23 AM EDT
[#41]
I don't know why some people have problems with the coated carriers. I for one think they are worth it just because of how easy they are to clean. Last time I cleaned my phosphate bcg's, they took awhile. When I cleaned the spikes chrome bcg and the fail zero, all I did was wipe them off and they were as clean as when I bought them. Makes life much easier on me. If you want something that obviously makes your gun easier to clean, then by all means get one. If you don't think that easier clean up is worth while, then just pass on them.
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Posted: 12/18/2010 4:04:08 AM EDT
[#42]
My Ion bonded BCG from BCM cleans up faster. Also anything with a lubricity factor is a bonus.
I agree its not "Must Have" but dont knock it off as totaly useless because you cant afford / dont want to spend the extra cash. |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 5:04:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Sorry i haven't gotten back to this thread... and im way to lazy to post quotes... so ill just do it from memory. to the guy who said if im angry i should just skip this thread... meh... im not angry... i just wish more people would use common sense on forums. as far as the documentation goes its right here...http://failzero.com/action-reports/26-failzero-outperforms-legacy-systems-in-dept-of-energy-live-fire-tests.html That is the DoD independent test that shows it performs better than the current lubrication schedule. And i really dont understand why this issue galvanizes so many people. I mean come on... its obviously an actual benefit. It works as advertised. You CAN'T find ONE SINGLE PERSON that is able to refute that. So the real question is... is it worth it to you? And that is a personal choice i suppose... so all of these "is it worth it" threads are pointless really. Well at least talking about the NiB coated ones. But ill keep posting in them... just so the new guys know that its ok to try something better. For someone so set on the "facts" of the "test" you fail to comprehend that that was most certainly NOT a DoD test. A bolt carrier group (BCG) which had been surfaced with a metal coating (EXO™) and provided
by UCT Coatings was installed into an M4 style rifle, serial number 8029672, which is permanently modified for blank fire. It is important to note, the BCG provided to Unwin by UCT Coatings was used and had already been in some kind of service prior to Unwin’s testing. The extent of use is unknown. This rifle will be referred to as the “test rifle”. Two “control” blank fire M4s were used; one that was properly lubricated and one that was over lubricated. The properly lubricated rifle, serial number 6235968, will simulate users that fail to clean or lubricate their firearms for extended periods of time, and the over lubricated rifle, serial number 6235632, will simulate users who, in lieu of proper cleaning time, equipment or facilities, opt to continue to re-lube the firearm in order to keep it functioning. Prior to the beginning of each test, all rifles received a detailed cleaning so as to start each test in as near perfect a condition as possible. As another control, the same magazines were used in each rifle for every test. All tests were either conducted or observed by one of Unwin’s Engagement Simulation Systems (ESS) Technicians, who are also armorers certified through the Department of Energy’s (DOE) National Training Center (NTC). The above is hardly a scientific test by any means. Two "control" rifles, both of which are different against a single rifle with a new coated bolt carrier, properly lubed is NOT a scientific test. The testor's also have a conflict of interest... 
Please continue to post about failzero but don't forget to include that your above mentioned test is NOT scientific, nor is it from the Department of DEFENSE. |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 5:43:29 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sorry i haven't gotten back to this thread... and im way to lazy to post quotes... so ill just do it from memory. to the guy who said if im angry i should just skip this thread... meh... im not angry... i just wish more people would use common sense on forums. as far as the documentation goes its right here...http://failzero.com/action-reports/26-failzero-outperforms-legacy-systems-in-dept-of-energy-live-fire-tests.html That is the DoD independent test that shows it performs better than the current lubrication schedule. And i really dont understand why this issue galvanizes so many people. I mean come on... its obviously an actual benefit. It works as advertised. You CAN'T find ONE SINGLE PERSON that is able to refute that. So the real question is... is it worth it to you? And that is a personal choice i suppose... so all of these "is it worth it" threads are pointless really. Well at least talking about the NiB coated ones. But ill keep posting in them... just so the new guys know that its ok to try something better. For someone so set on the "facts" of the "test" you fail to comprehend that that was most certainly NOT a DoD test. A bolt carrier group (BCG) which had been surfaced with a metal coating (EXO™) and provided
by UCT Coatings was installed into an M4 style rifle, serial number 8029672, which is permanently modified for blank fire. It is important to note, the BCG provided to Unwin by UCT Coatings was used and had already been in some kind of service prior to Unwin’s testing. The extent of use is unknown. This rifle will be referred to as the “test rifle”. Two “control” blank fire M4s were used; one that was properly lubricated and one that was over lubricated. The properly lubricated rifle, serial number 6235968, will simulate users that fail to clean or lubricate their firearms for extended periods of time, and the over lubricated rifle, serial number 6235632, will simulate users who, in lieu of proper cleaning time, equipment or facilities, opt to continue to re-lube the firearm in order to keep it functioning. Prior to the beginning of each test, all rifles received a detailed cleaning so as to start each test in as near perfect a condition as possible. As another control, the same magazines were used in each rifle for every test. All tests were either conducted or observed by one of Unwin’s Engagement Simulation Systems (ESS) Technicians, who are also armorers certified through the Department of Energy’s (DOE) National Training Center (NTC). The above is hardly a scientific test by any means. Two "control" rifles, both of which are different against a single rifle with a new coated bolt carrier, properly lubed is NOT a scientific test. The testor's also have a conflict of interest...
Please continue to post about failzero but don't forget to include that your above mentioned test is NOT scientific, nor is it from the Department of DEFENSE. As a Degreed ME with years of testing experience, that is not a test that I'd be citing as proof of anything. |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 6:12:07 AM EDT
[#45]
I like the idea of a Nickel Boron coating. Everything I've read about the process sounds good. But...Looking at the picture of the of the Fail Zero bolt carrier on Brownell's site, the carrier doesn't look like an M16 style carrier. Personally, that would be my biggest issue with it. According the Spike's website, their carrier is an M16 style. Here are the two pictures I'm looking at:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27448/Product/AR_15_BOLT_CARRIER_GROUP http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/spikes-tactical-nickel-boron-m16-bcg-223556-p-388.html |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 6:14:57 AM EDT
[#46]
I was a military Armorer for 20 years. My experience is mostly M16 the Chrome bolts in the early years were an attempt to relieve chance of malfunction if any of the old ball powder ammo was still in the system. Now as reliability goes the new gimmicks do work! Do not use any polymer coated ammo unless you will clean often and clean well with any AR System it will cause stuck cases and hard to remove deposits in the chamber. Back to the bolt issue this is from a Qualified Armorer and it is not gospel but heed my words if you want your weapon to work and be repairable no mater what the situation. Always use the most common GI Parts as if in battle and looking for parts what will you find? GI Parts. If the SHTF what will you be most likely to find? GI Parts. For the ones that went to the one of many piston systems if it goes down you will have an expensive club in your hands. GI Parts will not help you. ( unless you change the whole system back! ) If you want to keep it running Use GI Parts and Perform the GI type of Cleaning and Maintnence. Eugene Stoner was a Genius, However the US Military has perfected this system after many experiences good and bad.
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Posted: 12/18/2010 6:16:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Sorry i haven't gotten back to this thread... and im way to lazy to post quotes... so ill just do it from memory. to the guy who said if im angry i should just skip this thread... meh... im not angry... i just wish more people would use common sense on forums. as far as the documentation goes its right here...http://failzero.com/action-reports/26-failzero-outperforms-legacy-systems-in-dept-of-energy-live-fire-tests.html That is the DoD independent test that shows it performs better than the current lubrication schedule. And i really dont understand why this issue galvanizes so many people. I mean come on... its obviously an actual benefit. It works as advertised. You CAN'T find ONE SINGLE PERSON that is able to refute that. So the real question is... is it worth it to you? And that is a personal choice i suppose... so all of these "is it worth it" threads are pointless really. Well at least talking about the NiB coated ones. But ill keep posting in them... just so the new guys know that its ok to try something better. DoE = Dept of Energy DoD = Dept of Defense DoE =/= DoD That is why us "lazy" folk are still looking for these "DoD tests." |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 7:21:07 AM EDT
[#48]
Well, the finish and lubrication the military uses is not broken; so, why fix something that is not broke? Goes along with the same logic as why replace a $10 gas tube for a couple hundred bucks part (gas piston) that does the same thing. Use the money you save to buy quality ammo and go shooting.
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Posted: 12/18/2010 7:44:53 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
I was a military Armorer for 20 years. My experience is mostly M16 the Chrome bolts in the early years were an attempt to relieve chance of malfunction if any of the old ball powder ammo was still in the system. Now as reliability goes the new gimmicks do work! Do not use any polymer coated ammo unless you will clean often and clean well with any AR System it will cause stuck cases and hard to remove deposits in the chamber. Back to the bolt issue this is from a Qualified Armorer and it is not gospel but heed my words if you want your weapon to work and be repairable no mater what the situation. Always use the most common GI Parts as if in battle and looking for parts what will you find? GI Parts. If the SHTF what will you be most likely to find? GI Parts. For the ones that went to the one of many piston systems if it goes down you will have an expensive club in your hands. GI Parts will not help you. ( unless you change the whole system back! ) If you want to keep it running Use GI Parts and Perform the GI type of Cleaning and Maintnence. Eugene Stoner was a Genius, However the US Military has perfected this system after many experiences good and bad. That Myth has been found to be just that for many years now. The Polymer has nothing to do with stuck cases and there are many of us who have run thousands of rds thu guns (made to a spec) that have no issues.. And following the GI type cleaning and Maint has also been proven to be inadequate...and prematurely wears parts due to over cleaning and insufficient lube... |
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Posted: 12/18/2010 8:12:14 AM EDT
[#50]
How dare anybody try to improve anything on this weapon platform!
You want to dramatically decrease friction on moving metal parts inside of a hot firearm in a multitude of different harsh environments, extend periods between cleanings, make cleaning quicker and easier, provide the ability to run without lube if absolutely necessary?? And you want to charge a small fee for all of this?? Gimmicks! They're all just expensive gimmicks I tell you!!! |
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