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Posted: 7/28/2010 5:50:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Thanks for taking that video.
I actually just went from a Carbine Buffer to BCM H2 for my 16" Carbine. I figured since 16" carbines are a tad more overgassed, H2 would be the right choice. That and I found out Colt is shipping M4's with H2s now. ETA: Interested in the results from using 5.56. Any reason you went with 5.45 for your video? ETA II (after adding 1000 FPS): THANK you for taking the time to do this. I agree with your later post ... 9mm seems like the worst offender for bolt bounce. Carbine buffer wasn't so bad. Seemed to be little difference between H and ST-T2 |
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Posted: 7/28/2010 5:53:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Thanks for taking that video. I actually just went from a Carbine Buffer to BCM H2 for my 16" Carbine. I figured since 16" carbines are a tad more overgassed, H2 would be the right choice. That and I found out Colt is shipping M4's with H2s now. ETA: Interested in the results from using 5.56. Any reason you went with 5.45 for your video? Yes. In addition to forgetting an ST-T2 buffer, I also forgot 5.56 ammunition (other than a box of 20 rounds I shot through the SR556 on various gas settings). I should be returning to the range in the next few days with more stuff. |
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Posted: 7/28/2010 6:16:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Very cool vid.
Pretty dramatic differences. I am curious, if finding the ideal buffer to eliminate bolt bounce in a clean weapon would later on hamper reliability if the weapon was really fouled, where as possibly a heavier buffer would be able to power on thru? |
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Posted: 7/28/2010 6:46:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Cool video, great demonstration of bolt bounce.
Do you think the ST-T2 will prevent bolt bounce like the H, or do you think the lack of the reciprocrating weights will cause an effect more like the 9mm buffer? |
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Posted: 7/28/2010 7:07:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Does that mean this would be worth the money?
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Posted: 7/28/2010 7:36:59 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:08:04 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Very cool vid. Pretty dramatic differences. I am curious, if finding the ideal buffer to eliminate bolt bounce in a clean weapon would later on hamper reliability if the weapon was really fouled, where as possibly a heavier buffer would be able to power on thru? The only reason I run a extra Heavy buffer in my 14.5 M4`s is to get on Target a Tad bit Faster. Ive ran Carbine H buffer H2 buffer 9mm buffer I havent had any problems useing the buffers above. even when very dirty. Still run a 9mm buffer 100% of the time in my M4 25 bucks @ RRA RRA makes a few different types of 9mm buffers |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:12:34 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Cool video, great demonstration of bolt bounce. Do you think the ST-T2 will prevent bolt bounce like the H, or do you think the lack of the reciprocrating weights will cause an effect more like the 9mm buffer? My 9mm has wiegths( still havent seen a pic yet of the kind I have) RRA makes different types of 9mm buffers Ive got close to 3000 rds without a single problem what so ever ammo M193- to many to list M855- same SS109-same MK262 BH77 BH75 Win USA 45gr |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:30:26 AM EDT
[#9]
Interesting, indeed.
Do you have any short-stroke piston guns you may be able to test later 87GN? I'm curious as that's what I primarily run and I have a feeling that it would cycle differently than a DI gun with the same buffer. I'm very interested in seeing 5.56 with the ST-T2 buffer. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:33:12 AM EDT
[#10]
I wonder how the Enidyne buffer would have performed.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:50:41 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Cool video, great demonstration of bolt bounce. Do you think the ST-T2 will prevent bolt bounce like the H, or do you think the lack of the reciprocrating weights will cause an effect more like the 9mm buffer? The ST-T2 has tungsten powder in it to act like the standard weight sliding back and forth which eliminates bolt bounce. Shooting with the ST-T2 is noticeably quieter and smoother than a standard carbine buffer. With my BCM 16" middy and the ST-T2 my brass ejects between 3:00-4:00 (ideal). It was an improvement over the standard buffer which was ejecting at 1:00-2:00. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:54:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Interesting, indeed. Do you have any short-stroke piston guns you may be able to test later 87GN? I'm curious as that's what I primarily run and I have a feeling that it would cycle differently than a DI gun with the same buffer. I'm very interested in seeing 5.56 with the ST-T2 buffer. I do have video of the SR556, setting 3 is clearly not appropriate for powerful ammo and a clean weapon  but will wait until I have more footage of all settings before I post it up.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:58:33 AM EDT
[#13]
Really interesting how the bolt bounce seemed to be a lot less with the H buffer.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:59:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Very cool vid. Pretty dramatic differences. I am curious, if finding the ideal buffer to eliminate bolt bounce in a clean weapon would later on hamper reliability if the weapon was really fouled, where as possibly a heavier buffer would be able to power on thru? Often they are one and the same. An H2 or H3 would probably be prudent with this 5.45 carbine (and many other carbines). Quoted:
Cool video, great demonstration of bolt bounce. Do you think the ST-T2 will prevent bolt bounce like the H, or do you think the lack of the reciprocrating weights will cause an effect more like the 9mm buffer? I believe it will perform like the H, but will try to get video today. Depends on your rifle. Quoted:
Quoted:
Cool video, great demonstration of bolt bounce. Do you think the ST-T2 will prevent bolt bounce like the H, or do you think the lack of the reciprocrating weights will cause an effect more like the 9mm buffer? My 9mm has wiegths( still havent seen a pic yet of the kind I have) RRA makes different types of 9mm buffers Ive got close to 3000 rds without a single problem what so ever ammo M193- to many to list M855- same SS109-same MK262 BH77 BH75 Win USA 45gr My 9mm buffer also has a slight bit of weight movement - not like an H, but it's not entirely solid. I, too, have 4000+ rounds through that 5.45 carbine with the 9mm buffer with no problems...and yet it's clearly not the right buffer for the weapon. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:06:59 AM EDT
[#15]
very good info.... thanks o.p.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:25:41 AM EDT
[#16]
IIRC the test someone had out a few months ago was exactly about a heavier buffer and heavier weight action spring to power the bolt thru a dirty weapon. Most of us lit up on the 2,500 round count without lube, but the point was picking a buffer spring combo that would improve keeping the bolt locked up.
I'm wondering if the light buffers don't keep the bolt compressed long enough for the air trapped in the BCG gas expansion chamber to blow out the vent holes. It bounces on the cushion because there's not enough impulse to turn the bolt and lock it. Reference marks of where the BCG is locked up vs the upper might help show more of what's bouncing. Great video, caught it on the blog first this morning. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:35:02 AM EDT
[#17]
I'v only uses the standard and ST-T2 buffers and the ST-T2 is fantastic in comparison. It really smoothens up the action. Has anyone tried both the 9mm and ST-T2 buffers and have any thoughts on which they prefered?
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Posted: 7/29/2010 7:03:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Definitely one of your more interesting tests, 87GN.
I'd like to see it run with one of those new A5 buffer tubes from the boys down the street at Vltor 
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Posted: 7/29/2010 7:10:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Anxiously awaiting vids of the ST-T2 - I'm running 3 of these and love 'em, but it'd be nice to know they're actually operating as advertised..
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Posted: 7/29/2010 7:24:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Just to ask What style bolt carrier is used in that video? And mil spec six position tube and spring right?
Thanks for the video and I would love to see this again with 5.56X45 or .223 rem. Great work would love to analyze my own carbine. What would it take for me to take video at that speed? |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 1:39:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Today I tested 5 buffers in 3 rifles with 2 types of ammunition. This footage is at 1000fps instead of 420fps. More detail was needed to discern between the various combinations.
Video editing will take me a while. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 2:06:41 PM EDT
[#22]
cool test, I'm really interested to see today's stuff.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 4:04:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Today I tested 5 buffers in 3 rifles with 2 types of ammunition. This footage is at 1000fps instead of 420fps. More detail was needed to discern between the various combinations. Video editing will take me a while. 
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Posted: 7/29/2010 4:46:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Could I be wrong when I say it looks like both the carbine and 9mm buffer had bolt bounce while the H buffer had zero bolt bounce?
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Posted: 7/29/2010 4:56:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Could I be wrong when I say it looks like both the carbine and 9mm buffer had bolt bounce while the H buffer had zero bolt bounce? Nope. That is correct. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 4:58:33 PM EDT
[#26]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=575Q0O41u5s
Differences between yesterday and today: 5.45 has a different recoil impulse than 5.56 Carbine buffer used in today's test was not the one used yesterday: today's weighed 3.2oz instead of 2.9oz Yesterday's BCG was an 11.1oz AR-15 pattern one, today's BCGs are all 11.5oz M16 pattern examples Observations: All else being equal, Midlength > Carbine 9mm buffers do not belong on rifle caliber ARs. No malfunctions of any kind were observed, so this was more of a "tuning" exercise than a "will it work" exercise. I really need to get my hands on an A5 buffer, it should perform quite like the rifle buffer (that is, very well). It was much easier to film yesterday, when I had skilled help behind the camera. Solo, I wasn't able to line every shot up perfectly. I ended up running out of ammunition before I managed to get a good shot of every possible combination. However, what is there is, I believe, quite sufficient. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:22:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Excellent information. Thank you for taking the time to do this!
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:40:56 PM EDT
[#28]
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I agree, this is excellent information.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:44:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Great info!
any chance of H2 and H3 buffers... |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:58:03 PM EDT
[#30]
now all you have to do is play with the different springs on the market combined with the different buffers. Tubbs SSS is the one I'd be most interested in. That'll keep you busy for another case or two of ammo
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:58:59 PM EDT
[#31]
sorry...i don't get it. unless you are able to test all weights of buffers, this video does not show much. what are we looking for exactly? bolt bounce? again i appreciate the time you take to make videos/blogs like this, but it seems they are always incomplete. just my observation of course. (flame on)
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Posted: 7/29/2010 5:59:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Interesting... It looks like the Rifle buffer performed best in all three guns tested as far as the BCG bouncing back. The Spike's ST-T2 seemed like a close second to me. The undisputed worst was the standard Carbine buffer, at least from my subjective view.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:01:51 PM EDT
[#33]
Thanks for the videos!
Wonder how things would change on sbr/pistol length barrels. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:02:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
sorry...i don't get it. unless you are able to test all weights of buffers, this video does not show much. what are we looking for exactly? bolt bounce? again i appreciate the time you take to make videos/blogs like this, but it seems they are always incomplete. just my observation of course. (flame on) They start out complete, but I manage to mess up shots and not bring enough ammo
I will be getting my hands on as much as I can in terms of buffers. If you want to take something away from it as is, fine. If not, fine. Just enjoy the cool slow motion video I have no problem with your comments in this or any of my other threads.
As for what you might be looking for...bolt bounce, carrier velocity, ejection pattern, unlocking time (need higher speed video for that, really), how far the BCG travels back, etc. Also, not just bounce, but the speed and force with which it returns to battery once it has bounced. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:06:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
sorry...i don't get it. unless you are able to test all weights of buffers, this video does not show much. what are we looking for exactly? bolt bounce? again i appreciate the time you take to make videos/blogs like this, but it seems they are always incomplete. just my observation of course. (flame on) You don't have to shoot every single permutation of weapon, buffer and ammo to draw a reasonable conclusion. For example, one reasonable conclusion is 9mm buffers bounce a whole lot, and that may be useful to someone. Why you gotta crap in other peoples threads for no reason? 
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:11:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: sorry...i don't get it. unless you are able to test all weights of buffers, this video does not show much. what are we looking for exactly? bolt bounce? again i appreciate the time you take to make videos/blogs like this, but it seems they are always incomplete. just my observation of course. (flame on) You don't have to shoot every single permutation of weapon, buffer and ammo to draw a reasonable conclusion. For example, one reasonable conclusion is 9mm buffers bounce a whole lot, and that may be useful to someone. Why you gotta crap in other peoples threads for no reason? He just plays Devil's advocate. It balances things out and can help make sure that we thoroughly test theories with a bit of skepticism. I'm tempted to try this myself if I can get the right camera on my POF piston system Bushy. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:12:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Were you surprised at any of the results? I was surprised the 9mm buffer was such an offender.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:13:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Were you surprised at any of the results? I was surprised the 9mm buffer was such an offender. As was I. I'm also very surprised the rifle buffer was so smooth with carbine and midlength gas systems since it was designed for rifle length. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:16:57 PM EDT
[#39]
All I know is the rifle buffer was as smoooooooth.
Cool test! |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:23:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
sorry...i don't get it. unless you are able to test all weights of buffers, this video does not show much. what are we looking for exactly? bolt bounce? again i appreciate the time you take to make videos/blogs like this, but it seems they are always incomplete. just my observation of course. (flame on) They start out complete, but I manage to mess up shots and not bring enough ammo
I will be getting my hands on as much as I can in terms of buffers. If you want to take something away from it as is, fine. If not, fine. Just enjoy the cool slow motion video I have no problem with your comments in this or any of my other threads.
As for what you might be looking for...bolt bounce, carrier velocity, ejection pattern, unlocking time (need higher speed video for that, really), how far the BCG travels back, etc. Also, not just bounce, but the speed and force with which it returns to battery once it has bounced. gotcha! |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:25:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Were you surprised at any of the results? I was surprised the 9mm buffer was such an offender. as was i. although i never had any problems running a 9mm buffer, but yes it certainly did bounce more than the others tested. i would like to see it compared to the H 2 & 3. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:33:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Thanks for the testing 87GN! As always, I liked the bit of info gathering you did here. Great vidios.
I was suprized to see the rifle buffer run so smooth. Also to see the bit of movement in the ST-T2. This is the buffer that I'm running and have had zero problems. Makes me want to shove a rifle buffer in my 14.5" M4 to see what it would do. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 6:38:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Great job again. I think there could be some very valuable information that could come out of demo's like this, considering the vast array and combination of gas systems, barrel lengths, buffer and BCG weights and ammo types currently on the market.
I would love to see various buffers ran in a 14.5 middy, but you can't make everyone happy
I think you should perhaps put up a paypal link in your blog, so that if folks want to donate a little to help feed this project they can do so. Just sayin'. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 7:01:27 PM EDT
[#44]
Very nice video.
Really shows the virtue of rifle-length setups. Interesting... |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 7:30:02 PM EDT
[#45]
This post (and a good one) proves what a lot of folks have claimed all along, much to the chagrin of some "experts". It brings this to mind. Our very own "Slash" (heavybuffers.com) makes an excellent all S/S carbine buffer. It is the HSS-6.5 oz. w/anti-bounce internal tungsten weights. That is more than twice the weight of a standard carbine buffer and heavier than a rifle buffer as well. Clint states, amongst other things, it will make any .223/5.56 run smoother and improve reliability. He knows of what he speaks. I've used one in my AR for some time with no complaints.
I am not suggesting that one must purchase a $75.00 buffer to achieve reliability but only to describe ( as does the video ) that heavy buffers do work. Often, very well. |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 7:57:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Good stuff here, thanks!
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Posted: 7/29/2010 8:44:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Heres what I want to know, Did you change the buffer tube each time for the rifle buffer? I was under the understanding that a rifle length buffer wont work in a carbine length buffer tube. did you just swap lowers out for one with an A2 stock? or am I incorrect about the buffers fitting.
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Posted: 7/29/2010 9:01:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Great job again. I think there could be some very valuable information that could come out of demo's like this, considering the vast array and combination of gas systems, barrel lengths, buffer and BCG weights and ammo types currently on the market. I would love to see various buffers ran in a 14.5 middy, but you can't make everyone happy
I think you should perhaps put up a paypal link in your blog, so that if folks want to donate a little to help feed this project they can do so. Just sayin'. 14.5 middy video should be..."soon". As for the donations...it's crossed my mind, especially when I browse other blogs that have such links. But if I did, I'd stop posting links to my blog here on Arfcom, and edit my signature/avatar. I'm sure that if I didn't, site staff would soon ask me to.
Quoted:
Thanks for the testing 87GN! As always, I liked the bit of info gathering you did here. Great vidios. I was suprized to see the rifle buffer run so smooth. Also to see the bit of movement in the ST-T2. This is the buffer that I'm running and have had zero problems. Makes me want to shove a rifle buffer in my 14.5" M4 to see what it would do. The rifle setup has, as far as I can remember, been recognized for smooth cycling and lack of recoil (which is, obviously, relative). I didn't encounter any problems with any of the buffers - even the midlengths with the 9mm buffer shooting Wolf functioned. The 5.45 carbine in the first video - I used that 9mm buffer for over 4000 rounds. Not a single malfunction in that time. But, as it turns out, the weapon was functioning in spite of the 9mm buffer, not necessarily because of it. A similarly weighted buffer of the "standard" type would be a much better choice. Quoted:
Heres what I want to know, Did you change the buffer tube each time for the rifle buffer? I was under the understanding that a rifle length buffer wont work in a carbine length buffer tube. did you just swap lowers out for one with an A2 stock? or am I incorrect about the buffers fitting. I had one lower with the rifle buffer tube assembly installed and I just swapped the uppers around (notice that the carbine has FDE receivers except for the rifle buffer shot, the lower is black). |
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Posted: 7/29/2010 9:11:07 PM EDT
[#49]
I have seen videos like this 10+ years ago and since then I
have been making my own buffers that stop bolt bounce and can be tuned for each build and caliber. There is a few other members here on the forums that know how to make and tune a buffer to work the best with the host of choice. . 
. Anti bounce bolt buffer insert that can be tuned 
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Posted: 7/30/2010 3:32:52 AM EDT
[#50]
I won't be able to see the video's until I get home so can someone tell me if standard 9mm buffers were tested in this?
I've been using 9mm buffer exclusively for a few years now with perfect results and I highly recommend them. Bolt bounce and lock time are 2 of the reasons why |
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