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Posted: 6/18/2009 5:40:09 AM EDT
[#1]
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<snip> I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? I'd be interested in knowing Paul's thoughts on this as well ... I'm not Paul, but just for insurance purposes I run an H buffer on my LMT w/ LMT S/A BCG... I figure it helps to make up some of the weight lost... It has been 100%... |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 5:42:13 AM EDT
[#2]
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I don't own a durometer, nor am I a rocket scientist. However, I do own a water glass and a working faucet. Here's is a Colt black insert and a blue one. Clearly the black one is more rigid: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Colt_Inserts2.JPG I tested a couple dozen of each to make sure my initial results weren't a statistical anomaly. That was fun. It didn't occur to me to use tweezers to position the inserts until the very end of the experiment 
Anywho, in my own parts kit I have several Colt springs and inserts, and several of Paul's springs, inserts, and o-rings. They all function perfectly 
That pic is an excellent illustration. IIRC, (re: durometer), the blue is 60 and the black is 80. Just as a note, the color is not what makes it an 80. The color is just used to be able to quickly identify which extractor buffer you have. I have seen commercial black inserts that were not 80s. That is why we have our own inserts run. That way we know the color is correct and more importantly the durometer is correct to spec. |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 5:48:10 AM EDT
[#3]
That makes sense to me Paul
Some of my non-Colt blue inserts were "squishier" than the blue Colt inserts. Feel free to take that pic if you think it would help illustrate the difference in the future. |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 6:14:48 AM EDT
[#4]
This is a little off topic, but what do you guys think about the o-ring causing unneeded stress on the extractor?? Is there any merit to that rumor?
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Posted: 6/18/2009 7:07:11 AM EDT
[#5]
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This is a little off topic, but what do you guys think about the o-ring causing unneeded stress on the extractor?? Is there any merit to that rumor? Quoted:
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<snip> I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 7:07:25 AM EDT
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<snip> <snip> What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? I'd be interested in knowing Paul's thoughts on this as well ... +2 Theoretically maybe... But not enough to become a factor in how you are going to set up your rifle. Paul, thanks for taking the time to provide your input here. One other question re: "setting up your rifle" as it relates to buffers, extraction, ejection, etc. IIRC, Armalite has a tech note that indicates that the most desirable ejection pattern for *any* AR type system (M16, M4, middys ...) is for the brass to land somewhere between 1 and 3 o'clock. On your BCM weapons, do you try to "optimize" your setups with respect to gas port diameters, buffers, springs, inserts, etc. in order to achieve a desired ejection pattern - and if so, do you agree with Armalite's opinion ? |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 7:26:18 AM EDT
[#7]
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This is a little off topic, but what do you guys think about the o-ring causing unneeded stress on the extractor?? Is there any merit to that rumor? Quoted:
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<snip> I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul I don't have data on it. I think Colt or Crane might have done some high speed camera work. |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 7:38:51 AM EDT
[#8]
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<snip> <snip> What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? I'd be interested in knowing Paul's thoughts on this as well ... +2 Theoretically maybe... But not enough to become a factor in how you are going to set up your rifle. Paul, thanks for taking the time to provide your input here. One other question re: "setting up your rifle" as it relates to buffers, extraction, ejection, etc. IIRC, Armalite has a tech note that indicates that the most desirable ejection pattern for *any* AR type system (M16, M4, middys ...) is for the brass to land somewhere between 1 and 3 o'clock. On your BCM weapons, do you try to "optimize" your setups with respect to gas port diameters, buffers, springs, inserts, etc. in order to achieve a desired ejection pattern - and if so, do you agree with Armalite's opinion ? For the M4 barrels and 20" barrels we just follow the TDP for gas ports. For different barrrel types (when there is no USGI TDP) for gas ports and buffers, we want to get in the sweetspot of cycle rate. I like 800rpm with M855 Most will land brass in that area. |
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Posted: 6/18/2009 7:49:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Thanks for your help Paul. I didn't know that all black inserts were not the same. Thanks for pointing that out. I had a few that didn't seem to work right and when replaced with yours the guns ran fine. Now I know why. With Paul's inexpensive 3 packs of springs and inserts I have replaced all my extractor springs and inserts and will not even run a new gun without making the change.
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Posted: 6/18/2009 8:33:56 AM EDT
[#10]
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Thanks for your help Paul. I didn't know that all black inserts were not the same. Thanks for pointing that out. I had a few that didn't seem to work right and when replaced with yours the guns ran fine. Now I know why. With Paul's inexpensive 3 packs of springs and inserts I have replaced all my extractor springs and inserts and will not even run a new gun without making the change. Great to hear! Thanks, Paul
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Posted: 7/7/2009 6:39:11 PM EDT
[#11]
tag
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