User Panel
Posted: 11/25/2008 12:08:03 PM EDT
I just ordered the spare parts kit from Bushmaster and when it arrived I noticed the they included Blue extractor spring inserts. I was under the impression that black inserts are for carbines (which I have) and blue are for rifles. I emailed Bushmaster and this is what they told me:
Hello, Subject: Extractor inserts Bushmaster uses the blue inserts and always has used them. Contrary to rumors they are the same strength as other colored inserts. One company switched from blue inserts to black to indicate the new four coil extractor springs were installed instead of the commercial three coil extractor springs they were using were installed as a visual indicator. They could just look at the color of the insert to tell which extractor spring was installed in their product. Bushmaster has always used the heavy duty four coil extractor springs so the color change was not required. I have seen white, red, orange, blue and black inserts all manufactured from the same material. The extractor spring makes the difference in strength and not the color of the insert. Thank you, Jim What do you all think? Thank you!! |
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Black are for carbines, blue for rifle.
There IS a difference. Err, what I was lead to believe anyway. |
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Throw that weak crap away and use this: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm
Rifle, carbine, it's all good. BSW |
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+1 for BravoCompany but get the 3 pack you will save a few bucks
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20%203pack.htm |
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Nope...the insert isn't what matters, it's the spring. Go with the BCM extractor upgrade with the heavy duty spring and the Crane O-Ring. It will come with the black insert anyway if you're really concerned about it.
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Nope...the insert isn't what matters, it's the spring. Go with the BCM extractor upgrade with the heavy duty spring and the Crane O-Ring. It will come with the black insert anyway if you're really concerned about it. That's the thing, I don't know if i should be concerned about it. I have had FTE but not often. So I guess $12 is just cheep insurance? |
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That's the thing, I don't know if is should be concerned about it. I have had FTE but not often. So I guess $12 is just cheep insurance? Most FTF are due to mags, and FTE's to extractors. If you are running good mags that you trust, then yeah I'd say the extractor tension would be the next thing to tweak. If it is the extractor, the blue insert most likely isn't your problem but a weak spring (not enough tension). |
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Nope...the insert isn't what matters, it's the spring. Go with the BCM extractor upgrade with the heavy duty spring and the Crane O-Ring. It will come with the black insert anyway if you're really concerned about it. That's the thing, I don't know if i should be concerned about it. I have had FTE but not often. So I guess $12 is just cheep insurance? FTE= Failure To Extract? Poor spring tension would be suspect #1, to be followed by a damaged extractor. The BCM upgrade isn't $12 unless they've joined in the recent price gouging. BSW |
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The Cot armores course and Dean Caputo's Carbine Diagnostic course state that there is a durometer difference between blue and black.
I have no idea and have no way to check. However, the standard carbine extractor spring is a 4 coil. Crane Engineering Bulletin #1 advises that it should be replaced with a 5 coil extractor spring, and in their Reliability Kit issues a black insert, 5 coil spring and an "O" ring. Hobby gun makers gut corners on a lot of things in order to keep prices low and meet lesser demands. You make that choice when you buy guns that don't meet a standard, but that is your choice as a consumer. FWIW- all oor carbines have 5 coil springs, black inserts and O rings. YMMV |
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My CMMG carbine came with a blue extractor insert, the BCM kit came with black.
No FTE's since the upgrade, and below is a link to the walk-through I wrote up for installing the kit. Clicky |
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Ive never noticed a difference between blue or black and switched to Xpower extractor springs about 5 years ago.
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My CMMG carbine came with a blue extractor insert, the BCM kit came with black. No FTE's since the upgrade, and below is a link to the walk-through I wrote up for installing the kit. Clicky Thats great man, thank you! |
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I would suggest that the average person would not have the ability to test the difference between a blue and black insert, and trying to determine efficiency from a statistical sample of one is a waste of time.
Crane approached this a number of years ago and addressed it with Engineering Bulletin #1. My feeling is that the5 coil spring is the key, and the insert may or may not help. But we know that they replaced that blue insert and 4 coil spring for a reason.... Just sayin'.... |
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I would suggest that the average person would not have the ability to test the difference between a blue and black insert, and trying to determine efficiency from a statistical sample of one is a waste of time. Crane approached this a number of years ago and addressed it with Engineering Bulletin #1. My feeling is that the5 coil spring is the key, and the insert may or may not help. But we know that they replaced that blue insert and 4 coil spring for a reason.... Just sayin'.... Pat, Do you think the standard spring should be left alone until I have a problem or should I preemptively upgrade? Thank you!! |
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From my perspective- the miniscule cost and ease of replacement maks it a no brainer.
Replace it. Quip- thanks for the page- it goes in my handouts |
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Quip- thanks for the page- it goes in my handouts Glad to help. |
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The M16 and the M4/M4A1 now have the same extractor assembly.
This makes it a no-brainer. One size fits all. The Big Army Comic Book says so. |
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I wanted to +1 what Pat and others said above.
The "real GI" black buffer inserts are of a stronger durometer. Here is where it gets messy, there are commercial buffer inserts on the market that are the same spec as the older blue ones, but made in the black color. So I hate having to say things like this, as it provides as much confusion as it does clairification, but all black buffer inserts are not the same. As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. |
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I wanted to +1 what Pat and others said above. The "real GI" black buffer inserts are of a stronger durometer. Here is where it gets messy, there are commercial buffer inserts on the market that are the same spec as the older blue ones, but made in the black color. So I hate having to say things like this, as it provides as much confusion as it does clairification, but all black buffer inserts are not the same. As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. Thanks for the info, and thanks for making a great extractor kit...no FTE's since the install. |
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I would suggest that the average person would not have the ability to test the difference between a blue and black insert, and trying to determine efficiency from a statistical sample of one is a waste of time. Crane approached this a number of years ago and addressed it with Engineering Bulletin #1. My feeling is that the5 coil spring is the key, and the insert may or may not help. But we know that they replaced that blue insert and 4 coil spring for a reason.... Just sayin'.... This is good Info, Pat is not just an "Internet Expert" ROFL |
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As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. Paul- How does your extractor spring compare to the Colt spring? Our BCM Extractor Spring is manufactured by a 9001:2000 facility employing the latest precision equipment. BCM starts with only the highest quality chrome silicon material, heat treats to stress relieve the product and shot peens to add increased strength.
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I wanted to +1 what Pat and others said above. The "real GI" black buffer inserts are of a stronger durometer. Here is where it gets messy, there are commercial buffer inserts on the market that are the same spec as the older blue ones, but made in the black color. So I hate having to say things like this, as it provides as much confusion as it does clairification, but all black buffer inserts are not the same. As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. Thanks for the info, and thanks for making a great extractor kit...no FTE's since the install. Thank you for your support of BCM! |
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As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. Paul- How does your extractor spring compare to the Colt spring? Our BCM Extractor Spring is manufactured by a 9001:2000 facility employing the latest precision equipment. BCM starts with only the highest quality chrome silicon material, heat treats to stress relieve the product and shot peens to add increased strength.
The BCM™ is much stronger than the current USGI Colt Gold Spring. You will be good to go from the M16 rifle to MK18 shorty. Thanks for asking. and Happy Turkey Day. |
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Black are for carbines, blue for rifle. This is incorrect. The black came out at the same time for both carbines and rifles. The heavy gold spring came out in 2003 for carbines. |
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Additionally, a specific question for Paul ... Which "combination" do YOU suggest/recommend for use in your 16" midlength uppers, as opposed to your 14.5" carbines? IOW, for the 16" mid would you suggest … your BCM: 5 coil spring + black insert + O ring (the "full boat") or 5 coil spring + black insert, but no O ring (or perhaps some “other” configuration for a 16" mid ... not sure what that would be though) I'm not Paul, but if the "full boat" isn't too much tension for a carbine it shouldn't be too much for a rifle or middy. The only way you could have too much is if the extractor won't go over the rim of the cartridge. As long as it does that, then the more the better. A rifle may be less likely to fail due to easier (per se) extraction than the shorter systems, but cheap insurance is cheap insurance. I no longer own any 20" barreled guns. I do have an 18" with a mid length gas system and I run the 4 coil spring with a D-Ring and it runs very well. I've never had a FTE. I've never tried BCM's upgrade but I'm sure it would function much the same way as the MGI D-Ring does. |
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Additionally, a specific question for Paul ... Which "combination" do YOU suggest/recommend for use in your 16" midlength uppers, as opposed to your 14.5" carbines? IOW, for the 16" mid would you suggest … your BCM: 5 coil spring + black insert + O ring (the "full boat") or 5 coil spring + black insert, but no O ring (or perhaps some “other” configuration for a 16" mid ... not sure what that would be though) I'm not Paul either but I have two midlengths and use two different extractor setups. I have a wolf extra power extractor spring and blue insert in one and a 4 coil spring, blue insert and O ring in the other. No FTE since I put them both together. Around 3000 rounds of multiple types of ammo(including Brown Bear) between the two of them. |
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A couple years ago I switched to Wolff Xtra power extractor springs. I NEVER have any extraction problems. I have them in my rifle, my carbine and my SBR and as far as I'm concerned it's the only way to go.
With the Wolff springs you don't have to worry about insert color or play with BS o-rings. |
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Additionally, a specific question for Paul ... Which "combination" do YOU suggest/recommend for use in your 16" midlength uppers, as opposed to your 14.5" carbines? IOW, for the 16" mid would you suggest … your BCM: 5 coil spring + black insert + O ring (the "full boat") or 5 coil spring + black insert, but no O ring (or perhaps some “other” configuration for a 16" mid ... not sure what that would be though) I'm not Paul, but if the "full boat" isn't too much tension for a carbine it shouldn't be too much for a rifle or middy. The only way you could have too much is if the extractor won't go over the rim of the cartridge. As long as it does that, then the more the better. A rifle may be less likely to fail due to easier (per se) extraction than the shorter systems, but cheap insurance is cheap insurance. I no longer own any 20" barreled guns. I do have an 18" with a mid length gas system and I run the 4 coil spring with a D-Ring and it runs very well. I've never had a FTE. I've never tried BCM's upgrade but I'm sure it would function much the same way as the MGI D-Ring does. ––- I'd have to say that I think that's looking at it kind of backwards .... The carbine is dealing with much higher pressure than either the mid or the rifle, so it NEEDS that extra tension, whereas the others (theoretically) DON'T NEED as much. So even though it isn't "too much" for the carbine - which really needs it ... to say that (resultingly) it's not too much for the others that don't need that much - seems to be flawed logic. It would be much more logical to say that if it's not too much for a mid - then it certainly won't be too much for a carbine. ––- ––- And I'd also have to respectfully disagree and say that as far as tension goes, it's not necessarily true to make a blanket statement of "the more, the better". I do think it's possible to have TOO much even if the extractor will still go over the rim while absolutely maxing out the tension. Maybe not so much for carbines or SBRs, but my understanding is that it may be possible to have "too much" for the longer (easier/smoother/lower pressure) gas systems of a 16" mid or 20" rifle. ––- Again, my understaning is that "more" is not - ALWAYS - necessarily a better thing with respect to extractor tension ... however, if that's not accurate then ideally Paul will chime in to offer his expert input and opinions. |
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Additionally, a specific question for Paul ... Which "combination" do YOU suggest/recommend for use in your 16" midlength uppers, as opposed to your 14.5" carbines? IOW, for the 16" mid would you suggest … your BCM: 5 coil spring + black insert + O ring (the "full boat") or 5 coil spring + black insert, but no O ring (or perhaps some “other” configuration for a 16" mid ... not sure what that would be though) I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul |
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Additionally, a specific question for Paul ... Which "combination" do YOU suggest/recommend for use in your 16" midlength uppers, as opposed to your 14.5" carbines? IOW, for the 16" mid would you suggest … your BCM: 5 coil spring + black insert + O ring (the "full boat") or 5 coil spring + black insert, but no O ring (or perhaps some “other” configuration for a 16" mid ... not sure what that would be though) I'm not Paul, but if the "full boat" isn't too much tension for a carbine it shouldn't be too much for a rifle or middy. The only way you could have too much is if the extractor won't go over the rim of the cartridge. As long as it does that, then the more the better. A rifle may be less likely to fail due to easier (per se) extraction than the shorter systems, but cheap insurance is cheap insurance. I no longer own any 20" barreled guns. I do have an 18" with a mid length gas system and I run the 4 coil spring with a D-Ring and it runs very well. I've never had a FTE. I've never tried BCM's upgrade but I'm sure it would function much the same way as the MGI D-Ring does. ––- I'd have to say that I think that's looking at it kind of backwards .... The carbine is dealing with much higher pressure than either the mid or the rifle, so it NEEDS that extra tension, whereas the others (theoretically) DON'T NEED as much. So even though it isn't "too much" for the carbine - which really needs it ... to say that (resultingly) it's not too much for the others that don't need that much - seems to be flawed logic. It would be much more logical to say that if it's not too much for a mid - then it certainly won't be too much for a carbine. ––- ––- And I'd also have to respectfully disagree and say that as far as tension goes, it's not necessarily true to make a blanket statement of "the more, the better". I do think it's possible to have TOO much even if the extractor will still go over the rim while absolutely maxing out the tension. Maybe not so much for carbines or SBRs, but my understanding is that it may be possible to have "too much" for the longer (easier/smoother/lower pressure) gas systems of a 16" mid or 20" rifle. ––- Again, my understaning is that "more" is not - ALWAYS - necessarily a better thing with respect to extractor tension ... however, if that's not accurate then ideally Paul will chime in to offer his expert input and opinions. Perhaps I overstated with "the more the better" as yes, you can have too much. I still see it as cheap insurance in any barrel length rifle or any length gas system though. It's sorta like M4 feed ramps in that regard. Won't hurt to have them and can certainly help. |
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Parts is parts?
Nah.....rifles have souls. I have the BCM black on my DPMS Frankenbuild (my first) because it did have hiccups when extracting. Now it doesn't. On my Bushy PC the blue + Bushy extractor runs fine. It's like girls. You won't know what flower does the trick until you try. |
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As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. Paul- How does your extractor spring compare to the Colt spring? Our BCM Extractor Spring is manufactured by a 9001:2000 facility employing the latest precision equipment. BCM starts with only the highest quality chrome silicon material, heat treats to stress relieve the product and shot peens to add increased strength.
The BCM™ is much stronger than the current USGI Colt Gold Spring. You will be good to go from the M16 rifle to MK18 shorty. Thanks for asking. and Happy Turkey Day. Paul , Isn't the current Colt extractor spring green ? |
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As a note: The BCM™ Black Buffer Insert is made from the Colt USGI spec. Paul- How does your extractor spring compare to the Colt spring? Our BCM Extractor Spring is manufactured by a 9001:2000 facility employing the latest precision equipment. BCM starts with only the highest quality chrome silicon material, heat treats to stress relieve the product and shot peens to add increased strength.
The BCM™ is much stronger than the current USGI Colt Gold Spring. You will be good to go from the M16 rifle to MK18 shorty. Thanks for asking. and Happy Turkey Day. Paul , Isn't the current Colt extractor spring green ? I think the current Colt extractor spring is "gold". But I think the SAW upgrade spring is green. |
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Thanks for the info ! I had to ask because I just received some from SAW the other day and they were green . I didn't know it was an upgraded spring . Cheers !
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Additionally, a specific question for Paul ... Which "combination" do YOU suggest/recommend for use in your 16" midlength uppers, as opposed to your 14.5" carbines? IOW, for the 16" mid would you suggest … your BCM: 5 coil spring + black insert + O ring (the "full boat") or 5 coil spring + black insert, but no O ring (or perhaps some “other” configuration for a 16" mid ... not sure what that would be though) I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? |
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My Stag had the blue insert. 1500 rounds(high quality ammo and cheapo steel) went by with not a single malfunction, but the cam pin seemed to be wearing a little funny. Stopped by the fun store and they had the BCM pin and the extractor upgrade kits were there for $4.95, so what the hell, changed that too and picked up some spares. Another 2400 rounds later and still not a single malfunction with the rifle. To be fair though, nothing ever changed either way, no fte's, brass has always been thrown the same way, so who knows if I needed to change anything.
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<snip> I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? I'd be interested in knowing Paul's thoughts on this as well ... |
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<snip> I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? I'd be interested in knowing Paul's thoughts on this as well ... +2 |
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I need to pull out two of my carriers and take a look at the springs...
My first build back in early 05 I used a CMT ar15 bcg and a 16in M4 barrel (pre BCM) that both came from Bravo co. (great service btw, I have bought several others parts from you once BRD set in ) The first carrier I got was a CMT AR15 that had the blue insert, a friend that helped me with the build put a blue Dring on the extractor, I have never had a problem with that setup and currently that bcg is in a 7.5in pistol, and it still runs great. My three other AR's have LMT auto carriers, two of them I got from Bravo, they have the black insert and they come with a black Oring, the run great. I swapped to the M16 carrier after hearing about issues with 16in barrel and M4 gas system, and my pistol needed a carrier so I upgraded the M4, the gun seemed to behave a little different, mostly it felt like the guns recoil was less sharp and the gun seemed like it hit the target a little harder, but it may of been in my head though. ETA: I installed an H2 buffer at t he same time |
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<snip> I always believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Therefore there are a variety of different extractor set ups working well for the shooter. We have seen too much tension exhibit itself in the form of not fitting over the rim of the casing (and not feeding). We have also see it where it fits over the rim of the casing, but upon the ejection part of the cycle, the grip is so strong that it fails to eject. And once we saw a very strong extraction system work ok when everything was clean, but after high round counts and having a bolt gunked up, the extractor moved less freely, resulting in new extraction issues. If using a BCM extractor spring, I have not found a carbine that “needed” the o-ring to increase extraction power and run properly. However, it has been theorized that the o-rings may offer additional assistance in extractor float issues. Whichever way you set up the BCM spring, o-ring, BCM (“real deal”) black extractor buffer, we have yet to see a circumstance where it could not fix extractor tension issues. 16” middys will require less extractor tension to run properly than a 14.5” would. On a 16” middy, we run a standard CAR buffer or H. (for auto, we run H) On a 14.5”, we run a H or H2 (for auto, we run H2) For me personally I just run the BCM spring and BCM black buffer insert in my BCGs. It has been 100% in the MK18s, BCM 11.5”, M4’s, Middys, and Rifle systems. Hope this info helps, Paul What do you suggest for your 16" M4s? Does using a Semi BCG instead of an Auto BGC make a difference in regard to buffer choice? I'd be interested in knowing Paul's thoughts on this as well ... +2 Theoretically maybe... But not enough to become a factor in how you are going to set up your rifle. |
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