Oddly enough, last time I qual'ed with the AR at work they made us shoot the same target at 25 yards. Any hits out of the black was a dsqual. Several did not make it.

Originally Posted By 0612Devil: For some odd reason most Marines in my company would do rather well at the 500.  Where they threw their shots was in the 200 offhand and 300 kneeling.  (God I hate the kneeling). I was usually getting 9/10 or 10/10.  The prone pos with loop sling is a very stable firing position.  At that range the FSP is roughly the size of the target.  Having a minute per shot isn't that bad either.   Oh, and wind wasn't much of a factor at Quantico due to it's design.  Drum on the other hand was another story...

Outstanding!  Thanks again for your input and for your service.

Do you still shoot a 200 yard rapid-fire qualification using a "Dog" target?  I've been thinking of posting a link to a down-loadable Dog target scaled for 50 yards for people to use, but I've read conflicting information as to the the position, time limit and procedure for that course of fire.

Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By 0612Devil: For some odd reason most Marines in my company would do rather well at the 500.  Where they threw their shots was in the 200 offhand and 300 kneeling.  (God I hate the kneeling). I was usually getting 9/10 or 10/10.  The prone pos with loop sling is a very stable firing position.  At that range the FSP is roughly the size of the target.  Having a minute per shot isn't that bad either.   Oh, and wind wasn't much of a factor at Quantico due to it's design.  Drum on the other hand was another story... Outstanding!  Thanks again for your input and for your service. Do you still shoot a 200 yard rapid-fire qualification using a "Dog" target?  I've been thinking of posting a link to a down-loadable Dog target scaled for 50 yards for people to use, but I've read conflicting information as to the the position, time limit and procedure for that course of fire.

Molon,

Yes, the new range order still has the Dog target being used for Table 1, the KD course, for rapid fire at both the 200 (Standing to sitting, 10 rds in 60 sec) and 300 (Standing to prone, 10 rds in 60 sec) yard lines.  BTW, I have the target art work for the current KD course in powerpoint format, if you haven't already drawn it. IM me an email address, and I'll send it along.

0612,

Are you in Albany?   I agree with your observations. FWIW, I practice almost exclusively off hand. My club's range has a natural 20" reactive target in the 200 yd line berm (okay, it's a flat faced boulder....and the range safety officers are cracking down on people shooting rocks, pardon the pun, dammit!@. )  When I go to the kneeling, mentally I'm shooting it as if I was still in the off hand, from the waist up. It's been successful for me, YMMV.  

ETA: And as gratifying as shooting the boulder has been, it's almost twice the width of the A target's 12" black area. Wanna do the math and give us a reduced A target too?  

Originally Posted By GunnyG: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By 0612Devil: For some odd reason most Marines in my company would do rather well at the 500.  Where they threw their shots was in the 200 offhand and 300 kneeling.  (God I hate the kneeling). I was usually getting 9/10 or 10/10.  The prone pos with loop sling is a very stable firing position.  At that range the FSP is roughly the size of the target.  Having a minute per shot isn't that bad either.   Oh, and wind wasn't much of a factor at Quantico due to it's design.  Drum on the other hand was another story... Outstanding!  Thanks again for your input and for your service. Do you still shoot a 200 yard rapid-fire qualification using a "Dog" target?  I've been thinking of posting a link to a down-loadable Dog target scaled for 50 yards for people to use, but I've read conflicting information as to the the position, time limit and procedure for that course of fire. Molon, Yes, the new range order still has the Dog target being used for Table 1, the KD course, for rapid fire at both the 200 (Standing to sitting, 10 rds in 60 sec) and 300 (Standing to prone, 10 rds in 60 sec) yard lines.  BTW, I have the target art work for the current KD course in powerpoint format, if you haven't already drawn it. IM me an email address, and I'll send it along. 0612, Are you in Albany?   I agree with your observations. FWIW, I practice almost exclusively off hand. My club's range has a natural 20" reactive target in the 200 yd line berm (okay, it's a flat faced boulder....and the range safety officers are cracking down on people shooting rocks, pardon the pun, dammit!@. )  When I go to the kneeling, mentally I'm shooting it as if I was still in the off hand, from the waist up. It's been successful for me, YMMV.   ETA: And as gratifying as shooting the boulder has been, it's almost twice the width of the A target's 12" black area. Wanna do the math and give us a reduced A target too?

The reduced A target is already in the making.  IM sent with e-mail address for target artwork of KD courses.  Thank-you kindly,

Molon

Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By PointBlank: Woopie Shoot a few 10 or 20 group targets at 100 yards and post them   Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float

Looks good but I think you are confusing SD for Range in your tables.

Originally Posted By GunnyG: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By 0612Devil: For some odd reason most Marines in my company would do rather well at the 500.  Where they threw their shots was in the 200 offhand and 300 kneeling.  (God I hate the kneeling). I was usually getting 9/10 or 10/10.  The prone pos with loop sling is a very stable firing position.  At that range the FSP is roughly the size of the target.  Having a minute per shot isn't that bad either.   Oh, and wind wasn't much of a factor at Quantico due to it's design.  Drum on the other hand was another story... Outstanding!  Thanks again for your input and for your service. Do you still shoot a 200 yard rapid-fire qualification using a "Dog" target?  I've been thinking of posting a link to a down-loadable Dog target scaled for 50 yards for people to use, but I've read conflicting information as to the the position, time limit and procedure for that course of fire. Molon, Yes, the new range order still has the Dog target being used for Table 1, the KD course, for rapid fire at both the 200 (Standing to sitting, 10 rds in 60 sec) and 300 (Standing to prone, 10 rds in 60 sec) yard lines.  BTW, I have the target art work for the current KD course in powerpoint format, if you haven't already drawn it. IM me an email address, and I'll send it along. 0612, Are you in Albany?   I agree with your observations. FWIW, I practice almost exclusively off hand. My club's range has a natural 20" reactive target in the 200 yd line berm (okay, it's a flat faced boulder....and the range safety officers are cracking down on people shooting rocks, pardon the pun, dammit!@. )  When I go to the kneeling, mentally I'm shooting it as if I was still in the off hand, from the waist up. It's been successful for me, YMMV.   ETA: And as gratifying as shooting the boulder has been, it's almost twice the width of the A target's 12" black area. Wanna do the math and give us a reduced A target too?

Concur

Negative Gunny, was with AT Bn in Rochester, (formerly known as 8th Tanks H&S) thinking about moving to Garden City come April.  

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By PointBlank: Woopie Shoot a few 10 or 20 group targets at 100 yards and post them   Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float Looks good but I think you are confusing SD for Range in your tables.

I think not.  What exactly is it that you are implying

10 shots, ADCOM M855, LMT/DPMS M4, irons (damn short sight radius), 50 yards.


10 shots, LC M2 Ball, H&R M1 rifle, irons (love that long sight radius), 50 yards.


20 shots in 2 minutes, LC M2 Ball, H&R M1 rifle, irons, 50 yards.

All shot prone, with a sling and a issue-style leather glove.  No shooting coat or glove.

Originally Posted By JER: shutter10.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/10/008/7E/57/B0/89/963Yifr-CeCLAHh5u2jOiybFdRWTYUcU0300.jpg 10 shots, ADCOM M855, LMT/DPMS M4, irons (damn short sight radius), 50 yards. shutter08.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/07/008/73/DB/08/C1/R71xZ5lFVPcEhTkpE0DRbGHdhIRVcGkw0300.jpg 10 shots, LC M2 Ball, H&R M1 rifle, irons (love that long sight radius), 50 yards. shutter08.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/10/006/76/F4/D7/DF/KnnXAocq4Ze1ILtt6tjBbCfiTlgjUn2k0300.jpg 20 shots in 2 minutes, LC M2 Ball, H&R M1 rifle, irons, 50 yards. All shot prone, with a sling and a issue-style leather glove.  No shooting coat or glove.

Strong work!  

Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By PointBlank: Woopie Shoot a few 10 or 20 group targets at 100 yards and post them   Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float Looks good but I think you are confusing SD for Range in your tables. I think not.  What exactly is it that you are implying

This table lists a SD of 43 for the first entry.



Reference:

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By PointBlank: Woopie Shoot a few 10 or 20 group targets at 100 yards and post them   Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float Looks good but I think you are confusing SD for Range in your tables. I think not.  What exactly is it that you are implying This table lists a SD of 43 for the first entry. home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/multiload_comparison.jpg Reference: www.westgard.com/ls14f7.gif

The table lists the standard deviation of the first entry as 43 fps because that is exactly what it came out as.  I have chronographed more than 20 different lots of Federal Gold Medal ammunition and the standard deviations have ranged from 6 fps to 75 fps.

Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Originally Posted By 0612Devil: Originally Posted By Molon: Just a reminder. When printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." In the fleet, hits outside the black are worth 0.  Only MCRD uses the above mentioned scoring system.  Just FYI...  Nice work. Wierd, I thought they went back to the old bootcamp style system. Unless they changed it again, the corps went back to the 250 pt "bootcamp system" in 2005.  My unit  just qualified on the 250 pt partial point system in september. www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/302619F6BAB498E48525706F00619B42?opendocument My buddy's tank company just fucked up and accidently shot on the 65 point system, apparently not everyone has gotten the memo, cuz he almost didn't qualify expert, but still retained his expert because they fucked up and used the wrong scoring system and also scored him on the yard system, when it was a meters range. So he actually ended up still qualifying expert.

Interesting...

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By PointBlank: Woopie Shoot a few 10 or 20 group targets at 100 yards and post them   Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float Looks good but I think you are confusing SD for Range in your tables. I think not.  What exactly is it that you are implying This table lists a SD of 43 for the first entry. home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/multiload_comparison.jpg Reference: www.westgard.com/ls14f7.gif

You still have not offered any evidence to support your claim that 43 is the range, and not the std deviation.

How much do you know about descriptive statistics?

Originally Posted By JER: Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By PointBlank: Woopie Shoot a few 10 or 20 group targets at 100 yards and post them   Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float Looks good but I think you are confusing SD for Range in your tables. I think not.  What exactly is it that you are implying This table lists a SD of 43 for the first entry. home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/multiload_comparison.jpg Reference: www.westgard.com/ls14f7.gif You still have not offered any evidence to support your claim that 43 is the range, and not the std deviation. How much do you know about descriptive statistics?

Teach me Mr. helper!

Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Originally Posted By 0612Devil: Originally Posted By Molon: Just a reminder. When printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." In the fleet, hits outside the black are worth 0.  Only MCRD uses the above mentioned scoring system.  Just FYI...  Nice work. Wierd, I thought they went back to the old bootcamp style system. Unless they changed it again, the corps went back to the 250 pt "bootcamp system" in 2005.  My unit  just qualified on the 250 pt partial point system in september. www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/302619F6BAB498E48525706F00619B42?opendocument My buddy's tank company just fucked up and accidently shot on the 65 point system, apparently not everyone has gotten the memo, cuz he almost didn't qualify expert, but still retained his expert because they fucked up and used the wrong scoring system and also scored him on the yard system, when it was a meters range. So he actually ended up still qualifying expert.

Really?  No shit...  I haven't qual'd since '04 when I picked up 3rd Award.  That would be a welcome change as scoring is a bit more lenient.  Find a way to make EMP headshots a bit easier and life would be great...  hehe

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Teach me Mr. helper!

ar15_rifleman,

For some reason that is beyond me, you seem to doubt that it is possible to have a standard deviation of 43 fps for factory loaded 223/5.56 ammunition.  I have documented the chronographing of thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition and while 43 fps is on the high end of a standard deviation for 223/5.56 ammunition it certainly does occur.

The U.S. military specification (MIL-C-9963D) for M193 ammunition called for a standard deviation "not to exceed 40 fps."  Not so far off from 43 fps, wouldn’t you say?

I don’t usually keep the print-outs from the Oehler 35P chronograph after I’ve entered the pertinent data in my logs, so I don’t have the print-out for the 77 grain Gold Medal ammunition you’re questioning.  I do however have a print-out from my latest chronograph session.  The ammunition tested was Hornady’s 55 grain TAP as fired from a 16” barrel.  The standard deviation for the 10 rounds fired was 43 fps.  The extreme spread (range) was 128 fps.  While this is not typical of Hornady ammunition (as Hornady is no slouch when it comes to quality control) it did none-the-less occur.

Molon

Originally Posted By JER: You still have not offered any evidence to support your claim that 43 is the range, and not the std deviation. How much do you know about descriptive statistics?

You seem to be incredibly stubborn.

An SD of 15 is considered to be quite good in a 3200 fps cartridge, but a 30 fps SD is probably more the norm.  That said it is not unknown to see .223 ammunition with an SD in the 60 to 80 range.   (Oddly enough some of it can still shoot quite accurately at short range where the differences in velocity do not yet catch up with you.  Plus rifles differ in their ability to compensate for or magnify differences in velocities which can minimize the effects of variations in velocity.)

An SD of 43 fps would not be all that unusual.  With this SD it would be expected that 68% of the rounds would fall within a range of 86 fps, 95% would fall within a range of 172 fps and 99% of the rounds fired would fall within a range of 258 fps - more than enough to potentially play hell with a third of your long range shots.

Statistically as long as you are using at least a 10 shot string, the measured SD should be fairly accuracte - unless the SD is itself very large or unless you have the statistical misfortune of encountering an outlier in the 10 shot string.  In that case you will normally find that a longer string will often reduce the impact of any outliers and provide a lower, and more representative,  SD.

When I am chronographing velocity, I will normally use a 10 shot string unless I see an outlier in the individual velocities, in which case I will add another 10 shots to the string.

In your defense, with the shots listed in this thread with an SD of 43, I'd have probably shot another 10 in the string as 2842 fps is a bit too low for my tastes as it is almost twice as far from the mean as any other shot (2876 fps is a bit over half as far, but not much).    

Originally Posted By DakotaFAL: Originally Posted By JER: You still have not offered any evidence to support your claim that 43 is the range, and not the std deviation. How much do you know about descriptive statistics? You seem to be incredibly stubborn. An SD of 15 is considered to be quite good in a 3200 fps cartridge, but a 30 fps SD is probably more the norm.  That said it is not unknown to see .223 ammunition with an SD in the 60 to 80 range.   (Oddly enough some of it can still shoot quite accurately at short range where the differences in velocity do not yet catch up with you.  Plus rifles differ in their ability to compensate for or magnify differences in velocities which can minimize the effects of variations in velocity.) An SD of 43 fps would not be all that unusual.  With this SD it would be expected that 68% of the rounds would fall within a range of 86 fps, 95% would fall within a range of 172 fps and 99% of the rounds fired would fall within a range of 258 fps - more than enough to potentially play hell with a third of your long range shots. Statistically as long as you are using at least a 10 shot string, the measured SD should be fairly accuracte - unless the SD is itself very large or unless you have the statistical misfortune of encountering an outlier in the 10 shot string.  In that case you will normally find that a longer string will often reduce the impact of any outliers and provide a lower, and more representative,  SD. When I am chronographing velocity, I will normally use a 10 shot string unless I see an outlier in the individual velocities, in which case I will add another 10 shots to the string. In your defense, with the shots listed in this thread with an SD of 43, I'd have probably shot another 10 in the string as 2842 fps is a bit too low for my tastes as it is almost twice as far from the mean as any other shot (2876 fps is a bit over half as far, but not much).

. . . you mean like this ?




or this . . .



or this. . .

< - Deleted by moderator. - L >

I have a humble request.  Can anyone make a 50 yard target scaled for 300 yards.  I have a 16" middy with an aimpoint that I would like to zero.  I sort of zeroed mine on the army 25 meter target at 50 yards.  So I'm not too sure about the zero (i.e., i'm not personally satisfied).  Thanks for anyone that can help.

< - Deleted by moderator. - L >

Originally Posted By LegionVI: I have a humble request.  Can anyone make a 50 yard target scaled for 300 yards.  I have a 16" middy with an aimpoint that I would like to zero.  I sort of zeroed mine on the army 25 meter target at 50 yards.  So I'm not too sure about the zero (i.e., i'm not personally satisfied).  Thanks for anyone that can help.

LegionVI,

I can probably help out, but I just need to be sure what it is you want.  Are you just trying to get your Aimpoint zeroed at 50 yards?  If so this is a great target for that.  The blue aiming area appears as being slightly larger than the the 4 MOA dot on most Aimpoints.  The dashed grid measures 0.25", which at 50 yards is one click on the Aimpoints.  If this is what you need I can set-up a link to down-load the target.









Or are you trying to duplicate what a 300 yard target would look like for the distance of 50 yards?  If so the E2 silhouette scaled for 50 yards down-load from above will be very close.  That silhouette is actually is scaled from 300 meters, but it would still look much the same.

Molon

Originally Posted By Harv24: Not to bust anyone's bubble... but me personally...I don't really see this as very hard  using irons or Dots at 25Yds...I believe the term is Marksmanship Masturbation.... Now if you want to challenge yourself.. Try this drill IDPA type Silhouette  with a 8" circle for COM 18yds away Fire 6 rds from standing Drop to one or both knees and fire another 6 rds Speed reload go to prone and fire 6 rds Keep all hits in the 8" circle time.. under 18 secs. Do that until your can do it on command at any time .... That's practical Marksmanship. Flame on......

Anyone can type out some skill test and claim they think the other one is simple. It is just kinda pathetic though to do so since it means absolutely nothing without your bonafide results or your example of the other test and has not much to do with the OPs thread. Wanna get a convo going about your special olympics test then start a new thread.
Some folks I guess like to toot their own horn but don't quite know how to do it.

To the OP nice shooting, nice rifle and nice jacket. Thanks for posting a good idea.

From JER

PS, thanks for the lesson in statistics, but with a BS in engineering, an MBA, and a Six Sigma Black Belt certification I think I can figure out an SD and what it means.

Really need to work on your  "Self Esteem" issues.....

Originally Posted By JER: ..and a Six Sigma Black Belt certification I think I can figure out an SD and what it means.

WOW!  


Teach me Mr. Six Sigma.  

Help us out.

How do you figure SD and what does it mean.

Molon
I want to BZO my Aimpoint for 300 yards, but the range I have is only 50 yards.  If that's the target I need, then I would love a link to the download.  Thanks!

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead: Originally Posted By Harv24: Not to bust anyone's bubble... but me personally...I don't really see this as very hard  using irons or Dots at 25Yds...I believe the term is Marksmanship Masturbation.... Now if you want to challenge yourself.. Try this drill IDPA type Silhouette  with a 8" circle for COM 18yds away Fire 6 rds from standing Drop to one or both knees and fire another 6 rds Speed reload go to prone and fire 6 rds Keep all hits in the 8" circle time.. under 18 secs. Do that until your can do it on command at any time .... That's practical Marksmanship. Flame on...... Anyone can type out some skill test and claim they think the other one is simple. It is just kinda pathetic though to do so since it means absolutely nothing without your bonafide results or your example of the other test and has not much to do with the OPs thread. Wanna get a convo going about your special olympics test then start a new thread. Some folks I guess like to toot their own horn but don't quite know how to do it. To the OP nice shooting, nice rifle and nice jacket. Thanks for posting a good idea.

Thanks for the compliments.  Also, I’ve noticed that if you don’t feed the trolls, they eventually go somewhere else to look for the attention that they never got from their Mommies.

Originally Posted By Harv24: From JER PS, thanks for the lesson in statistics, but with a BS in engineering, an MBA, and a Six Sigma Black Belt certification I think I can figure out an SD and what it means. Really need to work on your  "Self Esteem" issues.....

This would be a clear example of projection; that is, attributing one's own feelings of inadequacy to others.  I’ve noticed a trend in your posts in the technical threads.  Here are just a few quotes from them:  “masturbation”, “penis”, “I ain’t seein’ it”.

You seem to be constantly focusing on your genitals, probably due to a lack of comprehension of what is being discussed by those more mature than yourself.  This is a classic sign of someone suffering from low self-esteem issues, usually due to emotional and psychological immaturity which is often the result of some deep-seated event from your childhood.

While there is no cure per se, there are a variety of medications that can help you to cope.  Seek counseling.

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman: Originally Posted By JER: ..and a Six Sigma Black Belt certification I think I can figure out an SD and what it means. WOW!   Teach me Mr. Six Sigma.   Help us out. How do you figure SD and what does it mean.

Twice now you have expressed a desire for JER to be your “teacher.”  Is this perhaps due to your latent homosexual tendencies?

This is a technical thread about marksmanship skills as espoused by the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site, the U.S. Army, the U.S. Marine Corps and NRA High Power competition.  If you have something positive to contribute, by all means please do.

Otherwise, go piss in your own thread.


Molon

Originally Posted By Molon: This is a technical thread about marksmanship skills as espoused by the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site, the U.S. Army, the U.S. Marine Corps and NRA High Power competition.  If you have something positive to contribute, by all means please do.

No kidding  .  

Let's keep this thread on track, everyone.  It's one of the good ones.

Originally Posted By GunnyG: Wanna do the math and give us a reduced A target  too?

As requested, I present the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target, also known as the "A" target.  This one has been scaled for 25 yards.  Holy Schnike, that aiming black seems small for off-hand shooting!  If you need the target scaled for a different distance, let me know.  Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper.






Here's a close-up of the target.






Here's the link to the .pdf file for download.

Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target

Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none."

I gave these targets a try shooting off-hand from 25 yards with an Aimpoint sighted rifle.  Next, I'll try it with iron sights for comparison.

As mentioned above, I gave the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target a try from 25 yards shooting off-hand with my Old Faithful rifle, hand-loaded 52 Sierra MatchKings and my shooting coat.




Before shooting the off-hand course of fire, I fired a quick, 10-shot control group from 25 yards with the free-float tube resting on a sand bag. Here's a pic of that group.



Here are my three best, 10-shot, off-hand groups on the "A" target from 25 yards.
Next time out, I'll be using iron sights without the shooting coat for comparison.

Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By GunnyG: Wanna do the math and give us a reduced A target  too? As requested, the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target, also known as the "A" target.  This one has been scaled for 25 yards.  Holy Schnike, that aiming black seems small for off-hand shooting!  If you need the target scaled for a different distance, let me know.  Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper. img246.imageshack.us/img246/6994/lettersize200yardslowfiwa4.jpg Here's a close-up of the target. img246.imageshack.us/img246/3408/marinecorps200ydslowfirme9.jpg Here's the link to the .pdf file for download. Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." I gave these targets a try shooting off-hand from 25 yards with an Aimpoint sighted rifle.  Next, I'll try it with iron sights for comparison.

Thank you for the excellent work!!

Molon really nice, it is good to see someone actually promoting marksmanship vice silly pissing contests for attention.

Gives me memories of the Marine Corps rifle range. ready on the left!!? Ready on the right... Allll ready on the firing line.

damn, the reduced for 25 is crazy small.  i thought the ones reduced for 100 were small, at least you can see the rings though.  sucks you guys get to have all the fun, its -25'F outside.  cheers.

Originally Posted By GunnyG: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By GunnyG: Wanna do the math and give us a reduced A target  too? As requested, the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target, also known as the "A" target.  This one has been scaled for 25 yards.  Holy Schnike, that aiming black seems small for off-hand shooting!  If you need the target scaled for a different distance, let me know.  Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper. img246.imageshack.us/img246/6994/lettersize200yardslowfiwa4.jpg Here's a close-up of the target. img246.imageshack.us/img246/3408/marinecorps200ydslowfirme9.jpg Here's the link to the .pdf file for download. Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." I gave these targets a try shooting off-hand from 25 yards with an Aimpoint sighted rifle.  Next, I'll try it with iron sights for comparison. Thank you for the excellent work!!

You're welcome and thank you for the Power Point file.  Hopefully by this time next week I'll have a down-loadable version of the the "Dog" target posted.

Molon

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead: Molon really nice, it is good to see someone actually promoting marksmanship vice silly pissing contests for attention. Gives me memories of the Marine Corps rifle range. ready on the left!!? Ready on the right... Allll ready on the firing line.

Yup, promoting marksmanship with an AR-15 is the idea.

Originally Posted By infsqdldr: damn, the reduced for 25 is crazy small.  i thought the ones reduced for 100 were small, at least you can see the rings though.  sucks you guys get to have all the fun, its -25'F outside.  cheers.

From 25 yards my Mark I eye balls can't even make out the rings.  All I see is that tiny aiming black just daring me to put a bullet hole in it.

It's getting a little chilly here in MI too, (certainly not as cold as where you are though.)  Fortunately there is an indoor 50 yard range only a few miles away.

Run #5


You may recall that for Run #4 I used a Colt M16-A2 barreled upper with A2 iron sights along with IMI M855 ammunition and a web sling to shoot the course of fire on the E2 silhouette target scaled for 50 yards.  For Run #5 of the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site Marksman’s Challenge I used my free-floated 20” Colt HBAR with an Aimpoint ML3 sight for a comparison.  









Likewise, shooting was done from 50 yards with elbows resting on a bench.  For this run I used hand-loaded 52 grain Sierra MatchKings along with my shooting coat and sling.  My results are pictured below.










Here is a side by side pic of my results from Run #4 and Run #5 for comparison.

Originally Posted By Molon: As mentioned above, I gave the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target a try from 25 yards shooting off-hand with my Old Faithful rifle, hand-loaded 52 Sierra MatchKings and my shooting coat. img175.imageshack.us/img175/9572/shootingcoatandrifle01resizedframedmn6.jpg Before shooting the off-hand course of fire, I fired a quick, 10-shot control group from 25 yards with the free-float tube resting on a sand bag. Here's a pic of that group. img246.imageshack.us/img246/8066/offhandcontrolgroup01il1.jpg Here are my three best, 10-shot, off-hand groups on the "A" target from 25 yards. img246.imageshack.us/img246/4520/offhand01bc8.jpg img246.imageshack.us/img246/3164/offhand02xv3.jpg img246.imageshack.us/img246/9568/offhand03xc2.jpg Next time out, I'll be using iron sights without the shooting coat for comparison.

When I read you had done this off hand, I said holy "s" and my jaw dropped.  Buddy I wish that my off hand groups looked like that.  Is there anything I can read that will help me out?  My big problem is range time - family has to come before shooting.  Are there any resources on line that discuss shooting form, etc.  

I’m not sure if this is quite the place for this or not, but the subject was stimulated by this thread.

A thought occurred to me regarding the battle zero, and what it, perhaps, should be.  I have used iron sights from the beginning  and was taught to use a 6 o’clock hold.  The reason for this is so that point blank range can be maximized, and hold-over should not be needed at any reasonable range; don’t hold over—get closer.  Also, I was taught that the battle zero was based on the belt buckle hold, and the point blank range was such that the bullet path did not go over shoulder height.  This looks very much like what that half silhouette challenge target is trying to do.

Scaling the silhouette, I get a height from the bottom of the to the top of the 16" diameter circle as being 24 inches. (Is this the correct height?)  If the maximum ordinate (the highest point in the trajectory) were set to this dimension, there would be two ranges at which the theoretical trajectory would pass through the center of the circle, and two points at which it would pass through the bottom of the circle.  One of each would be nearer to the shooting line than the maximum ordinate, and the other one further.  (See image below.) I don’t know a technical term for these points, but for clarity, I’ll call them Center-Hit Range, and Battle Range.  These each have both a short and long range.

For lack of a better term, I define the Effective Battle Zone as the distance between the Short Battle Range (SBR in the image), and the Long Battle Range.  My guess is that if a target (enemy soldier, etc) were closer than the SBR, then one would naturally hold a bit higher on the chest, than belt buckle height.

When the range is far enough and one has time, then the range can be set on the sight, where the rifle should then be sighed in so that the trajectory winds up just above the front sight post.

Alas, I do not have a ballistic program that works on my system.  The one I downloaded once locks-up when I go to crunch numbers.  Since I have a very slow dial-up connection (typically 5.6 kb/s), downloading such programs takes an inordinate amount of time. So, if someone has one that can calculate maximum ordinates, and ranges at which the trajectory hits given points above the horizontal plane, I would appreciate the following questions answered.  I think it will prove interesting.





First, using typical velocities for AR-15s (20", 16", 14"), and using typical battle rounds (i.e. ballistic coeficients) with expected velocities, what are the ranges in the image below when the maximum ordinate is set to 24" (or corrected number)?

Second, what is the Reduce Target Range (RTR)?  That is, what range can one have a scaled target that has the trajectory pass through the center of the circle?

Third, what sight setting (range on say an A2 sight) that gives that battle range?  That is, what is the range at which the trajectory passes just above the front sight post?

Of course, each load and rifle will vary, but what I am after is a sighting-in method can be adopted for a given set of rifles and ammo (e.g., 20" A-2, with 5.56 NATO 55 gr. FMJ, etc.) that maximizes the effective range without changing sight settings.  

And, I am questioning whether the 25 yd (or the 50 yd) reduced target really achieves this or not.  Is there a better reduced target range, and if so what is it for a given configuration?

Dave.

Originally Posted By ArimoDave: ....And, I am questioning whether the 25 yd (or the 50 yd) reduced target really achieves this or not.  Is there a better reduced target range, and if so what is it for a given configuration? Dave.

When shooting at a 12" bull at 200 yds, the shooter wants to place all of his shots within a 6 minute of angle circle.

Lacking 200 yds to shoot on, using a target that subtends to the same 6 minutes of angle (i.e., 6 moa = a 3 inch bull at 50 yds = a 1.5" bull at 25 yds) will require the shooter to achieve the same degree of precision.

So, the answer is no. It wouldn't replace the zeroing the rifle for a longer known distance, although if you know the ballistics of the round you are using, you could adjust your sights to compensate for the inches of drop at a given distance, and then I  would verify it by firing at that desired distance.

Originally Posted By IClaudius: Originally Posted By Molon: As mentioned above, I gave the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target a try from 25 yards shooting off-hand with my Old Faithful rifle, hand-loaded 52 Sierra MatchKings and my shooting coat. img175.imageshack.us/img175/9572/shootingcoatandrifle01resizedframedmn6.jpg Before shooting the off-hand course of fire, I fired a quick, 10-shot control group from 25 yards with the free-float tube resting on a sand bag. Here's a pic of that group. img246.imageshack.us/img246/8066/offhandcontrolgroup01il1.jpg Here are my three best, 10-shot, off-hand groups on the "A" target from 25 yards. img246.imageshack.us/img246/4520/offhand01bc8.jpg img246.imageshack.us/img246/3164/offhand02xv3.jpg img246.imageshack.us/img246/9568/offhand03xc2.jpg Next time out, I'll be using iron sights without the shooting coat for comparison. When I read you had done this off hand, I said holy "s" and my jaw dropped.  Buddy I wish that my off hand groups looked like that.  Is there anything I can read that will help me out?  My big problem is range time - family has to come before shooting.  Are there any resources on line that discuss shooting form, etc.

Keep in mind those groups were obtained using a shooting coat and an Aimpoint sight and that top notch High Power shooters do even better.  The groups won't be that tight when I switch to iron sights without the coat.

A good source of fundamental marksmanship information is the DVD series "Marine Corps Marksmanship."  You can watch it a little at a time, as time permits.  The production quality is not the greatest, but the information contained in it is excellent.

DVD link

Another good source for information on basic marksmanship skills is the DVD series from the Civilian Marksmanship Program, "Mind Over Matter; High Power Rifle Competition".  The series is geared towards service rifle shooters, but there is still some good fundamental information to be gleaned from watching it even if you don't have all the High Power gear.  


DVD link


These DVD series are neither high-speed-low-drag nor tacticool, but they are full of useful information on the fundamentals of marksmanship and are as good of a place as any to start.


A good practice to help build your skills if you are not already doing it, is dry firing.  I try to get to the range at least 2 times per week for live fire, but I always dry fire several times a week.  10 minutes here, 10 minutes there can really help.

Originally Posted By LegionVI: Molon I want to BZO my Aimpoint for 300 yards, but the range I have is only 50 yards.  If that's the target I need, then I would love a link to the download.  Thanks!

Got it.  You simply want to zero your Aimpoint for 300 yards, but you can only set your targets out at 50 yards.

An Aimpoint in an ARMS mount with the cantelever spacer puts the height of the sight above the bore at about 2.8".  I've chronographed IMI M855 from a 16" barrel that had a muzzle velocity of about 2890 fps.  Using these specifications you need to zero your Aimpoint so that your groups are centered about 0.87" high at 50 yards in order to obtain a 300 yard zero.

With your 300 yard zero your rounds are going to strike almost 5" high at about 175 yards.  You might want to consider using the Improved Battelsight Zero, in which you simply zero your Aimpoint dead-on at 50 yards.  With this zero, the highest bullet strike throughout the trajectory will only be a little over 2" high at about 150 yards.

Here is a graph of the two different trajectories for comparison:  the 300 yard zero in red and the Improved Battlesight Zero in green.

Molon,

Thanks for the great thread!  I tried the 25-meter sillhouette, now I think I'll give the reduced-for-25-yard target a try.  Out of curiosity, does anyone know what a "passing" score is for the reduced target?  I'm trying to get a feel for how well (or bad!) I am shooting compared to any standards.

Thanks!

Originally Posted By NotMrWizard: Molon, Thanks for the great thread!  I tried the 25-meter sillhouette, now I think I'll give the reduced-for-25-yard target a try.  Out of curiosity, does anyone know what a "passing" score is for the reduced target?  I'm trying to get a feel for how well (or bad!) I am shooting compared to any standards. Thanks!

thats whats difficult.  with the 100yd reduced, you can still see the scoring rings.  with the 25yd; the x ring would be .31", and the 10 ring .78".  the rest of the aiming black a 9.  my measurements could be off, i just went off a sr-1 that may not be printed to proper size.

eta, printed the 25yd and the aiming black was 1.5".  the aiming black on my sr-1 is 6", so should be close.

the circle stencil thing i have only has .75", but has .31".  itll look like this.