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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:48:54 AM EDT
[#1]
You can get them both at Brownell's
The springs are 3 to a package for something like 9 or 12 dollars and the black buffers are a bag of 10 for 10 or 12 dollars. I just did this to my rifles. I don't use the rubber "O" or "D" ring. The extra power springs should do the job! |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:50:15 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:54:21 AM EDT
[#3]
I use Wolff springs without an insert and have no problems. The insert is just a designator of spring strength and do nothing for function, AFAIK. You don't need anything more than a Wolff spring. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:54:27 AM EDT
[#4]
Wolff is wrong. There is no difference between the extractor inserts regardless of color. They are all the same. Every time a new extractor spring is introduced, it is packed with a new color insert. The color is used so military armorers can tell the difference in spring tensions.
EDIT: Mongo beat me by 7 seconds! 
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:55:21 AM EDT
[#5]
Typing at the same time. 
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:58:27 AM EDT
[#6]
Mongo, With all due respect: I'm just a newb, and you certainly have more experience than I, but Wolff recommends using an insert. I do agree that the color generally is not an indicator of durometer though. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 7:08:28 AM EDT
[#7]
Listen to M4, he went through the Colt armorer's course. The insert does nothing for function. It doesn't aid the spring to do anything. It is an indicator of the spring strength, not the insert strength. In fact the insert doesn't even fit properly in a Wolff spring. It kept falling out when I tried to put one in. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 8:16:28 AM EDT
[#8]
I read someplace the rubber buffer had something to to with preventing extactor bouncing, and that was why it was used with the spring.
Where I read this I can not say... but I remember reading that description and that makes sense as to why the little black (or whatever color) item is called a buffer. Been to a number of armorer courses... over the last 28+ years... but yet to go to an "official" AR15/M16 armorers course. Maybe someday. Anyway... I replaced 9 extractor springs with the Wolf extra power spring using the black rubber buffers, all from Brownell's. I did put a D-fender around the spring on my son's Oly Arm PCR00, did not change that spring to a wolf... and it did not come from the factory with a buffer. I also put a new buffer in that extractor using the spring taken out of a new RRA bolt. The Oly spring looked pretty lame... though it always worked. When they say extra power spring on the Wolf package... that does not seem to be an exaggeration! Reassembly by the time I got to the last bolt was making my fingers sore from depressing the extractor to allign and replace the pin! I had one that did not want to seat and ended up putting a different extractor on that bolt before I could get the pin in. That same unit also had a problem before switching to a different extractor of holding the cartridge case so tightly in the bolt face, the ejector spring would not push it off the bolt face. The tension of the wolf spring in combination with that particular extractor would hold a cartridge tight in the bolt face until it was pulled off the bolt face by hand. I suggest after replacing using a wolf or any extra power spring, to seat a cartridge to the bolt to be sure the ejector can push it off. I suspect in my case the extractor was at max spec or out of spec. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 9:11:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Like I said, you guys have more experience than I... 
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Posted: 7/3/2005 10:06:25 AM EDT
[#10]
The inserts are different. The blacks ones are stiffer. They also do perform a function.
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Posted: 7/3/2005 10:14:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Here is a copy of an email (and response) that I sent to Bushmaster about the exact thing you're asking: We use a heavy duty four coil machinegun extractor spring in all of our extractors. We use the blue inserts which are the same except for color than the black, white, red or orange inserts. The black inserts were used by one manufacturer only to denote that the extractor spring used is a four coil spring instead of the commercial three coil extractor springs that they were using. Thank you, Jim Eden, Tech Support -----Original Message----- From: Administrator Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:09 PM To: TSEmail Subject: Extraction question for 11.5 barrel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FirstName: LastName: Title: Organization: WorkPhone: Email: RMA: Product: Extraction question for 11.5 barrel Remote Name: Remote User: Question I have heard that the short barrel carbines can potentially have extraction problems due to the round being under pressure for a shorter amount of time, especially during rapid fire. I believe that this is called "extractor bounce". It has been recommended that a stronger extractor spring, such as the one offered by Wolff, replace the stock spring to keep a tighter grip on the cartridge rim. A black extractor spring insert is recommended for use with the stronger spring. What is Bushmaster's view on this? I have recently purchased one your "CAR-15" rifles, with the 11.5" barrel and 5.5" flash supressor. I have'nt shot the carbine yet, but saw that it has the standard blue extractor insert and am concerned about having a potential extraction problem. Have you had many problems with the 11.5" guns having extraction problems, or do you ship the shorter barrel guns with extra power extractor springs already in place because of the shorter barrel? Does Bushmaster offer the black extractor spring inserts for purchase, in case of problems? Thank you for your time. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 10:31:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Care to explain? Because everything else points to the contrary. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 11:41:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Yep. All that I have heard and read, not all here, is contary also. Even my experience, having a black, red, white and blue insert in front of me right now, tells me that there isn't enough significant difference to affect function. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 1:46:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Just compare the stiffness of the two it is easy to see the difference. The guy from SAW tried to explain it once but most cared not to listen. There are differences in springs and inserts.
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Posted: 7/3/2005 2:38:58 PM EDT
[#15]
The SAW guy is a real piece of work, who wants the world to believe he knows more than everybody else. HE DOESN'T! Colt says the black inserts are the same as the blue, and I e mailed Wolfe to this effect well over a year ago---advising them to contact Colt for confirmation if they didn't believe me. They're apparently eith too lazy, or too uncaring, to make the change in their listing for the springs. Now, you can either believe Colt, who makes the damn things, or Mr SAW. BTW, there was one insert that is softer than the others. The original white inserts were softer, and the blue ones were so colored to ID them as stiffer, when they first came out. This historical fact led a lot of us, me included, to assume that the black ones were indeed stiffer than the blue. But Colt had pulled one of their classic inconsistencies. This time, the change in color denoted a different spring, NOT a stiffer insert. Colt Patent Firearms strikes again 
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Posted: 7/3/2005 2:56:29 PM EDT
[#16]
I have compared both of the Colt extractor springs and the coil count and wire diameter is the same on the rifle and carbine springs I have. The only difference in mine is the stiffer insert. It is easy to feel the difference in stiffness between the black and the blue inserts.
If you believe that there is no difference in the inserts then please explain the difference in the springs that would need to be coded for identification. Also why are the heavy springs Colt has colored green instead fo just a different color insert?
Let me help you with a little info on springs.
Notice the last basic thing in spring design. The length of the extractor spring is limited to the set distance from the design. More coils not good. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:27:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Are you serious? The springs are coded for identification because the stronger springs (used in carbines, like the M4) are stiffer (meaning they have more coils). Odds are, an armorer installing extractor springs would appreciate a color coded system as to what spring to use versus actually counting the coils on each individual spring. As for the green inserts, just another color to denote a different spring. If your information rests solely on "the SAW guy", then you need to do some more research. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:41:35 PM EDT
[#18]
So, a question is left from my original posting that I'm not sure about.
I'm gong to add the Wolff springs to all my bolts, but:: Should I buy the extractor inserts or just use a D-Fender/O ring? What exactly is the diff between the insert and o ring? Which is better with the Wolff? I'm using these in 3 11' uppers on my M16, one being a 7.62x39 that always needs a little more tweaking to get it perfect. i think the extractor will help a ton. ONE final question? I'm running an AAC buffer w/original CAR spring with the 7.62x39. Would a H carrier work better since it's heavier? and would tha screw up the balance with a 5.56 upper? I like the soft spring and AAC with 5.56, but have to change them around on the range depending on upper. Thanks, so far there's been a ton of good info here. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:48:12 PM EDT
[#19]
As for the extractor, you might as well try all three things, the Wolff spring, the insert, and the Crane o-ring. Odds are you will be ok. I personally use a Wolff spring with a Crane o-ring. I have never had any extraction issues.
As for the buffer, using a "H" or "H2" buffer should not affect the performance of the gun per say. But as always, YMMV as your rifle may not like the heavier buffers. Another option is a stiffer Wolff carbine action spring. Any of those options will slow your recoil down and should allow for a better extraction (as the slowing of the action allows more time for the casing to be extracted and it will be less violent). Try out as many options as you can and find what works and feels the best to you. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:51:04 PM EDT
[#20]
I use the Wolff spring only. It is plenty stiff by itself. No use complicating the issue. If I have problems, I know exactly where to look. So far, no problems.
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Posted: 7/3/2005 7:16:33 PM EDT
[#21]
v188,
I am running a factory 16" Colt 7.62x39mm M4 upper on a Colt M16A2 lower. I did change to the Wolff extractor spring and a black insert. It functions fine with any of the Colt buffers I have tried: standard rifle buffer in A2 stock, carbine, H, H2, H3, & 3 piece buffer. The weight of the buffer will inversely affect the cyclic rate of the weapon. I have no experience with the AAC buffer. In 5.56mm, the Wolff extractor springs with black extractor insert work in SA & FA on all Colt & Bushmaster barrel lengths I have: 10.25, 11.5, 14.5, 16, 20, & 24 inch & with any buffer weight listed above. Good luck, Carey |
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Posted: 7/6/2005 11:35:30 PM EDT
[#22]
+1. I run Wolff springs only, even in my M16 with 11.5" uppers. For a while I tried using crane o-rings or D-Fender rings in addition to the Wolff spring, but all it did was make my bolt not close on the first round on occasion. I also noticed a friend was trying to cure his problems by using both and while it improved his extraction, for a while, it made the extractor brutal on the case head, badly marring the case heads, wearing his extractor, and ending in ripped case heads (he needed to address his problem another way, I think he had a tight chamber). I'll use an o-ring device if I ever find I need it, but not until then. The extractor spring inserts are the same, and if there are different, the difference is so infintesimal that it wouldn't make a rats ass difference. I challenge someone to find a case where the spring insert of a specific color made any difference whatsoever, save for the old white ones which are probably softer now due to age.
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Posted: 7/7/2005 6:50:45 AM EDT
[#23]
I am interested USGI extractor springs/inserts from a historical perspective. Am going to put together a pic ID on these, and have some notes put together (would have it done by now, but lost my red buffer). WpnsMan was a great help on this topic here:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=213973&page=4 Here is what I got so far: Extactor springs are the same for USGI rifles/Carbines other then the 60's springs, and the new M4 gold spring. early 1960's long spring, no buffer (supposed to be two variation, have only found one): 4.0 lbs White buffer, used on the M16/M16A1 starting by 1971 or so: 3.0 lbs Red buffer used on the late M16/M16A1: 3.5 lbs Blue buffer used on the M16A2 and early M4: 2.25 lbs 2.5 lbs Black buffer used on mid production M4's, and the M16A4: Can not find my data. Black buffer, with gold spring as used on late M4's: could not get a good reading, kinda stiff ya know, well over 5.0 lbs These are not real scientific, too many variables, and too small a sample. Suppose I should post a new thread up to subject this data to "peer review". There is some debate in regards to when the blue buffer was introduced. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 6:58:41 AM EDT
[#24]
Ekie,
Good stuff. Is the gold spring the same as or different from the 5-coil spring supposedly installed in the CQBR along with the O-ring and McFarland gas ring at Crane? |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 7:18:37 AM EDT
[#25]
My understanding is that the the SOPMOD bolt upgrade kit was a Band-Aid for the old M4A1 extractor set up, that is the black buffer and silver spring. You see due to the location of the gas port on the M4/A1 some of them had extraction problems (had one myself). Colt's had developed the specific gold spring and black buffer for the M4/A1 to address this, but the Big Army did not want to add another part to the system. So SOPMOD came out with that doughnut to fix it. Since then Big Army has approved Colt's gold spring set up, and M4/A1's are now delivered with them, and I would not think the SOPMOD kit is needed on these. BTW, I have a SOPMOD doughnut, and the old black buffer silver spring set up in my M4A1 clone, need to do some testing on exactor strength on that too. |
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Posted: 7/7/2005 3:28:22 PM EDT
[#26]
I looked at my stock RRA extractor spring and black insert. The insert seems to prevent the extractor from bottoming out the spring, so it plays a role in the 3 coil springs.
The Wolff XP extractor spring I have is a 4-coil spring, but it isn't much stiffer than the stock spring. I can still remove/insert the pin with 1 hand with the other hand "clasping" the extractor to relieve tension. |
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Posted: 7/15/2005 9:59:19 AM EDT
[#27]
There are so many dumb asses just sure that they are right on this subject that it's humorous.
I tend to believe KEN. He may be a dick, but I've never met anyone who knew more about COLT. It's possible that the RED, BLUE, and BLACK inserts from some of the knock off companies are all the same. Who knows? |
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Posted: 7/15/2005 10:10:01 AM EDT
[#28]
The insert, regardless of what color, is so small in size, in comparison to the spring and the tension it applies, that any force added by the insert is little to none. It may add some limited cushioning, but I doubt it is much. Has anybody tried to measure tension with and without an insert installed - of any color? I'd be curious to see the results. Somebody with a trigger pull measuring gage may be able to do this.
Regardless of all this BS, the Wolff spring, by itself, solves all problems without having to worry about some useless insert and at $5 each, it's alot more economical than paying for some overpriced Colt part. A damn 10 cent o-ring will do on most cases, also. YMMV. If you really want it to work, get a Wolff spring, a black insert, a "Crane" O-ring and a Defender and put them all in. 
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Posted: 7/15/2005 1:57:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Why would a stiffer insert not work but adding a rubber o ring work? Adding stiffness on the outside of the spring is better than being on the inside? |
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Posted: 7/15/2005 2:31:58 PM EDT
[#30]
I've been using the Dring in my bolts and have had no problem in conjuction with the 4 coil spring with black insert. No new information, but I can confirm that they work excellent.
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Posted: 7/16/2005 12:33:18 PM EDT
[#31]
This dopey thread got me curious. So I pulled all five of my extractors out, and all but one had the black insert.
Two have extractor springs that are significantly "shorter" than the other three? WTF is all of that nonsense? Are the short springs meant for full sized weapons and the Bigger springs Carbean? |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 1:21:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Think about the huge surface area difference between the two. If the stiffness of the o-ring and the insert are the same or close, which I think they are, the o-ring will provide a larger resistance due to a much larger surface area. |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 7:01:04 PM EDT
[#33]
The insert is thicker and supported on the outside by the spring.
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Posted: 7/16/2005 9:34:15 PM EDT
[#34]
When I first got my M16, I was having many extraction failures. I didn't know much so I brought it to my local guy and we saw that there was no spring whatsoever (and no insert). It was amazing it would extract at all, considering. My guy, local gun store dude and off hand smith then proceeded to MAKE me a spring as he had no spares, he found a close match, cut, and ground it. I have no idea how it compared to a normal extractor spring.
At any rate, it was years later when I started to get educated on AR15.com that I then realized there was supposed to be the plastic insert in there as well. I never had one in there until then. I still like HD springs like the Wolff rather than an o-ring, the springs can't melt... |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 10:30:41 PM EDT
[#35]
If this entire thread makes you see bunnies with pancakes on their heads, reread this post until the pancakes finally go away. Wolff spring Any color insert #60 Oring from Lowes- .08¢ each. Your extraction problems will be solved. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 12:53:15 AM EDT
[#36]
The new M4 spring is copper plated and it's about 8.5 lbs almost fully compressed.
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Posted: 7/18/2005 2:17:50 AM EDT
[#37]
I've never had extraction issues with the modified list above. YMMV. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 12:49:35 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 7/18/2005 12:59:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Oh, there you go, get the tirds from the GD involved. They'll know for sure what's what. 
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Posted: 7/18/2005 2:30:42 PM EDT
[#40]
It can't get any worse than this discussion!
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Posted: 7/18/2005 2:42:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Wanna bet. 
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Posted: 7/18/2005 3:35:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Well I put the Wolff springs in my 7.62x39 shorty upper with my M16, and it's almost completely solved an misfunctioning problems. I'm quite happy. I replaced all my uppers with the Wolff springs. Now I have NO inserts in any of my bolts.
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