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Posted: 4/23/2005 11:26:46 AM EDT
I don't know if this has been posted before.
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Posted: 4/23/2005 12:07:57 PM EDT
[#1]
That's a great pic!!! Im building a XM-177E2 as we speak and seeing those TRUE AMERICAN HEROES IS always a privleadge. Please excuse my spelling. Thanks for the cool pic.
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Posted: 4/23/2005 12:08:33 PM EDT
[#2]
cool stuff
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:05:31 PM EDT
[#3]
I see what appears to be a couple XM177E1's in there as well.
Sammy
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:13:03 PM EDT
[#4]
I have to show this picture to my friend. His dad was a Son Tay Raider.
TAG |
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:19:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Wow. That's the most 177s I've ever seen in one place before.
Way to go. Great pic. 
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:36:01 PM EDT
[#6]
IVE GOT ONE ALMOST DONE .i cant wait. then ill have eight black sticks
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:40:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Dick Meadows:
 And Elliott "Bud" Sydnor was the commander of the ground forces upon insertion. He was a graduate of the ROTC program at Western Kentucky University and was recently inducted in to the ROTC Hall of Fame. WKU has turned out a disproportionate number of graduates who end up in SOCOM or other high-speed low-drag units. The XMs were sporting SinglePoint Nite sights. Some had custom made carry-handle sight mounts, others were just taped down with electrical tape or duct tape. uxb |
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:48:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Schweet pics!!
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:52:32 PM EDT
[#9]
I'm a WKU Alumni. Are you still in BG?
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:55:06 PM EDT
[#10]
I would recommend the following book:
SOG, A Photo History of the Secret War  More XMs than you can shake a stick at. Lots of truly amazing stories of true heroes. |
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:58:10 PM EDT
[#11]
I work in BG, but live between Franklin, KY and BG, KY. Was in their ROTC program 1977-1980, and graduated Air Assault, Airborne School, and the JFK Special Warfare Center. Then had a stint in Central America via way of Lebanon first. |
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Posted: 4/23/2005 5:59:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Dick Meadows is a legend. One big question is.......THEY HAD DOT SIGHTS ON THE RAID!!??  Please give more details. |
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Posted: 4/23/2005 6:00:37 PM EDT
[#13]
nt
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Posted: 4/23/2005 6:34:03 PM EDT
[#14]
tag
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Posted: 4/23/2005 6:42:47 PM EDT
[#15]
man, i would love an XM177E2 look-alike...how long are those flashiders? (moderators?) if they're 5"+ would it be possible to get an A1 upper w/ 11" barrel and have one welded on? i heard somewhere that since those lower the sound a little bit, they're considered sound suppressors. does anyone make just regular flashiders that dont lower the report?
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Posted: 4/23/2005 6:49:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Thet are 4.3" in length, and mil-spec non-NFA moderators are manufactured by WA Tom at Total Silence Inc. I plan to get one when my barrel is chooped and gas port enlarged to 0.093".
Total Silence, Inc. is listed in the Industry Forum and here is a pic of the mil-spec Non-NFA moderator: 
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Posted: 4/23/2005 6:52:03 PM EDT
[#17]
There are a number of 5.5" FS copies that are legal and available. There is one that even screws on a 16" bbl and covers the barrel back by 5.5" to keep a 16" length and not have to permanently attach it. These guys specialize: www.totalsilenceinc.com |
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Posted: 4/23/2005 7:23:31 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 4/23/2005 7:29:14 PM EDT
[#19]
I dont know who made them but they did have a red dot sight to improve theri chances at hitting at night in the dark on the raid,That book on SOG missions shows where the Xm177 stopped an AK round at the lower extension at the receiver where the nut is.
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Posted: 4/23/2005 11:20:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Notice: No body armor, ya wusses.
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Posted: 4/24/2005 2:02:50 AM EDT
[#21]
Those guys were pretty hardcore.
Their NVG consists of only red tinted goggles. |
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Posted: 4/24/2005 2:20:54 AM EDT
[#22]
never saw that photo before.
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Posted: 4/24/2005 5:45:30 PM EDT
[#23]
I make a clone of the XM177E2
 The Single Point red dot sight system was made in England in the late 1960's/early 1970's...it's basically an early version of the Trijicon O.E.G gunsite.......I'll try and snap some pic's of the one on my XM177E2 clone and post them if I have time later this week. |
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Posted: 4/24/2005 10:12:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Who makes these? I'd like to see one, because it sounds like a good way to make my 16" |
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Posted: 4/25/2005 10:28:05 AM EDT
[#25]
Bushmaster makes the slip-overs for both light [A1] and heavier [A2} barrels. They also make a faux XM177 for short barrels that is not a sound moderator. All for around $15-$16 each. I would suggest that you get the A2 slip-over even for an ultralight barrel because they all add several ounces to the barrel. The A2 slip-over has less weight. I use their faux 4 1/2" XM 177 CAR 15 FS on my 10.25" Title 2. But really, ever since I saw pictures of Seal Team One in Vietnam with standard A1 birdcages on their 10.5" CARs, I have preferred that "stubby look." It's a lot lighter weight, and looks even more ultra cool than the 4 1/2" moderators, in my personal opinion. |
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Posted: 4/25/2005 2:25:37 PM EDT
[#26]
The first pic is interesting. It appears that there are at least two rifles that have an 11.5 inch barrel on an upper receiver without the forward assist (the Airforce version of the XM177E2 - GAU-5A/A). I've never heard of this model being "issue" to Army special forces. Maybe they were XM177s that had been upgraded to the 11.5 inch barrel? Or, maybe they were transition models that happen to be available at the time?
Dan |
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Posted: 4/25/2005 2:44:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Very cool pics, thanks!
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Posted: 4/25/2005 7:29:02 PM EDT
[#28]
www.totalsilenceinc.com manufactures the most accurate XM177 moderator available. If you are looking to install an accurate replica on your rifle while retaining the shortest NON-NFA length, Total Silence Inc can permanently attach a 12.5" barrel (1" over the original XM177E2 length) to their XM177E2 moderator with grenade ring and you will have the shortest NON-NFA and most accurately built replica XM177E2 available.
Hope this info helps. Sammy
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Posted: 4/25/2005 8:05:47 PM EDT
[#29]
what's SON TAY?
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Posted: 4/25/2005 8:34:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Son Tay (correct spelling?) was a notoriously brutal POW camp located in North Vietnam. So many high level flight officers shot down over Vietnam were held there that a special forces raid was conducted to rescue as many of these officers as possible from the camp. This raid included purposely crash landing a helicopter full of operators in the courtyard of the camp complex, ensuring operators would be literally inside the camp before the North Vietnamese knew what hit them. As it went, however, all the prisoners in the camp had been moved a few days before the raid actually took place, so although the raid was highly successful and the North Vietnamese took heavy casualties, no prisoners were rescued.
Wont see shit like that anymore. Imagine the guys that voluntered to be in the crash landed chopper!! Brave as all hell. |
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Posted: 4/25/2005 9:43:47 PM EDT
[#31]
I think you still see that type of men in our Armed Forces today there guy 
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Posted: 4/26/2005 7:51:32 AM EDT
[#32]
Thanks GrahamD
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Posted: 4/26/2005 9:06:47 AM EDT
[#33]
The purpose for the origional 4 1/2"moderator was to provide enough back pressure for the XM177 to cycle reliably. It's design had the effect of reducing the noise level, ever so slightly. If I remember correctly, the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact argued that soldiers equipped with the "silenced" XM177 could be shot as spies or assassins if they were captured. The pre-M4 fix was to equip the XM177 with a 14.5" pencil barrel. I remember seeing Rangers at Ft Lewis equipped with the the A1 style carbine with the longer barrel and A1 flash hider. I don't recall what the weapon was designated.
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Posted: 4/26/2005 9:44:23 AM EDT
[#34]
About four weeks ago I was in a book store flipping through a book of 'Special Forces'. On the first page in the chapter about Rangers there was a color photo of a Ranger with a XM-177E2 type with a 14.5" barrel during training at some fort (I don't recall where). Photo was from the late 80's IIRC. The book was kinda cheesy (looked like it was written for kids/teenagers) but it had some nice photos (like the one with the Ranger). |
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Posted: 4/26/2005 10:06:54 AM EDT
[#35]
The picture I have in mind comes fom an old Guns and Ammo annual entitled Assault Rifles and was published in Fall of 1991. It had a picture of Seal Team One getting ready to leave out on a mission, two of the guys were holding Stoners, the other guy had a 10" CAR 15 with an A1 birdcage on it. He also had two 20 round mags jungle taped together. The A1 looked as if it were almost screwed right into the front sight post. It was so cool looking because it was so unorthodox looking. One of the Stoners had the big box-drum in the magazine well.
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Posted: 4/26/2005 5:07:46 PM EDT
[#36]
The firearm was designated the Colt M16A1 Carbine (Colt 653). It's intended purpose was to have the overall barrel length of the XM177 series while obiding by the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 which prevented the exportation of sound-suppressors. While the XM177 moderator did not "silence" the sound per se, it brought the muzzle report down to that of a standard M16 rifle which prevented the enemy from determining there were Special Forces in the area.
Sammy
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Posted: 4/26/2005 5:58:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Those XM177s accounted for alot of communist Chinese dead(yes, Chinese) at Son Tay.
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Posted: 4/26/2005 6:07:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Great pic
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Posted: 5/5/2005 7:25:25 PM EDT
[#39]
I have been a SOG Historian for over 20+ years now and have a large collection of books, equipment, and info (other sources) on SOG. If anybody is interested, I will try and post some pictures of my collection(specifically equipment and INERT ordnance) that they used. In the mean time those of you who have been bitten by the SOG bug and have any questions about them you can go ahead and e-mail me or ask them here on this thread. If I don't have the answer(s) I usually can get them thru some contacts. In the mean time here are two of the best web sites dealing with SOG there is and a great way to start:
www.onetao.com This has some great pictures of Plaster and especially SSgt "Doug" Miller who won the CMH while in Laos with RT Vermont). www.macvsog.org Mr. Noe has done a tremendous job with this site and it comes HIGHLY reccommended. Spend a quite afternoon and just read the stories! You won't be disapointed!) Playing "Run thru the Jungle" By CCR while reading the articles and looking at the pictures is highly reccommended too! 
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Posted: 5/5/2005 7:33:57 PM EDT
[#40]
So are these sound moderators restricted under the NFA?
Cool photos. |
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Posted: 5/5/2005 7:34:28 PM EDT
[#41]
More info please. Thanks |
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Posted: 5/6/2005 2:42:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Here is the only pic I have. Is from 1986 
YES. BATF classifies them as suppressors. Here is a pic of the inside of the moderator. You can see the baffels.  |
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Posted: 5/6/2005 3:53:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Those are some great pics, and some good info to boot . . . .
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Posted: 5/6/2005 7:00:53 AM EDT
[#44]
BINGO! That is the picture I saw in the book I mentioned. Edited to Add: Ok looks like someone changed the photos from Hunt101 - it was a photo of a Ranger with a 14.5" pencil barrel before the beat-up pickup showed up. |
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Posted: 5/6/2005 7:39:07 AM EDT
[#45]
One thing to add, although the prisoners had been moved a few days earlier, the North Vietnamese were quite scared a second raid would be launched and subsequently started treating the POWs better in comparison to the way they were treated pre-Son Tay raid. Those guys embody the true warrior spirit, and will continue to provide a model for the selfless devotion between fellow American servicemen for the rest of time. |
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Posted: 5/6/2005 7:59:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Col. Charlie Beckwith mentions in "Delta Force" that the Son Tay force had trained SO WELL that they literally OVERTRAINED for the mission. This seems a bit odd BUT his reasoning was that they went over the raid SO many times and had it down SO well that if they had just performed the mission after a couple of times of "getting it right" they would have been able to save many POW's because they would have performed the raid when POW's were still present. An interesting observation.
These men were the cream of the crop....amazing men in an amazing and bizzare conflict. If any of you get the chance, go the the Infantry Museum on Main Post at Fort Benning, GA. and check out the MOH Winners section of the museum. It'll send shivers down your spine and bring tears to your eyes. |
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Posted: 5/6/2005 12:45:18 PM EDT
[#47]
I was in 1st Bn., 75th Inf from '83 to '85, before the 'tree suit' was worn by the rangers, and the black beret still meant something. In B Company, and the rest of battalion as I remember, the only ones to carry the shorty '16s were weapons platoon, as they had mortars and 90mm recoiless rifles and such to hump (the ranger on the right of the picture is carrying one).. Everyone else had M16A1s, sometimes MP5SDs or shotguns, as mission dictated. You can see two 1st batt scrolls on this rangers shoulders, so this is post grenada. 2nd batt had a different looking scroll, and there was no third batt or regiment until '85 or so, when the 'new' scrolls came online. So this picture dates somewhere between '83 and '85. Also interesting in the picture is the headgear (PC= Patrol Cap) the three rangers are wearing. The two in the back have darker covers, made of heavy material that didn't 'roll' right. There was no issue headgear made of light weight rip stop fabric, like the guy in front is wearing. The only place to get one was to take an old blouse to Ranger Joes or ARCO and have it custom made; the guy in front obviously did, while the guys in back probably had not been to Ranger School yet. It's official: I'm old. |
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Posted: 5/6/2005 12:48:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Not sure where the info on the "moderator" came from in regards to helping the weapon cycle.
The Moderator provided three purposes: 1) It suppressed the sound down to more bearable levels. 2) It served as a "Flash Supressor". 3) It gave the SF trooper the ability to launch rifle grenades. Yes, this was done in Vietnam by SOG. |
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Posted: 7/3/2005 6:56:14 AM EDT
[#49]
Anyone want to take over hosting for the first pic?
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Posted: 7/3/2005 9:20:14 AM EDT
[#50]
OODA-Loop. I'll host it. IM sent with new link. Just edit your original post and add the link attached. It's also been color corrected.
uxb |
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