User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 10:32:38 AM EDT
Well, well, well, seems that the ATFE actually does answer letters once in a while, and that my contact at the Louisville, KY ATFE branch, Supervisor Mary Jane Humphrey DOES know what she is talking about.
I just received this letter from the ATFE regarding the use of AR lowers in pistol builds and the use of CAR buffer tubes on those builds:  You can read it as well as I, CAR buffer tubes are OK, and as long as you make sure the lower left the maker NOT AS A RIFLE but ONLY as a never assembled lower you are AOK to proceed. If you want a letter from the maker saying that go for it, but Ms. Humphrey told me it is not needed, only that the stripped lower be sold to you as that, and marked such on the 4473 as only a stripped lower. If it were ever called into question the maker could always verify that the lower was sold as stripped, and not as a completed rifle. Notice it says the 4473 must not be marked as a RIFLE, it says nothing about it being marked as a PISTOL, so again, Ms. Humphrey was correct, have it sold and marked on the 4473 as a "stripped lower." So all of you paying more for lowers sold as pistol lowers, well, it doesn't hurt I suppose, but it is NOT necessary. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 10:48:12 AM EDT
[#1]
That's good to know. Thanks
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 10:53:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for finally clearing this up. There has been so much wrong and false info on this that its amazining.
YOU "DA MAN" |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 10:58:57 AM EDT
[#3]
just a word of caution given her response, she says you can use either tube, but if you read the line 2 of Para 3 possession of a buttstock that fits the buffer tube you installed means they may want to prosecute for non-NFA SBR.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 11:14:44 AM EDT
[#4]
I kind of want one because getting a class-III for an SBR is a pain in the ass were I live.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 11:18:28 AM EDT
[#5]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 11:53:53 AM EDT
[#6]
No, it says COULD, not WOULD, constitute a SBR. So, you don't have the piece that goes on the CAR buffter tube that would complete it as a stock, end of problem. Also, if you did have the piece that goes on it, so long as you also owned a 16 inch or longer upper, you would be OK the same as if you own a TC Contender or Encore PISTOL with a carbine rifle kit which would consist of a butt stock AND a barrel of 16 inches or longer. Recall that it is a long established fact that one can convert a pistol to a rifle (and back to a pistol) and have the parts to do so as long as you do not ever put the rifle stock on with the pistol barrel. Again, ala Thompson Center Contender and Encore rulings. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 11:59:28 AM EDT
[#7]
What system do you like better? Olympic no buffer or with buffer.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 12:21:56 PM EDT
[#8]
I have not tried the no buffer system. Reading all the posts, past and present, about all the people having trouble with the Model 1 pistol tube and spring, no buffer, I sure did not want to go that route. Regarding the Olympic non-buffer/spring system, if it works I would use that, but I have not seen much written about that system to know if it is reliable in a pistol or not. I do know that my pistol AR with the CAR buffer tube, spring, and buffer runs like a scalded "Kitty Kat" and does not need any adjusting to go from one bullet or load to another. CMMG built my Kitty Kat upper and that thing really burns the ammo.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 12:28:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Is there a happy switch on that thing?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 12:40:41 PM EDT
[#10]
can an AR pistol have a handguard?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 12:43:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Yes, but not a VFG. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 2:40:07 PM EDT
[#12]
OH YES! Right behind the Beta mag, sorta curved, and in front of the pistol grip  Correct. Before the AWB went away, no forward handguards were allowed. Now that the AWB is gone, the 50 ounce limit and the no handguard limitation are gone also. The vertical forward grip ruling still remains as that would make the pistol an AOW (any other weapon) and to put one on you will need to file a form 1, pay $200 for a making an NFA weapon firearms tax, and when approved you can "make" the AOW, which in this case means just putting on a vertical forward grip. Pricy damned grip isn't it? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 3:03:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Gov't gives permission to own a gun we may legally own. How nice of them.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 4:04:46 PM EDT
[#14]
I may have to make me one of those in 9mm now.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 7:09:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Does anyone make a round buffer tube that won't accept any buttstock assembly?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2004 10:31:39 PM EDT
[#16]
So is it now legal to build a 10.5 in Commando style pistol without a buttstock? As long as it has no vert grip and it is built on a new stripped lower bought as "stripped lower "on 4473?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2004 2:27:39 PM EDT
[#17]
I have the same thought  ETA: If I could find a nice 10.5" 9mm barrel... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2004 2:32:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Big-Bore.
Nice rig, but the scope is for what again? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2004 3:38:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Isn't the tax stamp for an AOW only $5? |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2004 7:53:22 PM EDT
[#20]
$5 to transfer an existing one, $200 to make one. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2004 8:05:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Added bonus for MO residents!
If its on the paper as a "stripped reciever"........you don't have to deal with the fucking "permit to purchase" BULLSHIT!!!! WHOOHOO! Big-Bore Any chance you could send me a high-res scan of that? IM me for my gmail address if you can. -FOTBR |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2004 8:12:13 PM EDT
[#22]
From the letter:
That's serious problem. So, if you own either the rest of the parts of the CAR stock, any AR stock, or another AR that has a stock, you can't have an AR pistol. I think that's BS, but that's what the BATF has claimed in the past is true and is claiming again that it is true.z |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 2:56:14 AM EDT
[#23]
That's why I want to know if anyone makes a round buffer tube that doesn't accept any stock assembly. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 3:47:42 AM EDT
[#24]
I think we dodged a bullet on their reply to his inquiry.
I am of the opinion knowing the rules is good enough, to ask them for an interpretation is inviting them to declare something illegal, whether it is within their scope or not. The rule says stock. Thats enough for me. I am glad they didnt declare a tube is a stock and illegal, that would have been truly fucked. Always easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.  Begging for a right..... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 6:25:49 AM EDT
[#25]
so does this mean that if you buy a Thompson Centerfire break open with a rifle barrel, that you can't take off the stock and put on a pistol barrle and grip?
If so, a bunch of guys out there are sorely mistaken...me included. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 6:51:58 AM EDT
[#26]
funny how a subtle phrase gives me waco flashbacks i have visions now of a prosecutor sliding the vltor off my carbine and onto an ar pistol that, and of jbts shooting my dog |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 7:31:55 AM EDT
[#27]
A1 and A2 stock buffer tubes are round. Those cannot accept a car stock.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 8:22:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Pretty much for pictures and accuracy testing only. Since the picture I have swapped out to a red dot scope but even it is pretty much for looks only. You can do anything worth doing with the standard peep sight, large aperture, as you can with the scope or red-dot.
Ace made the carbine length buffer tube I used that is round, but you can slide an A1/A2 stock over it as you could do with most any extension. Remember, one could make a stock out of damned near anything, a two-by-four and duct tape could turn the Model 1 pistol tube into a stock if you get right down to it. If you own any AR uppers in rifle form, then you are in the clear if you also own any butt stocks that could conceivably slide over the buffer tube, again, ala TC Contender ruling. I would not own only an AR pistol AND only a butt stock as it could not be assembled in any other configuration other than a SBR, but if you have the buttstock AND a rifle upper, then just as with the Contender Carbine kit, you are OK. Just as with the Contender Carbine Kit ruling, if you own ONLY a pistol barrel, frame, and a butt stock, and it cannot be assembled in any configuration OTHER than as an SBR, that could land you in hot water, but having a rifle length barrel AND a butt stock, you are OK.
If on a pistol frame, then you are good to go with a pistol grip and any barrel length you can hold, so long as there are no state laws limiting the length of a pistol barrel. The only thing you cannot do is put the stock on the frame with any barrel less than 16 inches, but you know that already. And of course, staying strictly with the letter of the law (but not like anyone would ever check unless given a very good reason to do so), if the Contender was bought as a rifle, then you cannot put the pistol barrel and grip on it as that would be creating an SBR, that whole thing about once sold as a rifle it is always a rifle.
That is correct.
Sorry, it was shot using 640 x 480 resolution to keep the file as small as possible and the pic falls apart if enlarged. I tried it and it looked like crap. |
|||||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 8:22:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Yeah, but they are longer. Take a CAR buffer tube and do something either with a grinder and/or a file to fix it so a CAR stock will no longer attach. Should be easy enough. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 9:57:05 AM EDT
[#30]
Constructive possession does not apply to rifle parts.
In order to be prosecuted it must be proved that the stock was assembled then removed. There is a Supreme Court case that says " In summary, the court reaffirms its conclusion that the firearms statute did not provide the defendants with a fair opportunity for discovering that the sale of never-before-assembled rifle parts comes within the purview of the statute. No court has ever held that such rifle parts are within the purview of the statute. The statute itself does not expressly provide this. The sole, relevant revenue ruling on this subject does not state this, and given that the readily restored to" language of the Gun Act of 1968 merely "restated" the effect of that ruling, it is likely that the ruling was only meant to cover only previously assembled rifle parts." The full case is here www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_drasen1.txt |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 10:37:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Or just by a Shorty buttstock buffer tube from RRA.... |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 11:40:39 AM EDT
[#32]
That is what I was inferring. Still if you alter a shorty tube untill astock will not attach, so much the better. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 12:45:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Well you said CAR buffer tube so I assumed you were talking about a collapible stock buffer tube. It looks like this:  I was talking about the LE Entry shorty stock by RRA, which looks like this:  edit: though if you use the entry shorty stock tube then you'd have to add a sling plate of some sort to hold the rear takedown pin detent spring in... |
||||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2004 1:04:22 PM EDT
[#34]
The tube on my pistol is very similar if not the same as the tube used in the entry butt stock (ACE ARFX tube). ACE makes a clamp on sling stud/receiver end plate that reinforces the tube and does a very good job (also from their ARFX stock). Pricy though at $35 but IMO worth every penny. I also had trouble with the ACE end plate walking backwards no matter how hard I tightend the clamp screw even after only a couple of shots. I fixed that by putting a drop of 3M ScotchKote on the tube then clamping the receiver end plate on it. No more slipping.
No question the standard CAR tube is the cheaper way to go at about $12 for the tube, $8 and $4 or so for the CAR buffer and spring, $3 for the end plate and $3 for the lock-nut. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2004 5:35:35 PM EDT
[#35]
***
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2004 6:08:05 PM EDT
[#36]
The law is too complicated and makes no sense. I hope you will all write your congressmen to ask them to repeal the laws that make it so easy to unintentionally get in trouble. Read this:weaponforums.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=307495
I invite you to read my blogs and feel free to comment. You may copy any of my material if you want to use it in a letter to your congressmen, letters to the editor, or other publications. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2004 6:13:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Thanks for the info.
I just love how the ATF always wants to have it both ways. The key word here is "COULD". I would be very careful with your purchases, cause if you piss them off or they have a slow day at the office and want to prosecute someone for something to do, they can just say, "Well, he HAD other rifle parts, so it's a SBR". NO matter what, it will cost you money. Or if you win, they'll just come burn your house down and shoot your dog.  Lesson one, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER TRUST THE BATFE, PERIOD! Lesson two, If you forget, read lesson number one... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2004 7:42:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Or you could go the "Contender" route.
If you have a pistol with a car buffer tube, and a CAR Stock (not on the wepon) as long as you have a 16"+ upper in the same location as the CAR Stock you SHOULD be free and clear. If I only have one receiver and wanted to use it in both pistol and rifle/carbine config there isn't much they can say as long as the CAR Stock is NEVER installed when the pistol upper is. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/31/2004 8:32:17 AM EDT
[#39]
They said "could" because the specifics of the circumstances will dictate the response. For example, if you own only an AR15 pistol using the carbine buffer tube, and you own a stock that fits the tube, the ATF is going to view that as an illegal SBR that is simply in a broken down state. However, if you also have a spare upper with a 16"+ barrel, the situation is "ambiguous" per the language of the Thompson Center case, and thus legal. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/31/2004 9:30:55 PM EDT
[#40]
If you own an AR15 carbine with a collapsible stock and a AR15 pistol with a carbine buffer tube on it, they "could" prosecute you for a SBR, just because you would switch the plastic stock part. That's what I was getting at. Even if you just own a carbine and a pistol with a carbine stock (which they said was ok), they "COULD" come after you for having a SBR, even though you never put the carbine plastic stock on the pistol. Could have, should have, would have, they'll screw you anyway they can. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/7/2005 12:26:08 PM EDT
[#41]
If it has a VFG it's an AOW. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/7/2005 12:48:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Southern_Raider & lippo,
That is why I ground down the mounting rib on the bottom of my CAR buffer tube. Even though I still have the butstock laying around the house somewhere it can "NEVER" be reinstalled on my pistol. I don't know why, if people use a CAR buffer tube they don't grind off the mounting rib. The job takes all of about 25 minutes. I have 16" carbines in the house as well so I can say it's a spare butstock for them. If I really get paranoid I can just throw away that $10 piece. Just my .02 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/7/2005 1:57:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Personally, I would weld a fender washer to the rear of the tube and add a sling point. This keeps any available AR15 stock from sliding over the tube.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/7/2005 2:57:55 PM EDT
[#44]
NOBODY told them to use CAR tubes in the first place. What was suggested was to use the buffer tubes from the "shorty" style stocks, I guess that was too much trouble for them. Back in 93 I had cut a standard receiver extension, turned it down, and had tig welded my own custom buffer tube. And whether a stock COULD be installed is immaterial. Paladin |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/7/2005 3:16:52 PM EDT
[#45]
PALADIN -
There have been so many threads about Pistol Buffer Tubes that I get them mixed up. You may be correct about the advice on the original post. All I know is that a CAR Buffer Tube with the rib ground down and a foam sleeve installed works great for me and can never be made into a shoulder stock again. It took me less than an hour to make and didn't cost much (got used stock @ gun show). MadDog  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/7/2005 3:36:49 PM EDT
[#46]
MadDogDan,
LOOKS SWEET.Back in '93, what I did was measure the INSIDE depth of my Colt CAR-15 buffer tube. Then cut down a standard tube to about the right length with a hacksaw. The "nub" from the end I put a bolt into, and chucked it in a drill. Spun the "nub" against a running belt sander until the "nub" would just barely press into the end of the cut tube. Once I set the inner depth the same as a CAR, I had the parts tig welded together by a professional welder friend. These days, BM will sell you the part already made! Here's a picture of MY Arf pistola these days... Paladin  |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 8:45:24 AM EDT
[#47]
But you could take the upper off and put it on a carbine. What is the legality of that? CH |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 9:18:27 AM EDT
[#48]
If you take the pistol upper off the pistol and put it on the stocked rifle lower then you have created an illegal SBR. You cannot do that. However, there is no problem in owning both. The only problem you run in to is if you own only a pistol and no other AR 15 uppers in rifle length and are also in possession of a butt stock. Since the ONLY way that can be assembled is into an SBR, then owning those parts could constitute constructive intent. If you own the rifle, or a rifle length upper, then having a butt stock is no problem unless you assemble them into an illegal SBR, butt stock with pistol upper.
To say that owning a rifle and a pistol would be a problem because once COULD switch uppers around to make an illegal SBR would be the same as saying if you own a rifle and a hack saw you have the makings for an illegal SBR. Just don't put the rifle stock on the pistol upper and you are fine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 10:21:02 AM EDT
[#49]
Hrmm, would that be true in any state where you need a 'permit to purchase' for a pistol, but not a long gun? I'm curious about Michigan in particular. It seems to good to be true tho. In Michigan (and most states) for something to be considered a non-nfa rifle, it must have minimum barrel length and overall length. Is MO different? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/20/2005 10:24:47 AM EDT
[#50]
Anything I have said only relates to federal law. With state laws being so variable I would not even try to comment on how state laws might affect the purchase or build. That is best left to the individual in that state to find out by contacting their state's AG.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
