User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/2/2004 2:38:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Wonder what the actual effectiveness against S.O.T.P.(Stuff Other Than Paper), like people would be?
How far could you expect a barrel that short (exactly how short is it by the way?) to cause sufficient damage to a person? My guess is 40-50 yards max....if that....but then again, it's just a guess. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2004 2:47:23 PM EDT
[#2]
A 9mm or .45ACP version would solve the lethality problem, if that is a concern...
Think SP89, UZI, or M-11, but AR based... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2004 2:49:43 PM EDT
[#3]
There are NO loads that will fragment at ANY range from such a short barrel, so you must use an expanding bullet (soft-point or "ballistic tip" preferably) to get anything beyond "ice pick" damage. -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2004 2:49:47 PM EDT
[#4]
With a good sling, and a good hold I would not feel undergunned in the least out to about 50yds. Using the right ammo, it would be one lethal combo. I will prob get one once the ban sunsets (hopefully).
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2004 3:27:22 PM EDT
[#5]
If they were close enough you'd just burn em' to death with the fireball coming out of the end of the muzzle.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2004 3:32:39 PM EDT
[#6]
In another month and a half, you could replace the upper and have a nicer gun.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 1:45:33 PM EDT
[#7]
What kind of upper? One with handguards, you mean?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 2:19:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Standard aluminum upper with handguards.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 2:23:28 PM EDT
[#9]
"Everyone seems to love an AR pistol"
Not everyone. Tits on a bull. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 2:58:07 PM EDT
[#10]
+1 -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 3:59:42 PM EDT
[#11]
+2 -Forest |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 4:06:56 PM EDT
[#12]
not i said the rob
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 4:10:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Not trying to take anything out of context here because you recognize that the Balistic Tip style bullets should expand. But the Hornady Vmax should fragment down to a velocity of around 1400-1600fps, or so I have read at one time long ago in some Hornady literature. Not that I would expect the sort of explosive performance as the same bullet going 2500-3k fps at time of impact on some fleshy vermin. An AR pistol should be able to deal enough velocity on even a 60grn bullet to get it into this velocity range. Agreed though, AR pistols are not something that interest me in the slightest. Would MUCH rather have a 224Boz chambered 1911 with 50grn bullets at 2100fps shooting something the Vmax but that is the diehard varminter in me. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 4:29:30 PM EDT
[#14]
You certainly will get expansion down to those velocities from a V-Max bullet. What you *won't* get is sufficient penetration. Below a certain velocity, you have to choose from two poor choices: lots of expansion with poor penetration, or poor/no expansion with sufficient penetration. In order to get enough of BOTH expansion (or fragmentation) AND penetration, you need more velocity than an AR pistol can deliver.
-Troy |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 4:42:51 PM EDT
[#15]
OH OH, 50 Beowolf pistol AR15....
You know that if the AW ban sunsets it will only be a matter of time, I'm just pulling a Nostradamus. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 4:55:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Thats my plan. better than a .44! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2004 5:34:11 PM EDT
[#17]
So can we classify an AR pistoil as "Less that lethal?"
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2004 12:53:02 AM EDT
[#18]
No. But lethality isn't the issue. A wound that causes someone to die 3 days after the shooting is still lethal, but that doesn't mean that it STOPPED them in enough time to prevent them from killing you. When selecting a defensive/duty weapon system, your goal isn't "lethality", it is to immediately (or as close to instantly as possible) remove your attacker's ability to continue the fight. If you're lucky enough to damage the central nervous system (brain or spinal cord), you'll usually achive this, but the CNS is a very difficult target to hit in real life. We must normally rely on causing tissue damage to the vital organs, causing massive blood loss and the onset of shock, in order to take someone out of a fight reliably. That's why both the gun platform and the load selection are so critical; every second counts when the bad guy is shooting back at you. -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2004 11:22:51 PM EDT
[#19]
I want one just to upset the antis...
BTW, probably still more lethal than the FN Pistol shooting the AP stuff... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2004 11:25:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Not true. Frangible or "Green" ammo will, such as Longbow. And I would imagine that the blended metal bullets would as well. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2004 1:17:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Frangible bullets break up into powder; that's not what I'm referring to when I talk about fragmentation, which makes much larger chunks of bullet. Frangible bullets tend to make very shallow wounds.
-Troy |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2004 6:41:37 AM EDT
[#22]
i agree with the statement about getting one to make the anti's upset
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2004 6:56:09 AM EDT
[#23]
The BM is B.S. and it won't do it from a full size AR - let alone a pistol. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2004 6:58:57 AM EDT
[#24]
"That's 'Duke'". "Duck, says I."  |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2004 8:05:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Until Gile's had a slip of the tounge it was 'Duke'.... 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2004 9:09:42 AM EDT
[#26]
+ 3 I just don't get it I guess. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2004 10:37:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Well, everyone I've encountered has.
Most say they'd never buy one though. Is that better? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/9/2004 10:43:14 AM EDT
[#28]
+4 ....me either. 
|
||||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 9:02:17 AM EDT
[#29]
AS FAR AS THE KILLING AND BULLET PENETRATION GOES...WOULDN'T 30 ROUNDS COMING AT YOU STOP JUST ABOUT ANYBODY? WHO IS REALLY GONNA KEEP THE 10RD MAG?
BULLET ASIDE, THE ABILITY TO THROW 30 ROUNDS AT AN INTRUDER WILL STOP THEM. ONE OF THOSE ROUNDS WILL BE FATAL. DON |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 9:28:58 AM EDT
[#30]
+5 I've never seen one work as well as a full size AR nor heard of anyone that "loves" them. |
|||||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 9:33:10 AM EDT
[#31]
But if it's got a 1/7 twist barrel in 4150 steel, I've got to have it!
Please?  What if I make it a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel? I've looked at the AR pistols, but I agree the 7" barrels are too short. I'd love to play with one in 10.5" though-- but then it should have a telestock on it and isn't a pistol any more. ;) |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 11:26:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Why do you assume that you'll be able to get 30 rounds off before a badguy gets a fatal shot back at YOU? Unless you have a full-auto and have spent a LONG time learning to control it in long bursts, the fact that you have 30 rounds isn't going to matter most of the time. Most gunfights are stopped by the first person to get an EFFECTIVE hit on the other. Don't assume that it will be YOU that gets the effective hit just because you have 30 rounds to try, especially when you've disadvantaged yourself so badly with your choice of weapon. If you've ever been shot at in real life, you quickly understand that you want EVERY advantage on your side, and that the single most important thing is to STOP the incoming fire NOW. A .223 AR pistol is going to do a poor job there. -Troy |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 12:35:55 PM EDT
[#33]
I dont care how long the barrel is, supressive fire is supressive fire. Granted, I would much rather have an M4 over an AR pistol but I have seriously thought of buying a pistol upper to bring back to Iraqwith me to put on an M231 for a backup weapon. Could you imagine, an open bolt, full auto AR pistol? Was going to get one of those wire stocks from DPMS to go on it also.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 12:36:58 PM EDT
[#34]
No way, I heard that they can go through a tank and still hit a pot roast and explode it, even from a pistol. I saw it on the internet! 
|
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 12:39:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Where do you get open bolt AR's? Just curious. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 12:40:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Guess you dont know what an M231 is do you?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 12:43:31 PM EDT
[#37]
The M231 is a port firing weapon, based on the M16 that is open bolt, full auto...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 1:54:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Nope never heard of it.
Interesting, what is the advantage to being open bolt? Is it that it doesn't keep a round in the hot chamber? Is it used as a light SAW alternative? Just Curious. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 1:59:17 PM EDT
[#39]
the M231 is used in the ports of the Bradley they are used for defensive fire around the Bradley by the grunts in the back of it. As far as advantages, I dont know... The open bolts operate without a hammer so I think their rate of fire might be a little higher. They do shoot fast. Full auto only. They also have no butstock, just a VERY short receiver extention tube.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:06:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Here is a picture of it... Now that with a wire stock and a pistol upper is what I am talking about carrying in Iraq as a backup.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:14:46 PM EDT
[#41]
If it doesn't have a hammer, and fires from an open bolt, would you be able to drop an upper on it, and have it work? I would think that a gooseneck, assuming that the carry handle has provisions for one, and a good scope would be a better solution. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:16:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Why would it be any different than the upper on it now? The upper dont house the hammer. The uppers are the same...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:16:58 PM EDT
[#43]
The bolt and carrier are different in it, but not so different that they wont go into a regualr M16 upper.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:16:58 PM EDT
[#44]
You said there is no hammer, what would strike the firing pin on the pistol upper, if there is no hammer? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:17:29 PM EDT
[#45]
OK. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 2:17:40 PM EDT
[#46]
The firing pin is fired from a plunger that rides inside the bolt carrier.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/3/2004 3:46:19 PM EDT
[#47]
+6 1/2 My son agrees too. You just dont take a pistol of any kind to a rifle fight. And due to the size and bulkyness it would not be considered as an option for a secondary weapon.... for me any way. To each his own though. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
