User Panel
Posted: 7/30/2004 2:32:44 PM EDT
Just curious as to what part of a telescopeing stock is illegal when it comes to the ban. Could a person have an AR with an tele-stock tube attached but no stock on it? Or would the buffer tube/reciever extention, a part that is necessary for the firearm to operate actualy be considered the stock?
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Why don't you wait a month and a half, when the question will be moot?
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Its not a matter of waiting. I was putting together two lowers and wanted to completely assemble them. I dont have uppers for them yet, but wanted to be able to put the tubes and retaining springs in place. the onyl way to do that is by installing the buffer tube. Just wanted to see if i would be ok haveing two complete lowers minus the plastic stock in my safe.
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There's nothing illegal about putting a telescoping stock on a lower receiver.
What is illegal, until 14 Sep 04, is assembling a _rifle_ with too many "bad" features (pistol grip, telescoping stock, flash suppressor, etc). Without a barreled upper receiver you're not assembling a "semiautomatic assault weapon" so there's no violation under Federal law. |
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Actually, AGC, according to both the law and the ATF, the receiver is the firearm, so assembling a receiver with evil features is the same as assembling or manufacturing a firearm with evil features.
The pistol grip, capability to accept a standard-capacity magazine and collapsable / folding stock are 1994 AWB 922v 'evil features'. That's three on one firearm (in this case receiver) and that's one too many according to 18 U.S.C. section 921(a) (30) (A), until 14 September 2004. edited to change 'two' to 'too'. |
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The receiver may be the firearm but it is not a "semi automatic assault weapon". |
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Make a non semi-auto and you can have ALL the evil features. Otherwise just wait until the sunset. You're not allowed to have more than two of the features. You already have a detachable mag and a pistol grip thus you cannot add a tele-stock, FS, not a bayonet lug. |
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+1000 |
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If you did it no one would ever know, unless you post it on the internet. I am in no way incouraging you to break the law.
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Ditto, come Sept.13th it's all fair game again. |
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As was said, don't do it. You can, however, put just the buffer tube on IF you DO NOT HAVE the telescoping stock. I am in the same situation you are but am waiting to build two pistols, and I am using the CAR buffer and tube instead of the pistol tube. Having ONLY the buffer tube on the lower is perfectly OK so long as you DO NOT have in your possession the rest of the stock.
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Dude, just sandwich the small parts (takedown pin detent, spring, plunger tube retainer and spring) in some clear tape and tape it to the inside of the magwell. That's what I do, since you won't be shooting it anyway, and assembling it takes all of 45 seconds (I allow 90 seconds if you only have one hand )
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I personally just resisted the same temptation. I just took in two new Bushmaster lowers. I've already had the collapsible stocks in standby (spares for my prebans) and I wanted more than anything else to mount them on the new lowers. There is one thing I want even more than that though - that is NOT to spend ten years in prison and pay a fine for something so petty, stupid and meaningless.
I'll wait. |
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I've done this so many times I wonder why I'm doing it again. If you do not possess the upper receiver then the lower reciever, which is a firearm, can not meet the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon, and therefore is not regulated by 922(v).
While it may have the necessary number of banned features listed in 921(a)(30)(b), those features must be on a semiautomatic rifle, which is defined in 921(a)(28). I don't know why the segment of the population most offended by the AWB continually self-regulates itself beyond what the government has already done, but that's certainly your right. |
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And without an upper receiver it is _not_ a _semiautomatic_ rifle, so the '94 law _does_ _not_ apply to it. |
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If there is no upper reciever around, that can be slapped onto it. If you have one in the vicinity, even on another rifle, then it could be assembled into an 'Assault Weapon.' It's just like having M16 parts and an AR 15 in your possession. |
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Sorry, but this is not true. "Constructive possession" does not apply here. |
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+1 |
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So if a lower receiver with a telestock INSTALLED is not illegal, then what about a complete rifle minus the bolt carrier? By your logic it would be the same thing, an incomplete rifle and in my opinion illegal. Like Hoplophile said: "If the lower receiver accepts a detachable mag, has a pistol grip and has a collapsible stock then you're just asking for trouble. It's only a month away, why take the chance." Legally, the lower receiver IS the firearm in the US. Having extra parts around is okay. A preban upper sitting in the closet is okay. A telestock sitting in your closet is okay. A telestock sitting in your closet, installed on your lower receiver (legally the firearm) is very iffy. It's just not worth it. What is the point of installing the telestock now since you aren't going to put together the entire rifle? It'll take you 5 minutes on Sept 14th to put the stock on. |
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True, which is why I'm not nervous about having some upper receiver assemblies with flash hiders and bayonet lugs around the house when I also have preban rifles. But the AR15 is designed as a semi-auto so unless you've got a non-semi-auto upper receiver on order the police would not have a hard time convincing a jury of non-gunowners that your post-ban lower with a collapsible stock is a violation of teh AWB. Even if you were found not guilty, why waste all that money on legal fees when you could just have a little patience? |
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I'm kinda thinking----since the lower receiver is the serial numbered part and considered a firearm-----any illegal features added to a post-ban receiver are forbidden---upper receiver or not.
You can own pre-ban uppers because they aren't a serial numbered part. Don't do anything to a lower till Sept. |
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Mmmm ... is a law really broken if no one but the law breaker knows about it and there is no victim?
BTW can anyone tell me at what point in their training that the BATF officers are issued their telepathic powers and X-ray vision? NOTE: The above rhetorical questions where designed to provoke reasonable and rational thought about this whole inane subject. (Since no reasonable and rational thought was given to the creation of the AWB in the first place.) |
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Your question is moot since the author published his intent in this thread. My opion is that the law doesn't make sense but a hypothetical person would be breaking the law since the law does exist. |
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A perfect scenario of a "Victimless Crime". If I assembled a post ban lower with pre-ban parts...who is a victim? (all hypothetical...I would never break a law that is set to become non-existant in 26 days)
Just food for thought. |
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Be careful there is probably some gov't geek that wrote a program that allows the BATF to track purchase orders prior to 9-13-04 for pre-ban parts which will allow the Feds to cross reference that info against the issued serial numbers of post ban weapons against their owners . It wouldn't surprise me a bit if our government decided it would be worth the tax money used to compile a list of names so they could prevent 3 - $50.00 pre-ban collapsible stocks from seeing the daylight prior to the sunset !
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If you have all the parts necessary to assemble a COMPLETE "AW" then you will get busted.
CRC |
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Now that would be funny!! (Not to mention a huge waste of tax payer dollars.) |
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Hey guy's I found this on the rimfire central page thought it would help .
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226 NOV 1 6 2001 Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXX: This refers to your letter of March 19, 2001, in which you ask about the status of certain semiautomatic assault weapons which have been altered to another configuration. As defined in section 921(a)(30), of Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C, the term "semiautomatic assault weapon" includes certain named weapons and certain semiautomatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns that have a combination of enumerated features. Title 18 U.S.C. section 922(v)(1) prohibits manufacture, transfer, and possession of semiautomatic assault weapons; however, section 922(v)(2) provides that any semiautomatic assault weapon that was lawfully possessed under Federal law on September 13, 1994, is excluded from the prohibition. A frame or receiver of a semiautomatic assault weapon, meets the definition of a "firearm" in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(3); however, a firearm frame or receiver alone, without the additional qualifying features, does not meet the definition of a "semiautomatic assault weapon" in section 921(a)(30). Therefore, a firearm frame or receiver does not meet the exemption in section 922(v)(2). We have also determined that a semiautomatic assault weapon in knockdown (unassembled) condition consisting of a receiver and all parts needed to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon are subject to regulation if the parts are segregated or packaged together and held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular firearm. You describe an AR15 type rifle that met the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon and was lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. At some subsequent time the rifle was temporarily reassembled in a configuration such that it no longer had the qualifying features of a semiautomatic assault weapon. You asked if the original components could then be lawfully reinstalled on the rifle. Provided that the original components were held by the owner and reinstalled on the rifle, it is our opinion that the rifle would still qualify as an exempted semiautomatic assault weapon even though it had been temporarily assembled in a different configuration. We note, that mere disassembly of a semiautomatic weapon by an owner would not remove the firearm from the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon nor would the reassembly constitute manufacture of a prohibited semiautomatic assault weapon. Your second question concerns a semiautomatic assault weapon that also meets the exemption in section 922(v)(2). However, this firearm was disassembled and the receiver, without other components, was sold. Since the receiver is no longer possessed with all parts necessary to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon, it no longer meets the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon. The receiver does not meet the exemption in section 922(v)(2) and assembly of this firearm in the configuration of a semiautomatic assault weapon would be prohibited under section 922(v)(1). If you are interested in determining the status of a particular receiver or semiautomatic assault weapon, you should contact the manufacturer or importer and ask about the date that it was manufactured and the configuration at the time of sale. It may also be necessary to contact subsequent dealers and owners who possessed the firearm. We regret the delay in responding to your inquiry. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact us. Sincerely yours, Curtis H.A. Bartlett Chief, Firearms Technology Branch |
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"...you will get busted" is a rather strong prediction sir. General idea is correct so please allow me to modify slightly: If you have all the parts necessary to assemble a COMPLETE "AW" and those parts are segregated or packaged together then |
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No offense inteded toward Omaha but some people need to do less "thinking" on their own and more reading the actual law like AGC has obviously done. Thanks AGC. |
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