i understand we are looking at alternatives to 5.56...  found this link:

http://www.troyind.com/TROY%20CQB.htm

i have not found any specific information on the 6.8mm round regarding specifications, pricing or availability?

6.8 x 43mm?? We think it is a .270 bullet in a short case. Probably a fast powder to get good velocity. Not aware of too much else.

Just wait a bit, guys.  Then us ammo mods can tell you all you want to know.  Until then, you're just gonna hear some rumors and some speculation.

I'm chompin at the bit...

Well if we can't hear about the 6.8mm round, then maybe someone can talk about Troy Industries as I'm not familiar with them but I've seen both of their products pop up on AR15.com recently and they are linked to AR15.com. They definitely have some interesting ideas on weapons.

They are also the only group I know of offering 6.8mm uppers for sale at the moment. Maybe someone from Troy can answer whether the round will use existing magazines?

a little more info:

[red]not here, please[/red]

Respectfully,

Steve Troy
Troy Industries, Inc.
Home of The Rock SOPMOD M14
w w w . T R O Y I N D . c o m
)

i wonder how difficult it will be to find in the not so distant future?

I find it hard to believe that Troy is currently selling these 6.8 uppers to the public.  As far as I know, ALL the 6.8 reamers are gov't property, and are tightly controlled.

I always thought the AR/M series would find its pinicle in a intermediate caliber. I am eagerly awaiting info on this caliber. Did the gov create this caliber? Why are they controlling the reamers?

SorryOciffer

You send a spec'd drawing to Clymer and they make the reamer for you. Gubmint can't control free thought just yet.

And you'll get a spec'd drawing...where?  Unless you're privy to some sensitive information, you're not gonna find specs.

So if I were to run a .270 expander ball into the mouth of a 5.56 x 44 case, I might not be close?? A .223 loading of Varget should get that .277 140 grainer out there at about the right velocity.

no, you can't "Just" do that!!!

you have to spend about 5 million dollars first!

i love out govt! [:)]

Nope.  The new round is ENTIRELY new.  It is not a necked up 5.56.

Shucks!! I did create a new wildcat cartridge, maybe, I hope.

I see nothing wrong with the 5.56 round.

6.8mm for the military means all service rifle has to be changed, or altered for the new round.  why go through the problem if the 5.56 is doing its job??

[hint]Unless it will be SOF specific.[/hint]

brouhaha,

Is this round going to be for military/leo use only?  The reason I am asking is because your comments hint that this is a rather secretive project.  

-Pat

edited to add:

do you know whether or not the round will use a standard AR/M16 mag?  Something along the lines of 25 rounds instead of 30, etc...?

The round began life as a military concoction.  However, it will be available to anybody in the near future.

It WILL fit a standard AR mag, however, it may not feed reliably.  There will be mags designed for this round that, being new production, will be Mil/LE only.

I'm probably talking too much here, so I should shut up.

Brou, if the round is SF spec'ed, then the supply chain will have to be on the ball to keep up with the demand of a smallgroup of SF shooters. if an operator run out of his load of 6.8mm then he is SOL, but if an operator run out of 5.56 77gr, he can still use the standard M193, or M855 ammo.  If battery power is so important on an extended patrol, why wouldn't the ammo availability for the same mission.  besides, the 6.8 is not a proven stopper against body armor.

against human targets, 77gr 5.56 is yielding excellent result.

Pat,

6.8 will look just like a 5.56 with the same 5.56 casing but the bullet will be a 6.8mm round, it will take standard magazine, and bolt, only change will be the barrel.

Totally untrue.

*Unwarranted Speculation*

This talk of a new round with the uppers that would go with it has me thinking... mayhaps this is the lead in to a major overhaul of the m16 weapon system? I think I heard somewhere that the government was interested in the gas-piston upper designs (like the ZM system) introducing a new round would be a good excuse for further tinkering in the new uppers.

Hmmmm....

brouhaha, I am trying to think of why the round would not be designed to fit into a regular magazine.  I am not saying that you are wrong, it is just that there are probably untold millions of 20 & 30 round mags already out there.  These mags feed in and out of the lower with excellent reliability.  Why would you want to have to retool new mags for a new round if you could use the old mags?  Also, that means that if a SF operator finds himself out of 6.8 mags, then he has a weapon of reduced capability by using the more plentiful 5.56 mags.  And now, procurement has to oversee two kinds of M16-type magazines.  5.56 variety & 6.8 variety.  Seems like a nightmare in the field.  

One more thing, why do you think you have said too much?  If the round is going to be available to the general public, what is the reason for the smoke & mirrors?  The cartridge still uses gunpowder? Throws a jacketed lead bullet? Expends the used shell?  This is still just a rifle cartridge, right?



SMGLee,

I only hope you are correct.  It just seems to make more sense.

Either way, I will never understand the military dev process.  

-Fujimoto

Sounds similar to the 6MM PPC round I necked up to 6.5MM. Clymer made the reamer for this round and it's a Douglas barrel. I also use an old Rhino gas system on this AR.

I didn't design it, but I do have all the facts.  And I said it [i]WOULD[/i] fit in regular mags, and I said it [i]MAY[/i] not feed reliably.




Because this is still a sensitive subject, and too much talk is not a good thing.  Classified?  No.  Just sensitive.  When the time comes, I will be more than happy to tell people why.

Also, some rather esteemed ballisticians that were part of the design process have entrusted this information to me with the expectations that I won't say anything more than I'm allowed.  I won't break my word.

SOunds like it won't require new mags, but might require some modification to the feed lips.

Brou,

Is it possible there are couple of different rounds of 6.8 under development??  the one I saw fit into what seems to be a standard M16 30 round magaizne, the casing lloked to be a 5.56 round with a different neck to fit the 6.8 and the magainze held 30 rounds.  I did not inspect the bolt but it also look very standard.  The guys that was playing wiht it did noty offer too much information on them but the performance data from the round was very impressive on soft tissue.

Chen,

Like you said a few times, it [i]looked[/i] the same.  But it's not.  The bolt is similar, but not the same.  The mags are similar, but not the same.  Etc, etc.  There's only 1 6.8mm round that I know of, and yes, the terminal performance is, well, fantastic.

It is entirely possible, however, that somebody else is playing with the 6.8 idea.  Alexander Arms is playing with a 6.5 for the AR, but it looks more like a BR cartridge.  If you care to, IM me and tell me where you saw this.

brouhaha,

So the people in the industry want you to keep a lid on things, got it.  Completely understandable.  


I do realize you stated that it would work in a regular mag, but it might not feed reliably.  Hopefully there will be a follower swap/and or feed ramp redesign available on a 6.8mm upper.  

I am assuming that this is an effort to give a little extra "ummfh" to the assault rifle class round?  Giving a less than battle-size class round the ability to effectively shoot through cover???

If you can't answer, I understand.  But new research/ideas/projects/etc.. always peaks my interest.

-Pat

Except that industry isn't the right word.  In fact, the bits and pieces I've picked up from other sources imply that industry is the potential *problem*.  The cartridge is being designed by people who know what they're doing and they want to make sure that the end product is the best it can be.  The concern is that if too much detail gets into the wrong hands then a similar but inferior product could be forced on the troops.  Like Brou said, it isn't classified but it is 'sensitive'.  

As much as I want to know all about the new loading, this is one of those things where it's best for everybody if we all just sit back and wait.

Very well said, Hoplophile.

You get a cookie [:D]

ok,

I'll stop askin' questions.......fer now.....


-Fuji

How "top secret" can this project be? I just contacted Troy Industries myself and was told the 6.8 AR uppers will bw available for civilian sales in six weeks.

You're absolutely right.They are selling  postban and preban uppers.Only the complete rifles will be restricted to M/LE.Hoever does this mean that 6.8 ammo will be available in 6 weeks?

Got me a little corn-fused (which is easy to do in Iowa). Guess I'll eagerly wait the developments. Lone Star AP?? I've been to a TX/AR town nearby and beautiful downtown Hooks (home of Billy Sims).

As this is now published in Guns& Weapons For Bathrom Reading I thought I'd throw this out there- according to the writer, the case is based on the .25 Remington-

Just thought I'd throw this out there as it is now available on newstands.

No one is going to have 6.8 anything for sale in six weeks or soon after. Accuracy is the aim of it at distance that 5.6 can't reach. When the gov't say it can be had, thats when it will be. Nuf said.
Jack

Like I said before, I spoke to troy industries myself both via email+phone. I was told "6.8mm AR15 uppers will be available in six weeks for civilian sales". Don't believe me, call them yourself. People can play "Internet 007" all they want, but in a couple of months anybody can at least buy the 6.8 conversion kit. This is from troys website. "Conversion of customers firearm:  $1800.00 for complete Troy CQB-SPC completion kit as described above minus lower receiver. Kit includes Troy CQB-SPC upper receiver assembly with ARMS #40 Flip up rear sight, #50 Bi-Level S.I.R., Mil Spec Forged Flat Top receiver, Nickel Boron Lined Match Grade barrel with military chamber, PRI Fold down front sight, Enhanced Bolt Assembly in Nickel Boron finish, Special CQB Flash hider / muzzle break for quick detach CQB or Sniper Suppressor, NSW-Crane four position enhanced butt stock assembly, stainless steel hammer and trigger pins. 5.56mm or 6.8mm available".

[img]http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1nzcr/ar15/DSC05770.jpg[/img]

Why are they doing this? I thought you guys knew; The Chinese have developed a 6.8mm assault rifle round after intensely studying the deficiencies of the NATO 5.56mm and Russian 5.45mm ammunition, particularly in regard to failure of the 'penetrator' ammo to immediately stop unarmored assailants (as in Afghanistan). We're just 'keeping up with the Joneses'. Looks like the .22 cal. is on the way out.

The Chinese round is 5.8mm and not 6.8mm

[LOLabove]

That's funny!  You're right though, if it's being talked about it here then it's too late to be "sensitive".  Oh well, this cat is out of the bag.

I just went over to Troy Ind. website & checked ou the Troy CQB-SPC. Couldn't find any mention of a 6.8mm option.

Call troyindustries or email him yourself. A month or so ago I was interested in buying one of his 6.8mm uppers. I spoke to a rep over the phone and got several email replys that the uppers would " be available for civilian sales in six weeks". If that has changed it is news to me.

From what I've read on this cartridge on the net, it is based on a 30 Remington round with a bore diameter around .277.  Launches a 120 grain boattail at 2750 fps from an M4 length rifle.  Sounds like a neat cartridge.

One version I read about has a rebated case to fit standard AR bolts.  So, the only really unique thing to the new rifle is the barrel.

It seems things have come full circle.  I think Manchuria trooptested a .277 mauser patterned rifle in the 1920's (?).  Winchester adopted the bore diameter to beat out the 256 Newton.

the new cartridge will be 6.8x43

       Muzzle velocity is 2750fps with a 125gr bullet, and the actual projectile is a .276 "open tipped match bullet" with a Ballistic coefficient of 0.380. If this is true the bullet is actually 7.01mm and effectively the same calibre (.277) that is used in the .270 Win round. The BC sounds a little low. The .270 130gr XCL from Barnes is a boat-tailed hollow point with a BC of .466

The 6.8mm round has the same energy at 250yds as a M855 at has at the muzzle. Since the 6.8mm is of a larger calibre and greater sectional density it will use this energy more effectively when producing terminal damage. At 600yds the 6.8mm has the same energy as a 7.62mm M43 at 275yds, a M193 at 250yds and an M855 at 375yd. Not surprising that initial trials suggest the 6.8mm has impressive terminal effects!

all this stuff was ripped off of http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/bullet.html#68

atek3

So Mao says this is the new super secret prole pimping round that only the Saudis and Egyptians will see in the near future, once we complete the holy neoconservative mission of conquering the entire Middle East and the rest of Asia to spread liberal democracy. I can't wait to work on all the returning troops at the VA Hospital near me when they can't find work [booze] [banghead]

REGARDLESS........

I can only imagine how much $$$$ Black Hills will charge for a case of this ammo. Mao says that if you need to reach out and touch someone at 600 yards, use a damn .300 Win Mag or .338 Lapua Magnum rifle. Who's going to lug around two uppers (M4 and SPR) into battle with two different ammo types? If this is from the ground up a totally different rifle to begin with due to minor details, what's the big advantage over some Spec Ops guy lugging this thing around vs. a good bolt action rifle or a Knight's SR-25? They will weigh nearly the same by the time you add on all the junk. This stuff seems to me to be a money maker for some of these firms out there, and an excuse for the military to buy more toys. I wish I had $100,000 every now and then to blow on Class III firearms, but of course, only my government can do such things, in order to protect my freedoms from Osama who's still at large. [:E]

Some people (not me) are questioning your point. I think this is someone's idea of the perfect marriage of the benefits of the 5.56 & 7.62 rounds. But hey, I don't know shit about it.

>If this is true the bullet is actually 7.01mm and effectively the same calibre (.277) that is used in the .270 Win round<

Whats goes around, comes around again almost 50 years later. In the Black Rifle book they commented how in the 1950's the US held firm to the .308 cartridge while the British were pushing the 7mm as it was more accurate. Since we were the big bankrollers of NATO back then the 7.62 x 51 was made NATO standard. Now seems like the 7mm is getting a better look. Only in America do we re-invent the wheel every 50 years.

actually, rangerider, it's only the gubmt that reinvents the wheel every 50yrs, with YOUR money.

TXL

And if this issue is so sensitive delete the damn thread, but bs I know, but i'd have to kill you is just that, BS.

TXL

I'm gonna piss in all of the Secret Ninja Special Only We Elite Should Have This Info Keyboard Commandos Post Toasties!!!

This shit ain't secret. This shit ain't sensitiive either. This shit MAY be another attempt at hawking another SPECIAL BUY$$$$$$$$

It's based on the .25/.30 Remington cartridge, as previously posted here. That cartridge, 51.9mm in case length will be shortened to 43mm, both to allow proper bullet seating depth and function through the 5.56x45 magazine. The rim will be rebated to the 5.56s diameter, but that will only require the removal of .044" o.d. from the rim to match that of the 5.56 round.

The cases will feed through an unmodified GI magazine, although the follower is being modified for the purpose of easier feeding of the fatter round. I've sucessfully loaded twelve of these cases in an unmodified GI twenty round magazine, but the last one was too tight!

It will be a "true" .270, with a bullet diameter of .277"! Much confusion has been generated by the fact that the Brits tried to have NATO adapt their .276 cartridge in the 1950s instead of our 7.62 (.308), but the British round would be called a 7mm (.284) by our method of designation because we measure to the depth of the groove and use true bullet diameter, while the Brits measure the diameter of the lands. That's why our 6.5mm (.264) cartridges are known as .256 in Britain.

So far, the main contender in the projectile race is the 125gr. boattail, but the 135gr. Sierra MatchKing HPBT has been tested. The 125 has been run at 2700-2800fps MV, but it's feared that the Sierra offering is too long and will intrude into the case too far, limiting available powder space, thus lowering velocity. That's the reason that the highest BC bullets are not making the grade - keeping the OAL of the cartridge short enough to feed within the constraints of the M16 design parameters.

The idea for this cartridge was actually invisioned several years ago, around the time of the Mog disaster, but you-know-who found it easier to run than fight, and the funds that would go towards development were given to our enemies.

This cartridge is no secret! The entire SF community has been aware of it 'ever since', and with no orders, either written or oral, to put a lid on discussion. It's already been all over other sites on the 'net. In fact, the barmaids in the beer joints around Bragg probably know more about it that some of out Ninja-Posers!!  

so really it will be a cross between the 270, a 5.56 and a 7.62X39

that will be nice.  Range good to 500 M???

TXL

      "Range good to 500M???"

I don't know for sure! Everything about this cartridge that I posted previously I know for a fact. In my opionion only, it sure better be good to over 500m.

Use the bullet weight, MV and BC for starters and do the math (plug it into a ballistic program). The cartridge looks very good on paper but I have had no first hand numbers provided to me. I also have no idea of the terminal effects on live human targets, and I'm sure that no one would have told me if they had tested for that as of yet ;-))

Remember that this is no done deal as of yet, with no specs carved in stone. Also remember that at any time someone from one step higher on the food chain can really screw the pooch. So don't bet your lunch money on it until you see the brass come tumbling off the conveyor belt with an LC (or similar) headstamp and the SOTIC boys instructing with it!

But..... psst - I've got a deal on a special run just for you. Just don't tell anybody.