www.teppojutsu.com/prod01.htm

www.alexanderarms.com/beowulf.html


I really would appreciate your reasons for choosing one over the other.

TIA,

Dave S

Always interesting to read ... thought I might add a few comments, having developed the .458 SOCOM ...

A little history:  when we set out to develop the round, only two big bore AR calibers were known to us, the 45 Professional and the 50AE.  We did find the 499LW, but in speaking with Paul, they had not decided on the final design, and had not ordered any brass.  The 50 Beowulf did not exist as the folks at Alexander were still working at Leitner-Wise at the time ... So we then set out to design our own.  As to caliber - at the time, very few 50 cal bullets were available, and the heaviest around 300 grain.  We wanted a wider selection without having to custom order and wanted heavier bullets.  So we chose 458 as they are widely available, and it gave a benchmark to compare performance, the .45-70.  And the original idea had come from the Barnes 458 x 1.5" cartridge so it seemed reasonable.  Also, with the "50 cal" legislation looming, we thought we would hedge our bets.  One last consideration - when we asked around, the people we talked to agreed that headspacing on the case mouth tends to detract from accuracy, compared to using a shoulder.  By necking down to 458 we got the shoulder we wanted, and thus the caliber seemed a good choice.

Brrel length - indeed, extra inches don't mean much, the 24" barrel upper got 2144 fps max, whereas the same round clocks 1900 fps from the 16" barrel - not worth the extra weight.

Accuracy - Peter Pi Jr at CorBon recently shot a 0.5" group at 100 yards with the 24" barrel upper and a 4x scope.  He stated he had never seen a big bore shoot like that.  Hey, if he likes it, who am I to argue?

Necked to 308?  Unfortunately, best we can tell, this causes too much bolt thrust and the lugs will shear off the bolt ...  I'd love to make it work but haven't found a way yet ...

Sabots - the commonly available 50/30 sabots are for 0.510 caliber (50 BMG) and won't fit in the 0.500 Beowulf.  The 45/35 (blackpowder) sabots are for 0.451 caliber and don't work worth a lick in the 0.458 ...

Performance - to me, the two rounds are close enough that I see no real advantage one over the other in terms of ballistics.

Price - Alexander Arms would appear to have access to better sources (co-located at Radford Arsenal) and with Gov't contracts can finance the Beowulf from other projects.  If we use retail pricing for all the components plus $100 labor, the cost of one upper is $763.50 ... considering our dealer price is less than the $865 retail, we are not financing a luxurious lifestyle with this round.

Hope that sheds some light on why we chose the 458 ... as to which is better, let everyone make their own decision, we like ours, but can't claim any major difference to be honest (but we like to think we were the first to offer this type of round commercially)

Marty ter Weeme
Teppo Jutsu LLC
Home of the .458 SOCOM

OK, price seems to be the greatest obstacle to many of you.

Suppose we had an AR15.com special, where we drop the retail price from $865 to $750?  Would that entice more folks to buy one of the uppers?

Better yet, suppose we do something like a group purchase.  We would need a minimum of 20 uppers ordered, no major frills (free floated 16" post ban stainless barrel, A2 front sight) and we could bring the price down to $675 ...

Any interest?

Marty ter Weeme
Teppo Jutsu LLC
Home of the .458 SOCOM

(edited to change AR-15 to AR15.com)

Quoted: OK, price seems to be the greatest obstacle to many of you. Suppose we had an AR15.com special, where we drop the retail price from $865 to $750?  Would that entice more folks to buy one of the uppers? Better yet, suppose we do something like a group purchase.  We would need a minimum of 20 uppers ordered, no major frills (free floated 16" post ban stainless barrel, A2 front sight) and we could bring the price down to $675 ...

Hmmm...this is starting to sound interesting, Marty.  Would there be a provision for upgrades such as FF tubes with rails, or would there have to be at least 20 identical uppers?

I like to think I am a reasonable person ...

The bulk of the cost is in the receiver, bolt/carrier group and barrel.  The hand gaurd comes in behind those.  Depending on the hand gaurd, we can see what we can work.  If we can get the agreed upon hand gaurd at a reasonable price, we might work it that way.  Or, we can substitute the other handgaurd for the base model and ask that the customer pay the difference (this is how we handle the more exotic upgrades right now anyway)

The biggest problem would be to have 20 of youz guyz (and galz) to agree upon a configuration.  I venture the guess that you'll want the A3 flat top .... we really prefer the LoPro (it's more forgiving to work on)

Toss the idea around, start it as a separate topic, let us know what you had in mind and we can see what we can work....

Marty

PS fizassist - nice logo, can you elaborate?

Marty,

Don't know if you remember me.  We spoke for a long while at one of the BIG shows in the AstroArena last year, and I live just around the corner from you.

I think if you could get the price down to $675 or so like you stated, I think I would be interested.  Keep us informed.

I'm buying one.  I ache for a 20"(to break 2000fps) SS, spiral fluted barrel blackened by ROBARGUNS, Armalite A4 upper with their two hex bolts mounted gas block design, along with a Stewart Wilson style free floating aluminum handguard anodized by JP Enterprizes in the color of my choice.  This is my desire. If at all possible......how 'bout all that for a lucky $1300.00?

Sorry about being a group spoiler.  Sometimes I just don't play well with others.  

Dave S

Brouhaha,

Don't you have one (or more) Tromix uppers on order as I do?

Marty,

This sounds interesting to me. I'd like more information. I'll contact you by email and maybe we can move on this idea.

--LS

Quoted: Brouhaha, Don't you have one (or more) Tromix uppers on order as I do?

Unfortunately, I don't have ANY on order.

But, I am interested if we can get this $675 price.

Well, after lurking around here for 18 months, I can't think of a better time to rattle-off my first post...

Marty,
Count me in for a group purchase.  Only hard preference would be an A3 upper.  Free-floated hand guard would be nice, as would a picatinny rail gas block, but I could live with the A2 sight just fine, considering the price break you're offering.  Also, will brass be available soon?

Thx,
noplay

3 down 17 to go.

Any more takers?

--LS

.458 SOCOM At $675.00 or better I am in. I would prefer the flat top and free float as well.

Bob

Quoted: Better yet, suppose we do something like a group purchase.  We would need a minimum of 20 uppers ordered, no major frills (free floated 16" post ban stainless barrel, A2 front sight) and we could bring the price down to $675 ... Any interest? Marty ter Weeme Teppo Jutsu LLC Home of the .458 SOCOM (edited to change AR-15 to AR15.com)

At $675 I'm intrigued!

Quoted: Or, we can substitute the other handgaurd for the base model and ask that the customer pay the difference (this is how we handle the more exotic upgrades right now anyway)

Sure, that's what I'd expect.  I think it would be a good way for people who really wanted the lowest price to get a great upper while still allowing people who were willing to pay a bit more to get a great price.  As you say, it would be tough (at best) to get 20 of us to agree on a configuration.

The LoPro is the same height as the A3, right?  If so, that would be fine by me.  But I guess we should talk about details in another thread, as you suggest.

PS fizassist - nice logo, can you elaborate?

The kanji is for Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.  (www.bujinkan.org has more information.)  We don't do Teppojutsu in class, but I consider it an extracurricular activity.  

My only concern would be if legislation appeared in Congress again next session that would ban 50 caliber rifles.  Last time around it was not specific to 50BMG..anything 50 was theoretically included. Again, just mt 2 cents. Sluggo

All The More reason to GET ONE!!!!

Most questions should be answered on the other thread, but for the few that weren't -

BrouHaHa - yup, remember chatting at the Astro Arena show, hope to be at the Nov show after having just had the cast removed from my hand ...  Also, if you want, I can roll some rounds and we can road trip to Carters off 1960 and let you try the 458 first hand .... good way to drum up business for deer season as well.

Brass - should be available this weekend at CorBon, proper head stamp and formed ... they ordered 25,000 pieces or so, so CorBon is committed to this round and having ammo available.  BTW, we get NADA from them for this, it is strictly a favor they are doing us.

DaveS - now that is a custom upper!  I'd have to do some pricing, I have no idea if we could do that for $1300 or not ....

Fizassist - The Teppo Jutsu training we do is limited to weapons retention/disarming, the other part I have to do "extra-curricular" as well.  Guess I need to figure out what it takes to add the corporate logo to my name .... currently training with Buke Ryu (www.bukeryu.com) but trained in KiYoJuTe Ryu (www.kiyojuteryu.org ?) and Combat Hapkido as well (www.ICHF.com).  Nice thing is that the in-laws live down the road from Thunder Ranch - true Teppo Jutsu training !!!

The KEY to getting price down to $675 is volume, if we can order at least 20 barrels, we can get that price down enough to make it worth everyone's time.

Marty ter Weeme
Teppo Jutsu LLC

Quoted: Most questions should be answered on the other thread, but for the few that weren't -

Where's the other thread ??

BrouHaHa - yup, remember chatting at the Astro Arena show, hope to be at the Nov show after having just had the cast removed from my hand ...  Also, if you want, I can roll some rounds and we can road trip to Carters off 1960 and let you try the 458 first hand .... good way to drum up business for deer season as well. Marty ter Weeme Teppo Jutsu LLC

I don't like going to Carter's but if you guys do this can I join you ??

Count me in as one of the twenty!

I'm still bummed about not ordering long ago from Tony. In fact, after crimping a few weeks leisure to set aside the cash for two uppers, one in .50AE and another in the .458, I gave Tony a call, plus an email to order. However he turned me down, apologized, was very nice about it too, but it was the same week that he was discontinuing manufacture. A week later, his website was down and he posted his parting notice here at AR15.com and the Tromix site read as "Closed".

I'm a simple man and the flat top upper with minimal doo-dads works for me. Complexity leads to complicity. (However I would like a threaded muzzle end for my Pre-ban, with option to install a good muzzle-brake through my own volition and discretion).

Marty: Do you have a proprietary muzzle brake designed specifically for the .458 or one you recommend? I imagine the recoil is substantially significant, proabably not overbearing, but a muzzlebrake would kindle accuracy.  

OK; so anyone else? PLEASE!!?? $675 sounds excellent to me, my cash/credit-card is waiting Marty!


NRA/CRPA/FCSA/GDPA (Gray Davis' Pain in the Ass!)

Hi Guys,

    DaveS has set up a thread for the group buy idea:  www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=138911

Quoted: BrouHaHa - yup, remember chatting at the Astro Arena show, hope to be at the Nov show after having just had the cast removed from my hand ...  Also, if you want, I can roll some rounds and we can road trip to Carters off 1960 and let you try the 458 first hand .... good way to drum up business for deer season as well.

Sure!  That would be AWESOME!


Cnatra, Come along!  We'll have a party!  I don't like Carter's either, but I'm sure it WILL help Marty get some more business with all the deer hunters that will be there sighting in.

Bring along your Avatar or I won't talk to you

Quoted: Bring along your Avatar or I won't talk to you

I dunno if I can trust you with her!

Brouhaha/CNatra -

Carters is not my favorite, but only other option is off 2854 ... forget them name.  Neither is ideal.  I love the statement they make at cease fire "We appreciate no-one handling any firearms while people are down range".  The folks down range appreciate it too! (that is why some of them carry their personal sidearms down range with them ...)

OK, let me work out timing, it would be middle to late next month, I have to be in Tampa for a little ...

Moving other questions to the GP thread (muzzle brakes and threading)

Marty ter Weeme
Teppo Jutsu LLC