User Panel
Posted: 11/11/2005 4:15:15 PM EDT
Purchased a carbine in July of this year.
Had extraction problems with Radway Green SS-109 right out of the box. XM193 & XM855 functioned fine so that is what I use. The factory (Chuck?) told me it was ammo related, not related to lack of chrome lining, if I wanted they would take the gun back and re-ream the chamber. Fair enough. It still bugged me that my two shootin buddies Bushmasters with chrome lined chambers/barrels had no issues with this ammo out of the same can. Not wanting to be without the gun during our short Chicagoland season I opted to shoot ammo the gun liked and pawn off the remaining SS-109 to guys with more dependable rifles. The gun ran fine with my new batch of ammo and needless to say I was a happy camper. Then the rear takedown pin came all the way out of the receiver. The receiver was damaged perfectly in line with the spring loaded detent causing the detent to go flying. Back when the rifle was new it required a nylon punch to push the pin far enough to seperate the upper from the lower. After the first 500 rounds (first time out) it never required the punch. This is the only time a punch was required to break down the rifle. I suspect that there was manufacturing debri in the channel of the pin and by using the punch the receiver was weakened OR it was just a defective lower. The factory has decided to NOT stand behind their product. They are willing to sell me a new receiver though. Now I am not a poor man, actually I do very well. But I have already spent over 800 dollars on an ammo sensitive gun that has a broken receiver after less than 4 months. I am done with them. They don't get anymore of my money. They could have replaced a part that costs them 100 bucks or so and I would have been a happy customer, in spite of the ammo sensitivity. Instead they have alienated me. Sorry for the length of the post, I am still steamed. Ron Thomas |
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Wow, mine is flawless so far and runs all ammo I've put in it. But mine is chrome lined...
ETA: Plus the zipper was jacked up on my carry case and they RMAed it right away and sent me a new one as soon as they had them in stock. Awesome service. |
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One reason I purchased this gun was feedback such as yours.
Maybe their success and government contracts has allowed them to be more selective on how they treat their warrenty returns. Twice I have been put on the defesive while on the phone with them. Once when I asked whether lack of chrome lining had anything to do with the extraction problem. The second time they brought up the marred threads on the buffer tube. They are the ones that staked it, I installed a single point sling attachment which required unscrewing it. I re-assembled it and didn't stake it and it never came loose. Why I had to explain myself when this doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand I don't know. For a hundred bucks (new stripped reciever) they told me they don't need my business. |
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Jeez...I had my return incident with them after the contract...and my case goes for more than $100.
Maybe the RRA rep on here can do something because this just doesn't sound like the same company I dealt with. I'd hate to think my (and others on here) awesome impressions of their product steered you wrong...I hope they make good. |
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Nobody steered me wrong. I acknowledge that my experience is somewhat unusual. On the other hand my experience is what it is. The ammo issue rolled off my shoulders due to the gun working with the new bulk ammo purchase of XM193. But it welled up as an issue when I was dismissed by the factory so readily about the broken receiver. The receiver was replaced by me with another NM receiver before I sent the broken one in. My range closes Dec 1st and I didn't want to be without at the end of the season. I also put a VLTOR stock on it from BRAVO CO (+1). Now there is a company that knows how to treat it's customers. I'm not holding my breath for them to make it right, especially after publically airing dirty laundry on an internet forum board. There didn't seem to be any give when I spoke to them on the phone. |
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Damn, that sucks.
You didn't have it with you at the Blastfest, did you? WIZZO |
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Yes, that's what I shot the match with. I replaced everything before the Blastfest and match out of pocket. I figured they would warranty it and I would build a 20" to put an ACOG on. I was checking out npd's ACOG and I am sold on it for my next rifle. Just kinda took me by surprise when he told me they weren't covering it. Pretty flabergasted actually. I don't think I will bother having them check the chamber, I'll just shoot specific ammo in it. |
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Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with RRA 45RON. I have four RRA rifles and I have shot the Radway SS-109 through them without any issues. Granted accuracy with the Radway was ok, Winchester Q3131A seems to function and group the best (besides Black Hills 69gr).
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I had an issue with them and got the blow-off also. I called back and asked for the sales manager and was put through to a lady (can't remember her name) who apologized for the mix-up and the attitude of the guy who answered the phone (she knew by my description who it was) and made it absolutely right. They may have some jackass working there who shouldn't be, but they made it right for me at least. If they don't make it right for you, I may have to rethink my next RRA purchase.
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Do you have a picture of the damage? I'd be curious to see what the failure looked like. |
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Ron,
While we certainly sympathize with you on this issue, we have to draw a line somewhere. Our limited lifetime warranty covers failures due to manufacturing defects, and while we try to be quite liberal in our interpretation of that limitation, we really can't call it a failure of the part or the assembly in your situation . When we received your RMA, our production manager and inspection department did a detailed inspection of your lower. The determination was made that the material was broken out of the lower when the takedown pin was driven past the second (open) detent position and the detent was forced out of the receiver with the pin, breaking out the small portion of the exterior wall of the receiver. We have experienced this on prior occasions (neither of which was covered under warranty either), and in studying the issue is was determined that this can only happen when the takedown pin (on any lower) is driven past the second position. The channel in the takedown pin that the detent's nose rides in between the open and closed postions doesn't extend past that point, and the detent physicaly has no place to go but laterally with the pin, which mean it goes out the side of the receiver in the area behind the pin where the spring-loaded detent "rides" under normal circumstances. I'm sorry that you feel like you got a raw deal on this, but in your situation we are being consistent with our action in the previous identical instances. We did offer to rectify the problem by replacing the lower receiver (at your expense) and transferring the parts from the broken lower to the new one (at no charge). You opted not to have us replace the lower ( an offer that is still open, by the way), which was your choice to make. If you want to change your mind and have us replace the lower, we can still do so. Please call Scott in our sales department (309-792-5780)if that is the case. Thanks. Steve/RRA |
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And as I explained, the first time this rifle was broke down at the store they couldn't get the upper seperated from the lower. For some reason the pin wouldn't clear the upper. After they used the punch (that was designed to not go too far) they were able to break it down.
The pin came out in my hand 3 months later. I appreciate the fact that you have to draw lines. This rigidness that doesn't allow for the fact that maybe I didn't do the damage is what irks me. Why should I continue to spend my money on your products? What if I was a college student that saved for two years for this rifle and this happened? Not everyone can afford to eat this like I can. And now having been burned why should I continue to spend my money on your products? It seems short sighted to me. If there was obvious damage from misuse I could see your point. The amount of material that broke is about the size of the detent and is what, less than 1/16 thick? Something was in the groove of the pin keeping the pin from clearing the upper. That is the only way the pin could have been driven too far. |
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Ron,
We certainly don't want to argue the point with you. I think every owner of a new RRA rifle will tell you that they are all tight when new, and most probably did use a punch or other device to start the pin. When broken in, they still tend to be snug, but generally can be started with a litle assistance (generally a light tap from a plastic punch or similiar device-I've even used the back end of a plastic pen)and then pulled the rest of the way out. If the damage was done on the first attempt to take it down, the pin would have come out then, and every subsequent time that you had the rifle taken down. Any foreign material in the channel would have caused the problem the first time, not the last. As the rifle had already been test-fired here, taken down to be cleaned after test-firing, and reassembled without incident precludes damage or debris at that point. The damage had to have occurred on this last take down, when the pin came all the way out and the detent was lost. I've personally reviewed this RMA with the sales manager, production manager, general manager, and one of the owners. We've all looked at the damage to the receiver. Unfortunately, as I have previously indicated and which was also communicated to you by the sales staff, this damage is not a warranty-covered manufacturing failure. We believe our offer to you was fair under the circumstances and still stand behind that offer. Thank you. Steve/RRA |
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Spoke with Scott this afternoon. He is a nice guy and we have agreed to disagree. I have taken them up on their offer, they will replace the lower (at dealer cost) and re-assemble as noted above. Not the way I thought it would go down when I first sent it in but oh well...
Having decided to take them up on their offer I have to eat these words |
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Ron,
I'm glad that we could resolve this situation. We understand your position and we do appreciate your business with us. Thanks. Steve/RRA |
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Very interesting thread! As someone who has a RRA Tactical Entry on order, I took great intrest in this exchange. I suppose it would have been nice to hear that RRA just replaced the offending part. However, I was impresed with the time and effort RRA took to investigate and rectify you situation. Although you were not completely satisfied with the outcome, I think RRA did a pretty reasonable job of trying to make things right with you. They were polite and had good communication. Something you would probably not receive from some other manufactures. All in all I come away with a sense that RRA values your/our business.
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I own both a RRA M4 and one of their 1911 pistols. I have to echo that their products are amazing but their service is among the worst I've encountered.
First, my rifle was supposed to be delivered in 4-6 weeks after ordering, but it took almost 14 weeks and RRA was not very accomodating when my dealer called to inquire on the status. Then when the rifle finally ships they shipped it to the wrong dealer. "Oops, we'll send you another in a week or two." After receiving the rifle it was well worth the wait, but it didn't end there..... After a positive ownership experience with my RRA M4 I decided to buy one of their 1911s. It has Heinie sights and I wanted to check on getting that switched to a Novaks style system. I called RRA three times in total. The first two times a lady placed me on hold for a while then told me to call back. The third time (at least a week later) an employee wrote down my name and number and said they'd have someone call me back. I never did hear back from them and that was probably two months ago. I have a policy, if I have my hard earned money in hand and am willing to spend it on a product I refuse to consistently go out of my way to attempt to provide someone with my business when they make it as difficult as possible. In a business like this with a number of manufacturers producing nearly identical products you'd think there would be more of an emphasis on customer service to differentiate one AR/1911 manufacturer from the rest of the pack. But I guess someone hasn't heard of TQM and the crucial importance of customer service. |
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TQM is a scam built for and by weenies who think everything is black and white or fits into a perfect mold. Real life isn't that way, and while it sucks to not have things go our own way, thats life sometimes. I don't doubt you had a problem, but don't get carried away. RRA sounds like they are having growing pains, it happens. |
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RRA resolved my problem with the soft case that came with my carbine ASAP and no questions asked.
If every customer service issue I ever had with other products was resolved as professionally and satisfactorily as how RRA resolved this I would be pretty frickin' happy. |
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I cant comment on the pin issue, but my RRA entry tactical has fed everything I have tried to feed it, from Black hills to wolf and everything in between without a hickup.
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Damn, that sucks dude.
Now maybe some folks will understand how many of us have no allegience to a brand. We run what works. And the only proof of function is range time! At least you held up your end of the deal, and used the damn thing before you needed to depend on it! |
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Update 11/29/05
Received my old and new receivers yesterday. The new receiver has my NM trigger group installed in it at no cost to me and it is what you would expect, excellent, the first stage is a little longer than I remember but it breaks lite and clean. They also decided to replace my buffer tube at no cost. The old one had damaged threads from disassembly (they were staked) to install a single point sling attachment. They have a limited lifetime warranty and they will not warranty something that falls outside the boundries they have set, even if the customer raises a stink. In hindsight while not budging on the receiver they made three moves to make me happy. 1 - replaced receiver at dealer cost 2 - install my old FCG in the new receiver for free 3 - replace buffer tube under warranty They haven't left me much room to bitch and to tell you the truth their actions plus time have drained me of any desire to bitch. Sometimes sh!t happens and they tried to lesson the pain without breaking their policy of what is covered. Good enough. |
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I have been a Rock River dealer for 4 years now and have delivered over 100 rifles to Dallas, Ft.Worth, Grand Prairie, Tyler, Gainesville, Grapevine, Rhome, Palmer, Como, Denton Police Departments over the last few months and I can assure you these guys are not buying these rifles to sit in their safes or underneath their beds. Each and every officer has to qualify with these rifles before they can carry them on duty. I have only had 1 (one) rifle that had a problem and that was simply a bent gas ring which was easily fixed by replacing the ring. Sometimes problems occur in manufacturing a product and sometimes problems occur with operators. Rock River, and all other manufacturers, stand behind their failures not failures caused by others. Buy a Rock River with confidence, there is a reason why law enforcement is buying so many of them.
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regalgseguy,
I ordered the same gun last year right after the ban lifted and I love it. No issues, very accurate, and to be honest it has made me think I want to sell my 1988 Colt Heavy Barrel Match to buy another couple RRA models. I did buy the RRA Dominator mount to use an EOTech with the A2 style rear sight and there was a small issue with that mount, but they replaced it right away no questions. Apparently there was a small clearance issue with a few of the first ones and then that was resolved. My new dominator mount functions fine. I think you will like your choice. Good shooting. |
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I'm sorry to hear you had some trouble, 45Ron, but it sounds like RRA dealt with you fairly, even if not in the way you originally hoped.
My own experience with RRA customer service has been positive. I purchased an Entry Tactical in March of 1994, and after 100-200 dry firings on snap caps (I never even got to the range for live firing), the two-stage trigger turned into a looooong one stage trigger. I contacted my dealer, sent it back, and RRA repaired it and returned it in short order. It has been fine since. Hopefully your rifle will also give you plenty of good service now that it has been repaired. Good luck, and good shooting! |
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Well, having worked retail about all my life here's my take for what its worth. The customer abuses a part to the point of failure and it breaks. Then gets pissed off when the manufacturer won't fix it for free. Some of you need to get your priorities right. I've seen some of the damnedest things you have ever seen and the customer has the guts to tell me that he didn't break it. Ok, how did those screwdriver marks get all over it? I'm retiring in three years and will be glad to be rid of the whiners who think the world owe them a living. Whats wrong with just admitting you screwed it up? No big deal. Ever consider that the Radway Green ammo might have been defective? A chrome lined bore and chamber won't help if the ammo is defective. That receiver wouldn't have broken out by itself. The only way it could have broken was abuse. Same with the tube. It was ok until you dicked with it.
I have two RRA rifles and love them. The pins were tight when new but just a tap on the end of the pin with a screwdriver handle got them free enough to pull out. They are both very accurate, the triggers are great, and I will purchase more RRA products. The people there have been friendly and very helpful to me at all times. Great company, great people. Cheers, Phil |
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Excellent update. I am glad you are happy enough with their actions. Now about that RadwayGreen. Me and a buddy split a case. It wouldn't run in my WOA 16" 1/7 midlength stainless, nor my Bushmaster 16" 1/9 carbine length chrome. It ran fine in his Model1Sales 16" 1/9 moly. I tried again and it worked in both of mine, AFTER I had to use the forward assist on the first 3-5 rounds. Fiznuckin ammo, I will not be going back for the other two cans, that's for sure. Blah blah blah, enjoy the new lower. Mike |
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When I first got my RRA A2...my pins were tight also. I pushed my thumb hard against a pin while I pulled back and let go of the charging handle. It jarred the rifle a wee bit, enough to allow the pin to move in enough for me to pull from the other side. They free'd up after a few times, so now I just use my thumb and they push right out.
YMMV, but I like my RRA. It eats what it's fed, is more accurate than I am, and goes bang everytime. |
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my whole rifle was WAY tight. not complaining, but I did break the buffer tube lock ring trying to get stock off. Seems that when rifle was assembled something was done to buffer tube to keep lock ring right where it was. looks like buffer tube threads were modified to keep it in one spot. I couldn't care less cause I put a magpul stock on and was chucking ro selling the RRA stock, but I can see where too tight is too tight. On the other hand, having to force out the takedown pins is a PLEASURE after having gone thourgh many franken builds where upper lower fit was shaky. My new RRA 9mm is ROCK solid.
Buying a RRA 223 20" A4 sometime next week, I was unsure till I Gott he 9mm, but if that upper lower fit is standard, then I want a RRA 223 too! |
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My encounter with RRA was quite a different story. About a year ago or so I purchased a new Entry Tactical from RRA. The lower receiver had an apperance defect from the moment I received it. I spoke with a wonderful lady on the phone that gave me an RMA number and back it went. Within a weeks time I had a brand new rifle at the door. If I recall I think it was in the 37xxx range. They completely replace the rifle with a new one, no question asked. I now have four RRA rifles and I am perfectly satisfied with all of them. By the way I have scewed up a lower before when building up a stripped one, and I had to eat it. RRA is a great company and great people. Thanks Amber!
Troy |
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Well I'd have to add that your QA isn't the best. I actually recieved a complete gun from you guys a while back that came from the factory with an area 1 inch long by 1/2 inch wide near the muzzle that was clearly rusted to shit. |
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just to bring out the important part of that post : I have a RRA return authorization...IT has been sitting on my dining room table for about a month now |
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didn't mean to be (overly) antagonistic. ETA: just meant to imply that, although no manufacturer is PERFECT, RRA here have done their part and it's time to do yours. A company that sells a faulty product then offers to take a look at it and replace it if necessary has done their part. And yes, that DOES make up for the 2 cases of poor QC. Claiming that you got a faulty product doesn't say anything about RRA, it says more about laws of probability. Saying they issued an RMA and are waiting for it, BUT in the last line of a lnegthy post that damns RRA for lack of QC is not proper. There's a difference between a loack of QC - IMO more than these few cases - and a bad company. |
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I too experinced an "out of the box" problem
with a new RRA. While breaking in the Rifle, and after firing 60 or so rounds, The bolt locked aft, partially lodged in the buffer tube. It too was blamed by RRA as an ammunition "issue" then.. However I was shooting 2 other ARs that day 2 Colts, infact. Same ammo, same magazines, no failures... RRAs instant "diagnosis" over the telephone certainly spoke volumes to me... It must be said, after I disassembled, inspected, then re-assembled the rifle. No other malfunctions occurred. The rifle has had 600+ rounds through it to date. During a rapid fire exercise,the RRA M4 handguards actually began to melt, and separated. They've been replaced with a set of Colt M4 handguards, with no further problems noted. myit |
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This thread is reaching an end. Ron is satisfied. RRA is satisfied. None of us want to watch this turn into a thirteen page on-going flame fest, so I'm ging to lock it down.
For individual problems, please continue to contact our sales or technical personel. Every diagnosis will not be perfect over the phone, but the techs certainly try to provide an answer. Sometimes it will be a problem with the rifle, sometimes with the shooter, and sometimes with mags, ammo, etc...but the guys (even I take a tech call now and then)do try to their best. I'm probably the first one who will tell you to send it in and let us evaluate the rifle, upper, etc..to determine what the problem is. Thanks. Steve/RRA |
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