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I guess anything can break. We get pretty cold weather here in Montana, but I haven't tried any torture test on them. That being said they are great mags and I have many in my personal collection as well as a ton of regular USGI mags
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Interesting.
Sorry/Thanks for your sacrifice! So...should PMags have a plastic body with metal feed lips? or would that defeat their original purpose. OR, are we just dealing with the failure threshold that all things have? |
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Thanx for the report.
Thankfully, it almost never gets that cold in NC. And I'll keep right on buying PMAGs. |
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OMG!!! I thought pmags were made with Chuck Norris's tears and couldn't break?!?!
Oh well... so much for that myth. |
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Interesting. Sorry/Thanks for your sacrifice! So...should PMags have a plastic body with metal feed lips? or would that defeat their original purpose. OR, are we just dealing with the failure threshold that all things have? I'd bet that it's just that plastic has less of a tolerance to cold then aluminum or steel. It's pretty well known that plastic becomes brittle when exposed to the cold, steel and aluminum does also but it can deal with a greater range of temps and maintain a greater safety margin of strength. I don't see it as a dealbreaker in any way, just that most plastics tend to crack or shatter in the cold far easier then when warm. |
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Approximately how long had they been in the cold prior to the test?
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I suppose one needs to REALLY determine the role of the magazine in a fighting situation.
Should the mag be treated like the bumper of a racecar? i.e. works until a smash, then is replaced? What is the TRUE target market for the magazine? A mag hitting the deck may or may not get retrieved. If it breaks, so what. I would be more concerned if the mag shattered getting inserted into the magwell. |
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I suppose one needs to REALLY determine the role of the magazine in a fighting situation. Should the mag be treated like the bumper of a racecar? i.e. works until a smash, then is replaced? What is the TRUE target market for the magazine? A mag hitting the deck may or may not get retrieved. If it breaks, so what. I would be more concerned if the mag shattered getting inserted into the magwell. Market is important. Sports shooter, no issue. If it shatters under it's own weight when cold, what happens when 250 pounds of joe flops down on it, and squishes it between ESAPI and rock? FWIW, I love my only PMAG. |
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Uh oh
TaylorWSO, thanks for the info. I think any product has a certain point at which it will fail. |
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Sorry if I missed it in your post..... I know you mention -15, but is that [also] the temp you drop-tested them at?
Thanks for the sacrifice. |
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OMG!!! I thought pmags were made with Chuck Norris's tears and couldn't break?!?! Oh well... so much for that myth. I heard that Chuck Norris gave Magpul 1 tear to used for Pmag production(so it may be really be diluted at this point), in exchange Chuck received 1 million dollars, and 3 ACRs (one for each hand), not that Chuck needs a high reliability weapon, as all weapons he uses always work. |
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I guess a better question would be how they function in a rifle at those temperatures
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I'm sorry I think your methods are flawed......what the hell are you doing out in -15 temps. My Pmags have no problems in those conditions because I would stay inside. I'm still stuck on the fact that you said -15 is not that cold. However it is good to know that the product is really so good that we are all doing these pretty extreme tests to find their limits. Cudos to Magpul for making such a reliable product.
ETA: I left a Pmag flopping around the deck of my patrol boat for most of the summer, I eventually took it to the range and functioned with no problems. |
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My mags don't tend to drop feedlips first on to concrete in any scenario I've ever done to date. Not once, ever.
While an interesting test for material durability, I'm not sure it's useful beyond that.... Has anyone else seen mags drop on the deck feedlips first more then 1 time in their whole life? Please spare me weird stories of the one mag, that you had do it one time while at band camp too. |
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I guess a better question would be how they function in a rifle at those temperatures That was answered in his OP. |
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Approximately how long had they been in the cold prior to the test? about 2 hours and to the other replys, I've had aluminum mags break the welds when hit on the top corner, not directly on the feed lips when cold-everything breaks when it gets cold enough. This test demonstrates that the pmags and metal mags fair the same when cold when hit on the feed lips-none will work, I believe Pmags out-do metal mags when warmer, as the billion "torture" test were done in warm weather have shown. |
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I suppose one needs to REALLY determine the role of the magazine in a fighting situation. Should the mag be treated like the bumper of a racecar? i.e. works until a smash, then is replaced? What is the TRUE target market for the magazine? A mag hitting the deck may or may not get retrieved. If it breaks, so what. I would be more concerned if the mag shattered getting inserted into the magwell. I wanted to test the long term usage rate for guys in cold weather- THIS WAS NOT DUPLICATING COMBAT SITUATONS. As to the true "target" they can do their own test. I work for uncle sugar, and his "stuff" gets treated like dirt and replaced when broken, guess what, we may not be able to buy Pmags in a few months and I wanted to make sure they can get through the cold weather were I live, in MY conditions, not in the sandbox, not in the south, but how they work in my environment. If I drop a mag when fighting it will get left unless it is the last one. I wanted to do this test to see what happens to pmags in the cold, would they be worth it to the guys in the north as a long term mag. If they break every time they hit the ground in cold weather, then a Al mag would be a better option for guys in the north. I have held out buying them because 8 months out of a year its cold up here. If i have to baby the mags when it gets cold then I would go all metal as they work. |
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Sorry if I missed it in your post..... I know you mention -15, but is that [also] the temp you drop-tested them at? Thanks for the sacrifice. yes |
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My mags don't tend to drop feedlips first on to concrete in any scenario I've ever done to date. Not once, ever. While an interesting test for material durability, I'm not sure it's useful beyond that.... Has anyone else seen mags drop on the deck feedlips first more then 1 time in their whole life? Please spare me weird stories of the one mag, that you had do it one time while at band camp too. I had a mag drop right on the feed lip and it made it useless, but it could be bent back, that's why i went with the worst place on the mag. I wanted to see if it would hold up. The durability issue is correct, is this a viable option for cold weather users- I think it is and dropping these in snow is a non-issue which nearly everything is covered in snow. |
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Quoted:I had a mag...
Singular? One time in how many mag changes? I do believe it's good for material durability observations, but not so much for realistic failure analysis, since most mags (999,999,999,000 out of 1,000,000,000,000) will drop on the endplate. It was worthwhile to see that the material would fail at extremely low temps, but would the mag be inoperable in a normal freefall to the concrete as from a "speed reload". All my mags hit with the endplate...FWIW.... |
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If you can brave a second test, I'd love to know how the with cover test would turn out.
The covers slightly depress the rounds, taking pressure off of the feed lips. I suspect that the cover would pop off but no other change would occour. Wes |
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If you can brave a second test, I'd love to know how the with cover test would turn out. The covers slightly depress the rounds, taking pressure off of the feed lips. I suspect that the cover would pop off but no other change would occour. See UAFGRAD's test. Should be his 3rd response here: http://www.weaponforums.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=43&t=338530 |
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I'm sorry I think your methods are flawed......what the hell are you doing out in -15 temps. My Pmags have no problems in those conditions because I would stay inside. I'm still stuck on the fact that you said -15 is not that cold. However it is good to know that the product is really so good that we are all doing these pretty extreme tests to find their limits. Cudos to Magpul for making such a reliable product. ETA: I left a Pmag flopping around the deck of my patrol boat for most of the summer, I eventually took it to the range and functioned with no problems. He lives in Alaska. -15 ISN'T THAT COLD. I did 3 years at Elmendorf, and -15 is good snowboarding weather That, and below are what Alaskans deal with every winter. It's normal there. Honestly, from 0* F down to -20 I really don't feel a difference. |
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I'm sorry I think your methods are flawed......what the hell are you doing out in -15 temps. My Pmags have no problems in those conditions because I would stay inside. I'm still stuck on the fact that you said -15 is not that cold. However it is good to know that the product is really so good that we are all doing these pretty extreme tests to find their limits. Cudos to Magpul for making such a reliable product. . Not an extreme test by any means. The are two Army brigades, a few Air force units and the state National Guard in Alaska that make it a habit to train outside in the winter. In the Anchorage, Fort Richardson, Elmendorf AFB area it's been around -15. Up north around the Fairbanks, Fort Wainwright, and Eilson AFB area it's been a shitload colder. These are the conditions we train in, recreationaly shoot in, and potentially go to war in. Yes, cudos to Magpul for making a great product. However, the cold will fuck almost anything up. I bet your Magpul Mags work fine on your beach, though. |
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My mags don't tend to drop feedlips first on to concrete in any scenario I've ever done to date. Not once, ever. While an interesting test for material durability, I'm not sure it's useful beyond that.... Has anyone else seen mags drop on the deck feedlips first more then 1 time in their whole life? Please spare me weird stories of the one mag, that you had do it one time while at band camp too. I took a class with a trainer (nationally recognized, and a contributor to SWAT magazine) who had us do a LOT of reloads where we dropped a partially loaded mag from the rifle to the ground (pavement). In that case it normally lands feedlips down (and about 50% of the aluminum mags I used for that class had damaged feedlips after 2 days of this). I must admit that I was a little disappointed in the aluminum mags which had performed flawlessly in other classes, with different techniques, and dirt surfaces. ETA: It was also quite common for the aluminum mags to spit out one round on impact with the pavement. I regret that I did not have any Pmags with me as I would have been curious to se how they performed. |
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Quoted:I took a class with a trainer (nationally recognized, and a contributor to SWAT magazine) who had us do a LOT of reloads where we dropped a partially loaded mag from the rifle to the ground (pavement). In that case it normally lands feedlips down (and about 50% of the aluminum mags I used for that class had damaged feedlips after 2 days of this).
I must admit that I was a little disappointed in the aluminum mags which had performed flawlessly in other classes, with different techniques, and dirt surfaces. ETA: It was also quite common for the aluminum mags to spit out one round on impact with the pavement. I regret that I did not have any Pmags with me as I would have been curious to se how they performed. Ok, I've taken his carbine course 3x, and mine don't hit the deck with feedlips down - as I never cleared dirt or debris from the mouth of the magazine. So maybe I'm missing something.... |
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Ok, I've taken his carbine course 3x, and mine don't hit the deck with feedlips down - as I never cleared dirt or debris from the mouth of the magazine. So maybe I'm missing something.... Whats the worst place a mag could be hit? The feedlips, so that's where I wanted to test it. I know it works fine in warmer weather and on the baseplate but I wnated to see what it will do. Pretty much same as the bus test, do your mags get run over by trucks and cars in a carbine coures? No, but its nice to know that they can do it. Was the test invalid- no just a data point. I just wanted to see the limits-thats all, a small data point to add to the others. |
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dropped mine (a new one by the way) from 3 ft It split about 2.5 inches Needless to say, it is now worthless. was this on the feed lips? or the baseplate? Feedlips I need to get a new memory card reader so I can post pics It starts in the top back corner and runs down the back of the mag diagonally This is a more common stress failure but in most cases the rounds will feed just fine in the rifle. Send it back and we will replace it and look it over for anything that we need to address. what date/ I have some newer ones and will try them. |
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I guess a better question would be how they function in a rifle at those temperatures Yes, -42 with no problem. Gun ran fine as well (absoutely bone dry) |
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I'm sorry I think your methods are flawed......what the hell are you doing out in -15 temps. My Pmags have no problems in those conditions because I would stay inside. I'm still stuck on the fact that you said -15 is not that cold. However it is good to know that the product is really so good that we are all doing these pretty extreme tests to find their limits. Cudos to Magpul for making such a reliable product. ETA: I left a Pmag flopping around the deck of my patrol boat for most of the summer, I eventually took it to the range and functioned with no problems. Yes, in Alaska, especially interior and norther Alaska it is a real possibility. Many police officers carry their AR's in a case in the trunk of their car. We have been at -30 or colder for the last several days now, and its predicted to stay that way for some time. I too broke a PMag to see how well it reacted in the cold. It was a fall of similar height, fully loaded onto the feed lips. Mine broker differently (as soon as I can get the pics up I will). I am not surprised and it in no way changes my opinion of PMags (which I have a ton of). I simply wanted to know what its limits were. I also dropped it The one that broke had been out overnight at a temp of -40 IIRC. I did an earlier test in the low -30's with drops up to 7+ ft and had no problems, just normal scuff marks on the mags. |
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If you can brave a second test, I'd love to know how the with cover test would turn out. The covers slightly depress the rounds, taking pressure off of the feed lips. I suspect that the cover would pop off but no other change would occour. Wes Cover shattered but no damage that I could see (full loaded magazine) |
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Can't recall offhand the temps he operates in, but if BeachPatrol would like to "see" a little taste of this, danomite has his own "starring" thread over in Anvil Arms' industry forum:
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Yes, in Alaska, especially interior and norther Alaska it is a real possibility. Many police officers carry their AR's in a case in the trunk of their car. We have been at -30 or colder for the last several days now, and its predicted to stay that way for some time.
I'm sorry I think your methods are flawed......what the hell are you doing out in -15 temps. My Pmags have no problems in those conditions because I would stay inside. I'm still stuck on the fact that you said -15 is not that cold. However it is good to know that the product is really so good that we are all doing these pretty extreme tests to find their limits. Cudos to Magpul for making such a reliable product. ETA: I left a Pmag flopping around the deck of my patrol boat for most of the summer, I eventually took it to the range and functioned with no problems. I too broke a PMag to see how well it reacted in the cold. It was a fall of similar height, fully loaded onto the feed lips. Mine broker differently (as soon as I can get the pics up I will). I am not surprised and it in no way changes my opinion of PMags (which I have a ton of). I simply wanted to know what its limits were. I also dropped it The one that broke had been out overnight at a temp of -40 IIRC. I did an earlier test in the low -30's with drops up to 7+ ft and had no problems, just normal scuff marks on the mags. Alaska Officer Dan - Life of a LEO on the North Slope - Lots of pictures Dan is a big LaRue/Magpul user. It's been a real eye-opener for me, a native South Texican who moved 8 hours north and now lives in the Texas Panhandle..... which I consider "cold". My sister [now] lives in Montana and sees sub-zero temps in the winter, but she's not a "gun person," to put it mildly, so she's done no cold-weather testing of which to speak. |
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Maybe they could do what Arsenal does with AK-47 mags or what Glock does with their pistol mags: insert a metal feedlip ring within the plastic ?
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My mags don't tend to drop feedlips first on to concrete in any scenario I've ever done to date. Not once, ever. While an interesting test for material durability, I'm not sure it's useful beyond that.... Has anyone else seen mags drop on the deck feedlips first more then 1 time in their whole life? Please spare me weird stories of the one mag, that you had do it one time while at band camp too. Fanboys got their panties up in a knot over a the results of live real world scenario. Not everyone lives in a warm temperate climate like a parents basement. |
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Here was my experience with the torture test Ok Back to tougher in Alaska SO I finally got pics uploaded Here is where it set for a period of about 18 hours. This was the "hi" temp for the period http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799663/PMagFailure3.jpg The mag was fully loaded and dropped from a height of 36" directly onto the feedlips (as previously requested) striking bare concrete. Once it hit the ground, all but 6 of the rounds exited the magazine on to the ground. Here is the aftermath. The exten of the crack is marked with the redline. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799663/PMagfailure1.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799663/PMagFailure2.jpg My take on things..... Although I hoped that the Chuck Norris Tears would bring super powers to the mag, as with all things made, it is breakable. I wasnt too surprised that it broke. Mag will be going back to Magpul for them to look at and hopefully the are able to find something that could prevent this problem in the future. The reality of it is that this test was designed to force faliure with the mag. It is a fairly unrealistic situation (though mags in Alaska are commonly exposed to these temperatures for extended periods). FWIW, I have a ton of PMags and even placed a large order after this happened. Im still convienced that this is the best mag on the market. Thats just what mine did. Only the temp was 10 above |
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Maybe they could do what Arsenal does with AK-47 mags or what Glock does with their pistol mags: insert a metal feedlip ring within the plastic ? Magpul has stated that they do not feel there is enough material to properly insert metal feed lips and still have the reliablity that they have on the other tests that the PMAG shines in compared to other mags. It simply comes down to making everything fit and balancing the trade offs to advantages. Wes |
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ok. heres the solution. all you people who live in cold weather climates send your P-mags here to CA (for rebuild kits of course.) and I will send you all brand new metal mags. its a win win... :)
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metal feed-lips are not the solution for breakage... on most drop tests the metal just acts as a ridig part to where the plastic and metal meet just becomes the new stress point and snaps there most of the time depending how its dropped.
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ok. heres the solution. all you people who live in cold weather climates send your P-mags here to CA (for rebuild kits of course.) and I will send you all brand new metal mags. its a win win... :) As long as your mags were made by HK, Im in |
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Quoted:...just a data point....
We agree. Thanks for taking the time to do it. |
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I Live In Florida all of you in cold weather just send them all to me right now
thanks today 1/3 temp 79 |
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I still want to know the dates of the "cold wx mags" I saw the video magpul had of the -30 mag but want to test some more on my newer oned before it gets too warm.
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Interesting.
I'll do everything I can to stay out of -40f weather. Wait . . . . I already do that. |
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what about the tire test, drive over it loaded I did that test with with my 05 dodge diesel to day I put a empty pmag under the front tire––Its did not crush. I put a new one under the back tires and spun out in it––it shattered. the temp was 10^ I froze a new one in my freezer at 0 and dropped it 36" loaded on concrete the First time it bounced. The 2nd time it split down the back 2". I did the same tests with my D&H mags. Under the front tires it did not crush. Under the back tire spin out it was crushed. I froze a new one and dropped it loaded 36'' on concrete the first time one of The feed lips bent. The only thing with the p mags it when there relly cold the are more brittle and more likely to break the my D&H mags. That being sad, in my mined the p mag most of the time is a little bit tuffer then the D&H GI mags my 2 cents. 223dude |
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I'm curious to see how MSAR's STG 556 mags would do under the same conditions. They claim to be made of better material thank PMags and will be releasing AR mags made of the same material after the Shot Show.
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