 Dingeman 
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Joined: Jul 2009  OH, USA
 Posts: 1 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/25/2009 11:04:47 PM
This is my first post. I have been lurking, reading and learning for about 2 years. I hope there are many others like me. Thank you all for the wit and wisdom you have imparted. You are a great asset to this Nation. Now onto my post...
So here's what got me thinking. I'm in State law enforcement in Ohio. I was at one of our annual 2 day training events. We were in a classroom session on Domestic terrorism. The speaker was our agencies liaison with the FBI on the Joint Terrorism Task Force that was set up after 9/11. They broke it into two categories; home grown terrorists influenced by Al Qaeda and the like; and everybody else. So in the first category was some of the post 9/11 arrestees from Ohio like Christopher Paul and Imam Fawaz Damra, and then the second group included all white supremest groups, militia groups, people with anti-government sentiment, and anyone else who was overly religious. This part was nothing new to me, they have gone over this a few years prior. Then came the trouble...The instructor started talking about indicators which could be used to warn us of these peoples presence. Most made sense, like if the guy has a swastika on his forehead. Some others covered more discreet body markings. I didn't have any problem with this, but then he shows us a slide of some bumper stickers. One says, "The UN is not our friend!" and the second says, "Exercise your rights, or you'll lose them." He goes on to say that these are good indicators that the person in this car is anti-government and probably violent. Now, I'm not one to let this slip by unchallenged. So I raise my hand and say, " Are you saying that these are possible indicators or probable indicators. He says, "probable." I take issue with this, "I say." "First, if you know anything about the UN, they aren't our friend. They also aren't our government, so I hardly see how that would make this person anti-government. And the second statement seems fairly innocuous. I would think that both the extreme left and the extreme right would say that a right not exercised is easily lost. So I would agree with both of those statements and I hardly think that makes me a threat." He looks right at me and says half jokingly, "maybe we should add you to our list." There was a bit of an awkward silence as we stared at each other. Then he just moved on. Later he showed more stickers that said things like, "I believe in the Bible", and abortion is wrong" At one point he showed a picture of some sort of Aryan Nation marking and said to me, "do you have one of these?" I was fuming. At a later break I consulted some of the other guys, of which there were about 50. Some said they thought the guy was way out of line and some others said they thought I should have just let it go. Everyone seemed to agree he was serious. I later made the point to him that by his measure our forefathers would be suspect. I guess at that point it struck me. This guy draws no distinction between the person who blows himself up for Allah, and the guy who doesn't like big government. Since he was trained by the Feds, I must assume they feel the same. It seems like most of the discussion and preparation here revolves around some degree or another of SHTF. I feel like that is well covered and thought out. I don't want to debate about the likeliness of one scenario or another, instead I would relish your thoughts on the scenario that concerns me the most, and which I think is the more difficult one to prepare for. You are suddenly that domestic terrorist, not because you have committed terrorist acts, but because of what you believe. They are coming for you. Now survive. You can imagine what's stacked against you. You have to survive long enough to turn public sentiment in your favor. Not unlike our forefathers and ultimately you must save your country. Here is what I think you have going for you. The Feds simply don't have enough resources, but could remedy that with foreign help. They rely heavily on local law enforcement which at least in my area will give them little support. State law enforcement is about half and half IMO. Sorry for such a meaty first post. I greatly respect your opinions. |
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bmw20
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Joined: Aug 2008 MI, USA
Posts: 1147 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/25/2009 11:23:00 PM
[Last Edit: 9/25/2009 11:23:43 PM by bmw20]
There is a pretty simple answer here.......but likely not the one you want to hear. Unfortunately, most would not survive, especially if they are also trying to keep a wife & kids alive.
One person cannot fight even 1% of what the Feds can bring to bear upon them. Even those of us that prepare and train with small groups of likeminded individuals would only be prolonging death. Know what else? I wouldn't care. The day that the .gov targets me as a terrorist for exercising my god given and/or Constitutional rights is the day that I will happily pay for what I believe in with my blood. I would never attempt or even think about inflicting harm on the Country that I love - but I will also continue to believe that smaller gov't is better than larger gov't and freedoms are greater than restrictions. When I can no longer say these things without fear of retribution from the gov't, I don't think I would want to be around anyway. |
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14TheKid
Member
Joined: Aug 2009 WI, USA
Posts: 69 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/25/2009 11:41:26 PM
Unfortunately, this guys perception is his reality and I'm sure it's the reality of others in his position too. His perception is not good for many good,
country loving, god fearing people of this great nation. I'm sure George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, and all the other great founding fathers of this country have turned in their graves and shed a tear at this type of speech. |
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batmanacw
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Team Member
Joined: Nov 2006 OH, USA
Posts: 7691 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/25/2009 11:55:56 PM
thank you for posting. We have known about this bias for a long time. Its interesting to here more confirmation.
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stormwalker
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Joined: Feb 2003 NV, USA
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Posted: 9/26/2009 12:03:06 AM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 12:03:45 AM by stormwalker]
Here's my perspective.
I too am in government law enforcement, and of the entire department we are about 70%-30% patriot vs go along get along types. the feds are severely stretched thin, they put up a great show for onezy twozy type senarios (Waco, Oklahoma city, ruby ridge) but if you have a Katrina going on in three or more places at once, they'll grid lock, be out of resources and without local help will be largely ineffectual. IF THEY STICK TO POSSE COMITATUS. if they bring in the military on it's own citizens, all bets are off and America is doomed, you'll have rouge admirals and generals disobeying the government and going with the Constitution, and others following orders from Washington. once foreign troops get on our soil to help Washington well you might just be looking at world Armageddon, WWIII for sure.  I'm not real sure how that wold actually play out.
But more to your point, I think the animus toward conservative view points are regional. I just went through a very similar terrorism briefing here in Nevada, and the topics were pro- constitution, supportive of conservatism, and pro America. they did bring up some "indicators" but nothing like as was presented like your situation. and welcome to your first post.  |
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Dingeman
Member
Joined: Jul 2009 OH, USA
Posts: 2 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:12:12 AM
The key in my mind is the changing of public perception / sentiment. There are many people around me who know my character who might not know my belief system or politics. I have started to be much more outspoken about what I believe and some people have been very shocked. My goal is to win people over with who I am and how I govern my life. That way even if I were to fall victim to some sort of witch-hunt, my martyrdom will win some who knew the real me.
I would not give the feds too much credit either. I have seen them in action and they are much more careless and sloppy than you think. If their cases were tried in my local court they would all be thrown out. They get away with much of what they do, b/c it is federal court. If I conducted my business like they do I would be fired. Also I can't reiterate enough their reliance on local law enforcement for intel and operational help, they simply don't have the manpower yet. |
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Coolrunnings
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Team Member
Joined: Sep 2006 WA, USA
Posts: 162 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:14:07 AM
Thanks for standing up. Unless guy’s like you do, we are doomed. The sad part of the 50 in the room only one, you stood up and confronted this statist nonsense. This is a cause for concern because local law enforcement will be intimidated into doing things they would not normally do because their jobs will be in pearl otherwise.
The best thing we as Americans can do is confront this un-American sentiment and challenge these people head on while we still can. You know when they cry bigotry it is because they cannot win by debating the merits of an argument, so they opt for personal attack on one’s motives and character. The left is using the opportunity to use justified fear of real terrorist threats to compartmentalize all dissenters as equally culpable. This is to implement their agenda into the mainstream. They use “reason” and fear to sell this garbage. Conservatives and those with traditional values are an obstacle to the power of a growing repressive sate. As a terrorist is a menace to the safety of the people, one individual that cherishes individual liberty is equally threatening to a State seeking an expansion of power. People will give up some liberty for security. By using incrementalism slowly over time personal liberty will be eclipsed by the dominance of a “beneficent” State. This is why conservatives are branded stupid, extremists, racists and any other demeaning name of the day. Yes we must confront these people. Ask them how did they reach their conclusions? What data can you review that you can verify their statements? Be as ruthless and as annoying as they are! You will find by using facts and exposing THEIR bigotry they will come unglued. Just be careful because you will have chosen sides. 
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armednhappy
Member
Team Member
Joined: May 2002 IA, USA
Posts: 789 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:21:14 AM
I gotta say, that is one helluva great first post.... and welcome to ARFCOM and SF.
I also have been through a few power points similar to what you describe and it honestly scares me... that the people we entrust to enforce the laws genuinly have this opinion. Forget about racial profiling, this is political profiling by the government WE (collectively) elected to preserve these very rights. Thanks for your post again... |
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Sparks59
Member
Joined: Feb 2009 KY, USA
Posts: 502 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:27:03 AM
Originally Posted By Dingeman:
This is my first post. I have been lurking, reading and learning for about 2 years. I hope there are many others like me. Thank you all for the wit and wisdom you have imparted. You are a great asset to this Nation. Now onto my post... So here's what got me thinking. I'm in State law enforcement in Ohio. I was at one of our annual 2 day training events. We were in a classroom session on Domestic terrorism. The speaker was our agencies liaison with the FBI on the Joint Terrorism Task Force that was set up after 9/11. They broke it into two categories; home grown terrorists influenced by Al Qaeda and the like; and everybody else. So in the first category was some of the post 9/11 arrestees from Ohio like Christopher Paul and Imam Fawaz Damra, and then the second group included all white supremest groups, militia groups, people with anti-government sentiment, and anyone else who was overly religious. This part was nothing new to me, they have gone over this a few years prior. Then came the trouble...The instructor started talking about indicators which could be used to warn us of these peoples presence. Most made sense, like if the guy has a swastika on his forehead. Some others covered more discreet body markings. I didn't have any problem with this, but then he shows us a slide of some bumper stickers. One says, "The UN is not our friend!" and the second says, "Exercise your rights, or you'll lose them." He goes on to say that these are good indicators that the person in this car is anti-government and probably violent. Now, I'm not one to let this slip by unchallenged. So I raise my hand and say, " Are you saying that these are possible indicators or probable indicators. He says, "probable." I take issue with this, "I say." "First, if you know anything about the UN, they aren't our friend. They also aren't our government, so I hardly see how that would make this person anti-government. And the second statement seems fairly innocuous. I would think that both the extreme left and the extreme right would say that a right not exercised is easily lost. So I would agree with both of those statements and I hardly think that makes me a threat." He looks right at me and says half jokingly, "maybe we should add you to our list." There was a bit of an awkward silence as we stared at each other. Then he just moved on. Later he showed more stickers that said things like, "I believe in the Bible", and abortion is wrong" At one point he showed a picture of some sort of Aryan Nation marking and said to me, "do you have one of these?" I was fuming. At a later break I consulted some of the other guys, of which there were about 50. Some said they thought the guy was way out of line and some others said they thought I should have just let it go. Everyone seemed to agree he was serious. I later made the point to him that by his measure our forefathers would be suspect. I guess at that point it struck me. This guy draws no distinction between the person who blows himself up for Allah, and the guy who doesn't like big government. Since he was trained by the Feds, I must assume they feel the same. It seems like most of the discussion and preparation here revolves around some degree or another of SHTF. I feel like that is well covered and thought out. I don't want to debate about the likeliness of one scenario or another, instead I would relish your thoughts on the scenario that concerns me the most, and which I think is the more difficult one to prepare for. You are suddenly that domestic terrorist, not because you have committed terrorist acts, but because of what you believe. They are coming for you. Now survive. You can imagine what's stacked against you. You have to survive long enough to turn public sentiment in your favor. Not unlike our forefathers and ultimately you must save your country. Here is what I think you have going for you. The Feds simply don't have enough resources, but could remedy that with foreign help. They rely heavily on local law enforcement which at least in my area will give them little support. State law enforcement is about half and half IMO. Sorry for such a meaty first post. I greatly respect your opinions. Thank You for your message. I think it was an eye opener. It sickens me to think the FBI has nothing better to do then portray law abiding God Fearing, U.S. Constitution believers as terrorists. What ever happened to the war on the gangs they were pursuing, I remember a dozen years ago they said they were going after them, meanwhile there are cities you don't want to walk down streets in daylight. This just makes my Irish blood boil, I want to right this minute place about 3 stickers on my Jeep, however it's raining.LOL Well you seem to be very grounded, remember your family, your parents, how do they feel about those very same subjects. You will do what's right, when the time comes, remember the Constitution, it's not about a single govt in charge, or a President. The Constitution is the American People's protection from tyranny. |
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Sparks59
Member
Joined: Feb 2009 KY, USA
Posts: 503 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:34:05 AM
Originally Posted By bmw20:
There is a pretty simple answer here.......but likely not the one you want to hear. Unfortunately, most would not survive, especially if they are also trying to keep a wife & kids alive. One person cannot fight even 1% of what the Feds can bring to bear upon them. Even those of us that prepare and train with small groups of likeminded individuals would only be prolonging death. Know what else? I wouldn't care. The day that the .gov targets me as a terrorist for exercising my god given and/or Constitutional rights is the day that I will happily pay for what I believe in with my blood. I would never attempt or even think about inflicting harm on the Country that I love - but I will also continue to believe that smaller gov't is better than larger gov't and freedoms are greater than restrictions. When I can no longer say these things without fear of retribution from the gov't, I don't think I would want to be around anyway. You are quite right, we could not, we would not be able to survive, although I do not condone Waco Texas what David karesh was doing and I do not know but 10pct of the facts, the dramatization I saw, on the first day, the ATF and perhaps the FBI got its ass handed to them. I remember Ruby Ridge, although very tragic to loose his wife, I think he was eventually vindicated. It's amazing, we have known terrorists walking the street, gangs out of control, and the FEDS are worried about an abortion sticker. Or don't tread on me. I think I would have told him, yeah you want to buy some. They do not intimidate me, because they work for me also. I am a law abiding tax payer, loyal to the U.S. Constitution, not the marxist's we have now in govt. |
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Ken_in_Va
Member
Joined: Sep 2001 VA, USA
Posts: 115 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:41:00 AM
that is a nightmare scenario
What you describe is the gov going after the people that believe in the constitution or have a bible in their house. I hope sheer numbers of people to round up would make it impossible. If they lock everybody up, who is going to grow the food to feed them? Liberals and socialists don't farm or drive 18 wheelers. You are right tho. I was on an investment forum where they were debating who would be the new group to blame all the problems on. Last time it was jews, this time it just might be people perceived as wealthy or having anything to do with finance or banking. Historic change is coming for sure. |
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AlvinYork
This feels like Deja vu all over again
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2009 USA
Posts: 3039 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:56:33 AM
Originally Posted By Ken_in_Va:
that is a nightmare scenario What you describe is the gov going after the people that believe in the constitution or have a bible in their house. I hope sheer numbers of people to round up would make it impossible. If they lock everybody up, who is going to grow the food to feed them? Liberals and socialists don't farm or drive 18 wheelers. You are right tho. I was on an investment forum where they were debating who would be the new group to blame all the problems on. Last time it was jews, this time it just might be people perceived as wealthy or having anything to do with finance or banking. Historic change is coming for sure. Cursed or blessed, We are living in interesting times. |
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HomeSlice
Member
Team Member
Joined: Aug 2007 IN, USA
Posts: 269 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:57:39 AM
Originally Posted By Ken_in_Va:
What you describe is the gov going after the people that believe in the constitution or have a bible in their house. . Hope + Change? Unfortunately probably not. If this guy is "training" people, he's probably been around longer than a year... Thanks for posting and welcome aboard. This is frightening... -Slice |
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ERNURSE
Member
Joined: Aug 2005 OR, USA
Posts: 248 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 1:15:46 AM
Thanks for confirming what many of us have been witness too. I chuckkle everytime I go through a FBI sponsored talk anymore as half the people in the room are the ones they are talking about. I think I heard recently that only about 13% of the british subjects rose up to become the founding fathers etc.
So even though alot will sit about, there is enough to overcome their foolishness, I never have beleived that a larger majority of the police and military will be on the governemnt side rather than ours. Welcome to the forum. |
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NonDescript
Member
Joined: Jan 2009 IL, USA
Posts: 56 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 1:50:14 AM
Originally Posted By ERNURSE:
I think I heard recently that only about 13% of the british subjects rose up to become the founding fathers etc. The very pro-gun Sipsey Street Irregulars blog has some background on this. I don't know if it's accurate, but the blog claims: During the American Revolution, the active forces in the field against the King's tyranny never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists. They were in turn actively supported by perhaps 10% of the population.
You can find the full article under the heading What is a "Three Percenter"? in the sidebar at the right. It's a short but inspiring read. |
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TNhick
Member
Joined: Nov 2008 TN, USA
Posts: 633 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 1:58:12 AM
One thing to remember like with Carter calling conservitives racists, once you call some one a racist, you no longer have to acknowledge that person as creditable.
The same thing with equating Patriot with terrorist. Dangerous territory. The leftist spinmasters work there play book to a T. After all, its all about the saftey of the children. |
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ERNURSE
Member
Joined: Aug 2005 OR, USA
Posts: 249 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 2:10:54 AM
Thanks non descript, three percent is even better.
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TomJefferson
OF Who Likes Guns
Site Staff
Joined: Aug 2002 TN, USA
Posts: 33118 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 2:51:07 AM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 2:52:35 AM by TomJefferson]
First let me say, Welcome to the site and Thank you for your service to your community and nation.
I will remind everyone, we here on AR15.com consider this a technical forum not a political forum. Encouraging revolution or even just a general government bash session will only result in this thread being locked. The avocation of an illegal action is a direct site rule violation. As for personal advice, I remind everyone that this is a public forum Everyone please keep their posts within forum rules and guidelines. Thanks. Tj |
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dawgm
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Joined: Feb 2009 USA
Posts: 2446 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 2:58:24 AM
you had better sway public opinion very quickly.
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TAP
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Joined: Jan 2008  IRQ
Posts: 993 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 6:18:49 AM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 6:21:06 AM by TAP]
It sickens me to think the FBI has nothing better to do then portray law abiding God Fearing, U.S. Constitution believers as terrorists.
They DO have better things to do, but their leadership picks their battles. Every hour and every dollar spent on this is not spent doing what SHOULD be done instead. 
So far a technical question ( ), where do most of us think the balance lies between posting our stickers and recruting/spreading the word to others (which is what I've chosen), and posting our stuff on ending up on this guy's list? |
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tenOC
Member
Joined: May 2009 USA
Posts: 225 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:35:14 AM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 9:37:13 AM by tenOC]
Were the first known Patriots on American soil terrorists when considering they were rebuking their government? Yes, I think they were. Good for them.
EDIT: I swear allegiance to my country, America. I didn't swear it to some anti-American individual or group. You should've asked if he had a bumper sticker that stated THE GOVERNMENT NEVER MAKES MISTAKES. I ALWAYS DO WHAT MY GOVERNMENT SAYS. |
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Paul
Self aware sack of star stuff
Site Staff
Joined: Nov 2000 CA, USA
Posts: 37275 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:51:43 AM
Sounds like one rouge left-wing agent not following the curriculum.
I work as a fed for the DoD and get the annual briefings. We we travel we get more. And up until four years ago I sat at the table with the FBI, military intelligence and local law enforcements for the monthly threat updates. Nobody mentioned being a Christian or a patriot was an indicator to being a domestic terrorist though there was a peak in interest following Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh 13 years ago. Our current training doesn't focus on appearance but rather actions and precursors - like buying bomb parts from FBI agents. I think lots of people look goofy or threatening but a darn fewer number are like the clowns in Springfield Illinois, New York City, Dallas Texas, and Boulder Colorado men arrested and charged this month. They weren't arrested for looks - they were arrested for their actions. The police are going to be really busy if they start targeting people for carrying a bible, flying an American flag, or running a patriotic bumper sticker - really busy. |
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Paul
Self aware sack of star stuff
Site Staff
Joined: Nov 2000 CA, USA
Posts: 37276 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:56:16 AM
Originally Posted By TAP:
So far a technical question ( ), where do most of us think the balance lies between posting our stickers and recruting/spreading the word to others (which is what I've chosen), and posting our stuff on ending up on this guy's list?Subtle: (the very small city about 8 miles to the east of me) 
No so subtle (note the origin of the license plate) 
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Gerri
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Joined: Oct 2006 CO, USA
Posts: 184 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 11:51:09 AM
If the Federal Government LEO's are after you, you won't be a free person for long. You can try not to be noticed. Perhaps using cash and hanging out in large crowds; but, with the advent of ever better technologies, I don't see how you'd last for long. If you leave any electronic signature, you're going to leave traces that can be followed. Heck, there's even some face recognition software that will allow a street camera to pick you out. As you're in law enforcement, you probably have a much better idea than most what will get you noticed.
Once you're noticed, you can turn and fight or give up and hope for mercy. Since most have families, most will choose to give up. Those who fight will almost certainly die While I generally believe it's unlikely that most of the military or LEO's will turn against the population, there can certainly be a slow erosion. In essence, it's already started. We currently have a little slice of paradise on a base in Cuba where we're holding people without a day in court much less an actual conviction. Habeus Corpus has been suspended. It's easy to destroy paradise in order to 'save' it. |
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donkeykong
Member
Joined: Feb 2005 MI, USA
Posts: 479 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:08:38 PM
The media would be your worst enemy
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Taft
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Joined: Nov 2008 CA, USA
Posts: 1399 Feedback: 0-0-0 |
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:09:15 PM
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 12:19:21 PM by Taft]
Originally Posted By Paul:
Sounds like one rouge left-wing agent not following the curriculum. I work as a fed for the DoD and get the annual briefings. We we travel we get more. And up until four years ago I sat at the table with the FBI, military intelligence and local law enforcements for the monthly threat updates. Nobody mentioned being a Christian or a patriot was an indicator to being a domestic terrorist though there was a peak in interest following Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh 13 years ago. Our current training doesn't focus on appearance but rather actions and precursors - like buying bomb parts from FBI agents. I think lots of people look goofy or threatening but a darn fewer number are like the clowns in Springfield Illinois, New York City, Dallas Texas, and Boulder Colorado men arrested and charged this month. They weren't arrested for looks - they were arrested for their actions. The police are going to be really busy if they start targeting people for carrying a bible, flying an American flag, or running a patriotic bumper sticker - really busy. I agree with TJ and Paul on this. As along time LEO I can tell you we don't worry about the flag wavers and the bumper stickers. (Nevermind on my door in my office at the police department is a Gadsen Flag with the words (We want Less Government - Less Taxes) I work in a small community and we already know who the problem children are. I am also a Terrorism Liason Officer (TLO) and I get the same breifings, blah blah blah ad naseum. When I hear this crap, I just realize how lost our feds will be when the real SHTF. I also know a lot of cops that will not follow their take guns/redistribute the food-water/fema camp crap. Just remember, we prep for the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI in spite of what the feds/state/local are doing. |
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