My brother is a city police officer in a semi-rural area in  Utah, and his dept. allows officers to provide patrol rifles.  I have a beater Mini-14 I once offered him, but now he's called me on it, and I can't bear to send him out with it.  I'd like to build him up a basic patrol rifle on an AR platform, as I believe it to be superior in practically every way to the Mini.

Now, my brother is not a "shooter" by nature.  He's a good enough shot, but it's not his "thing," as it is mine.  He also doesn't get paid much; I'll be financing this on my own, and I'm no Trump.  I imagine these things get carried a lot (in the trunk) and used a very little.  I'm hoping to find some used items in the EE and piece it together.

My question is, aside from a basic 16" carbine, are there any features a patrol carbine needs to have?  I know lights are nice.  Any low budget lights that work well?  Also, should I look for a fixed carry handle or flat-top and get a BUIS?

I was thinking of getting a Burris Xtreme dot-sight, but I don't know if he'd be better off w/irons over electric due to battery/maintenance/practice/familiarity issues.

Your input is appreciated!

First thing... if you must go with a AR platform, don't build it in CA.  It's illegal

As for building a patrol carbine, go with a simple design.  A2 with 16” barrel, a fix stock, iron sight, and a Surefire combat light.  If he’s not a gun guy… keep it simple and it’ll be easier for him to use it.  Also… you probably don’t want to hang too much stuff on it since it’s going to be in the truck most of the time getting the hell knocked out of it.

As for not going with the Mini-14… maybe you may want to rethink it.  A standard Mini-14GB with a synthetic after-market stock is one hell of a gun.  I had a Mini-14 ranch that was my ATV gun… I beat the hell out of it and it was as reliable as anything else.  If he’s LEO, getting Ruger 20rds mags should be easy for him.  May want to give it a look… sure cheaper than a AR.


~NewbieDave

K.I.S.S.

Just do a simple Surefire handheld light in a FSB mount, use a fixed A2, and Irons like he said above. You ought to be able to find all this cheap in the EE. But ya, have it shipped to your brother and not to you.

As the others said, keep it simple.  You stated "he's not a gun guy", I would suggest forget the optic for now and let him try irons to start off with.  Also, get him a good tactical sling.  Another suggestion would be if you don't wanna spend alot of hours searching for parts, maybe buy a kit rifle and a stripped lower (FFL required) for him.  Look at JT Dist. or Model 1 sales.

Good luck!

1st question.  Does his agency allow home brewed guns?  If so then proceed

LAR has blem A2 uppers for $45.  He can get LEO pricing from  many mfgs.   A simple pencil bbl or hvy 16 inch bbl from olympic with a NATO chamber w/ gas tube, delta assem, frt sight tower and grips will be super inexpensive.   Match that with a bolt from them.   Get him rra lower and your good to go.  I will not publish prices.  However you can contact any of the MFG's and talk with them.
This is on the cheap.   If he works in the dark,  get him a light mount.  

An A1 upper would also be a good call, KISS

I say 16 inch for only one reason.  Being able to turn around in tight places.
You might have him check different stocks.  The body armor and length of his arms will be different than any one else.  

We just built a middy for a buddy.  Big guy.   He thought he wanted a collapsible stock.  He tried the A2 and liked the cheek weld and fit better, with  body armor and all.   Go figure.

There was an article in SWAT Mag a couple of mos ago re: taking an old M16 GI  and turning it into a patrol rifle.  I think there is an article re: patrol rifle this month too.

Remember.   KISS.    

The mini is better than nothing.  It would serve him well.

However I would keep it in CALI.   If you stay, you would never be able to replace it.

Any low budget lights that work well?

Low budget doesn't cut it for a police duty rifle.  I mean no offense, and know money is always a concern, but stick with a surefire or comprable light.  

Kudos for helping your brother out!

NorCal

This is good info., and I appreciate the help.  You've confirmed several of my notions, particularly re: KISS.  With regard to sights, I was contemplating whether it would be better/easier for him to use an optic and deal with the battery issue, as opposed to straight irons.  I really don't think he's ever even used aperture sights before, so it's not going to be as easy or familiar to him as it would be to us.  I'm going to have basically one, ~2 hour session to get him up to speed.  He's coming down @ Xmas.

With regard to lights, I didn't mean cheap like Chinese, i meant cheap like, not a $500 Surefire forward handgrip w/built-in light.

Does anyone have a link to a system where I could just bolt on a Streamlight Scorpion, or something similar?  Something less than $100ish?  Is a FSB mount a front sight base mount?  Is making it pressure activated pretty easy?

As to my legal status, I'm kosher.  I bought and registered a few stripped lowers before the ban, so I'm legit.  Geez, you guys never quit being cops, do you??

There are other lights out there besides Surefire.  There are also affordable Surefire lights.  The PentagonLights are good.  I have been testing one as a weapon light for the past month or so, and it has held up well under fire, as well as getting banged around.  You should be able to find one of these lights and a mount within your price range above.

Even if you go with an optic sight, it is a must for a duty rifle to have a BUIS of some type in case the optic goes down.  He will have to at a minumum become familiar with the iron sights, as well as the optic if one is installed.

As others have noted, a good sling is a plus.  As was also noted above, some agencies will not allow home-built rifles, only factory guns.  

He's lucky to have someone willing to do this for him.

Quoted: There are other lights out there besides Surefire.  There are also affordable Surefire lights.  The PentagonLights are good.  I have been testing one as a weapon light for the past month or so, and it has held up well under fire, as well as getting banged around.  You should be able to find one of these lights and a mount within your price range above.

Thanks, I'll look into the Pentagon option.  It seems to me that a light is going to be a critical component for LEO use.

Even if you go with an optic sight, it is a must for a duty rifle to have a BUIS of some type in case the optic goes down.  He will have to at a minumum become familiar with the iron sights, as well as the optic if one is installed.

Good point...  I wonder if constant co-witnessing would bother him, or I need to add ~$100 for a BUIS to put on a flat-top upper.

As others have noted, a good sling is a plus.  As was also noted above, some agencies will not allow home-built rifles, only factory guns.

All I have on my own rifles is a standard "carry-strap" sling, so I don't have a lot of experience with them.  As to "tactical slings," opinions are all over the place as to what's hot, and not.  With his level of training and familiarity I'm very tempted to just get a mil-spec strap, so he can sling as needed, but not get all caught up in the webbing w/his other gear.

As to my legal status, I'm kosher.  I bought and registered a few stripped lowers before the ban, so I'm legit.  Geez, you guys never quit being cops, do you??





Just don't want some good guy getting jammed up by some stupid law.

My reccomendation is a Colt 6520 upper with a Colt bolt carrier group.  The whole thing will run you about $620 shipped.  Then add a light to the FSB and use a Wilderness single point sling.  If you must go with a fixed stock, get an A1.

Pretty simple recipe for a pretty good gun.

As for departments that are issuing M16A1's from DRMO, IMO they should drop short barreled uppers on them.  The LW 10.5 is starting to look really sweet to me.  Esp. in alternative calibers.

BTW the only optic I would want on a gun like this would be a compact ACOG or an Aimpoint M3.  50,000 hours is a long battery life.

Definitely planning on an A1 stock.  He's not a tac-vest wearing entry guy, so I don't want a collapsible, and I prefer the LOP of A1s.   As to the Aimpoint/Acog, that really blows my budget!  

As LEOs, do you think optics or illumination is more important?

One person mentioned the kit guns from Model 1 or JT.  I wondered about these.  Do you guys feel comfortable with these for duty use?  One reason I'd like to stay with trusted componenets is because it won't be MY gun, so it's not going to be shot or tinkered with much...  But I'm all ears.

I don't agree with some of the comments (as usual).  I don't buy cheap shit, so for me, getting stuff knocked around is no big deal.  If I were on patrol, I would use my M4 set up:

1. Collapsable buttstock of your choice (good for compact stowage, correct LOP, and customizable for users comfort when it comes to slings and such).  I highly recommend VLTOR.  You don't have to buy an expensive collapsable buttstock, there are plenty of old, cheap, used ones around.  The purpose of the buttstock is to support the rifle on your shoulder.  It doesn't have to be beautiful, just functional.  Same with the pistol grip and the internals.  I have yet to have a problem with out-of-spec internals from any mfg.  DPMS, Del-ton, and others sell them for a reasonable price.

2. EOTECH 552.  If ever an ultimate life saving device was needed in the dark, this is one of them.  The other is #3.

3. SURFIRE M900 or M920.  I once was ignorant and doubted the sheer performance of SFR.  Now that I own one of these, I would never give it up or try to defend myself without one.  Excellent for ergo and a true life-saving device.  

4.  4-rail system.  Doesn't really matter what type, as long as it is made of metal and fits tight.  

You may be looking for a cheap way to go.  However, you can go cheap by buying used (but good) parts.  I bought a vulcan lower reciever for ~$80.  Stag proabably also has a cheap one.  Since most receivers only differ on the finish, pick a cheap one.  It is going to get beat to hell anyways.  If you are not adding the accessories, than you should make it possible for your friend to.    The bottom line is, he should spend only the amount that his life is worth.  I spend what I can on the stuff that matters or matters to me.  I don't buy Colt's for shooting.  That is what my beaters are for.

Illumination beat an optic, hands down.

Quoted: Illumination beat an optic, hands down.

I would use both if you are referring to a flashlight.  Lasers are no replacement for optics or nite-sights.

Yeah, I am referring to a flashlight. I like optics too, because they are much easier to make hits with at night, but even if you can hit it you have to have a way of identifying it.

I agree that a light is more important than optics.  There is a mount available for an AR that will allow an M-3 light to be mounted to the handguard.  The M-3 is an inexpensive alternative to other more expensive lights and is a well built, reliable tac light.  
Another option is to purchase an older style weapon light that attaches to the barrel, which is what I have on my patrol carbine.

I would assume that your brother wears his kevlar.  This will change his LOP and a nice 6 position stock will make this much easier to deal with

Collapseable stock is a must. The Vltor carbine modstock is very nice and worth the money. I'm extremely happy with mine. My vest does cause me to advance the stock 1 position forward of where I shoot it when unarmored, even with the concealable vest.

Good sling is a must. A lot of guys at my department use a chalker sling they wear under their uniform shirt over their vest. When they want to sling the weapon they undo a button on their shirt (or velcro) and expose the hook on the sling. I use a 3 point sling (coulple of others do to). He needs to be able to sling the weapon and have it secured so he can cuff up whoever he had a gun point. Setting it on the ground or car is not a good option.

Must be able to identify what you're shooting at. A light of some kind is a must. I have the surefire 500A handguards and wouldn't have it any other way.

I think a rail platform with a detachable carry handle is probably the best bet for now. If he wants to get an aimpoint or eotech he can. Our SWAT guys' cowitnessing irons are their carry handle machined down, it ends up looking a lot like the LMT fixed sight. With the rail if he wants to go with a flip down like I did he can do that too.

Brightflashlites has some good deals on "poor mans" tact lights for weapons. Use a G2 with the shock isolated bezel and a clicker tailcap, should cost around $100 or so.

As someone mentioned above, contact Oly arms, they give LE dealer pricing, just ask them to send out a LE/dealer price list and you will see what I mean. I know every one does not like Oly but they will cut a deal for LE and others will not. You may be able give your brother the money and have him buy a good AR at a better price than you can piece one together for and save your lowers.

Quoted: As someone mentioned above, contact Oly arms, they give LE dealer pricing, just ask them to send out a LE/dealer price list and you will see what I mean. I know every one does not like Oly but they will cut a deal for LE and others will not. You may be able give your brother the money and have him buy a good AR at a better price than you can piece one together for and save your lowers.

I wouldn't buy Oly.... cry once, get a Colt.

Sorry I wasn't trying to start the debate again just offering advice the question was for inexpensive, Oly has that and if you have owned one in recent years they also have great customer servive for LE and their quality is good. Colt has quality but inexpensive they are not, I have not used their customer service so I don't know.

Quoted: Quoted: As someone mentioned above, contact Oly arms, they give LE dealer pricing, just ask them to send out a LE/dealer price list and you will see what I mean. I know every one does not like Oly but they will cut a deal for LE and others will not. You may be able give your brother the money and have him buy a good AR at a better price than you can piece one together for and save your lowers. I wouldn't buy Oly.... cry once, get a Colt.

\


Methinks you are missing the point here.  Did you really READ the first post?  This guy is on a budget, and I think you have been reading too many posts by the Colt snobs.

Here is my advice based on a little training, a little ability, and a little building.

Start surfing the EE.  Pick up an A1 or A2 sighted fixed carry handle upper with a 16" 1-7,8 or 9 twist barrel of any profile....it doesn't really matter that much.  Even a pencil barrel will be accurate in semi auto, the HBARs are to maintain groups under full auto barrel heating/drooping.

Pick up just about any recent brand of lower.  If you get a complete lower used, I would replace the fire control springs with new ones just for safety's sake.

You want a telestock, so he can adjust to his body armor and fit the gun properly.  You also want iron sights, forgot the optic for a guy who isn't going to mess with the rig much.  For budget accesories above a stock 16" carbine, here is your priority order:

1.  Good 3 point sling.
2.  5 NIW GI mags with green followers.  Test fire them all before presenting him with his gift.  This will also ensure the rifle will function properly.  I would try for 500 rounds.  250 would do in a pinch, but you MUST do this!
3.  Surefire Nitrolon G2 light at around $35, a pressure switch for the Surefire (cost unk) one of those picatinny rails that screw to the bottom handguard for $15, and a Weaver brand 1" QD scope ring with thumbscrew for $10.
4.  A tritium front sight post at +/- $70

Keep it simple, but useful.

The advantage the A1 sights have:

1.  No knob sticking out.  Rattling around in the back of a patrol car, the possibility exists in my mind that the rear sight could wind up turning a click or two.  NOT good, as the result will be a miss when it really counts.
2.  I personally don't like the fact that the A2 sight assembly is free to rotate slightly on it's vertical axis.  Getting banged around only increases the play already inherent in the design.

Manufacturer doesn't matter as much as guys think.  The beauty of the AR system is that it is modular and most manufacturers build to very similiar tolerances, namely mil-spec.  Most AR parts come out of a very few shops, and often it's only the final machining, finish work and assembly that differs.  I would be comfortable with DPMS, Bushy, Colt, Model 1, M-A, Armalite, whatever.  Mate it to a RR lower with regular style trigger group.  Stay away from match type stuff, you want tough and reliable.  I currently have 3 AR type rifles, and built and sold 1 other upper.  Rifle #4 below sounds like what you want to accomplish.

1.  Colt Carbine.  Built on Colt preban lower ($350 in 1997), with a seperately acquired used Colt A1 16" light 1/12 upper assembly with bolt and BC ($350), new Bushy fire control group ($60), DPMS 4 pos. stock ($45).  Total: $805.  Fired 1200 rounds in two days without cleaning in a class, and I already had a couple thousand rounds on it, this gun has proven itself.

2.  Parts gun #2, an SPR style with used Bushy V-match upper ($450), barrel replaced with DPMS NM 20" stainless match HBAR ($175), old surplus fixed A1 stock, spring, and buffer (free from a friend),  Bushy flip up front sight ($75) and ARMS S-EX extended pic rail/#40 rear sight ($160) new RR lower ($130 with FFL fees) and new RRA trigger group ($55).  Total:  This one had just a few range trips but ran flawlessly until I sold it.

3.  Parts gun #3, M-A 16" stainless match 1/7 carbine kit ($490) custom fluted to 82nd AB Div/AMU experimental DM specs ($120) on RRA lower ($130 w/ FFL fee) with flip up sights ($165) and YHM rifle length railed free float tube ($150).  Total: $1055  So far about 700 rounds through it with just break in barrel cleaning over the first 200 rounds, and the next 500 were two training days.  One malf at the most recent training was a mag that is starting to spread, mag was at fault.

4.  Parts gun #4, used Bushy 16" 1/9 M4 chrome lined barrel with FSB off EE ($145), used no-name A2 upper off EE ($70), used Bushy bolt and BC ($75), used gas tube and pin ($10) on new RRA lower ($130 incl. FFL fee) with new RRA fire control parts ($55) and used No name 4 pos. telestock (included with barrel).  300 rounds since assembled and no malfs.  Total: $485.  This rifle is he most accurate of the three carbines I currently own!

And definitely, get some TRAINING!  With a basic rifle and sling in hand, money is better spent on training than accessories in my opinion.

Hope this helps you, good luck.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As someone mentioned above, contact Oly arms, they give LE dealer pricing, just ask them to send out a LE/dealer price list and you will see what I mean. I know every one does not like Oly but they will cut a deal for LE and others will not. You may be able give your brother the money and have him buy a good AR at a better price than you can piece one together for and save your lowers. I wouldn't buy Oly.... cry once, get a Colt. \ Methinks you are missing the point here.  Did you really READ the first post?  This guy is on a budget, and I think you have been reading too many posts by the Colt snobs.

You can use a Stag lower and a Colt upper to put together a 6520 for 850 dollars.  Oly is crap.  I used to live close by and I have seen what they produce.  Why not spend an extra 100 or 200 dollars to do it right the first time?  The gun will last longer and almost certainly be more reliable.

Do all you clowns realize that customer service can be great, but to need it the gun has to BREAK?  And when will it fail?  On the range, or in the shit?

I put my rifle together on the cheap.

RRA 16" upper.
Surfire G2 package from Bright Flashlights. IT mounts on the front sight rail, has the shock isolated bevel, and a cheap 1" ring mount.  I kind of wish I had gotten the clicker tail cap, possible upgrade. This was about $90 w/ 8 batteries i think.
Specter Gear HST 3-point Sling - I found one for $20 on the ee.

That's my kiss approach. Having the light and sling seem to clutter up the rifle, but I feel they are necessary.