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Posted: 12/15/2009 4:54:09 PM EDT
[#1]
The U.S. hasn't won a war since WW I because the government hasn't demanded reperations for the financial losses to compensate for the costs of the wars. All the wars post WW II the U.S. has lacked the political and military attitude necessary to win the battles in the first place , You don't fight a profitless war..
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Posted: 12/15/2009 4:54:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've just started reading the book Invasion by Eric Harry a few nights ago. Going by memory here, the plot over the first 100 pages or so is as follows: US follows isolationist policies. Retirees elect officials that gut defense to the core in favor of social benefits. China declares satellite overflights illegal, proceeds to shoot down all Western military satellites (Don't they have this capability right now?) North Korea collapses, China moves into the PRK and ROK. China's military fields 60-70 MILLION men. China uses Korea to covertly build a MASSIVE naval fleet China expands East, eventually taking over the Middle East. Europe is isolated and fractures as a military alliance. Instead of taking Europe, the Chinese quickly move into the Caribbean. US blows up Panama canal to slow movement of Chinese forces. Lots of South American countries are angry, join the Chinese. New US President takes over, vows to stand firm, but military is too weakened already. US President makes a commitment not to go nuclear, as Chinese have already nuked Israel to show their resolve. China moves into Cuba at the invitation of the Cubans 5 Million Chinese soldiers in Cuba, Guantanamo falls, US takes massive naval losses. Only 4 carriers remain. Chinese are poised to invade Southern US 200 mile exclusion zone declared from the coast North, US authorities destroy all civilian infrastructure inside exclusion zone as part of a scorched earth policy So there we are. Invasion is imminent. The Chinese even have an "Administrator" ready to start governing the conquered territories. The US only has a couple of Million soldiers, and are vastly outnumbered. Sobering. As a matter of fact, reading that book fills me anxiety and a sense of dread. We've taken our position in the world as granted, but I see that status slipping away. Look at how many people in this administration - and among the general population, for that matter - are of the opinion that WE are the problem. The scenario outlined by the author is frightening because it is possible. There are periodic threads where people poo-poo Chinese military ability, but make no mistake about it: The scenario outlined in that book points out that the Chinese are winning because they outnumber everyone by massive amounts, not because their technology is better than ours. Really makes you wonder if we could end up in that position, if not from this exact scenario but by something else. I got this book because Eric Harry's other book "Arc Light" was absolutely phenomenal - it starts with a tactical nuclear attack on the US by the Russians, and only gets better from there. What's happened with "a rifle behind each blade of grass", huh This ain't 1941. Hax |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 4:56:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Bring it on "Ching-Ching"...
Bring it on... 
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:00:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
yeah, yeah...there are a lot of Chinese. But you have to use some factoring to balance the equation. They MIGHT have 70 million. But each of them weighs what...90lbs soaking wet. Most American males are at least twice that. SOOOOoooo pound for pound those 70 million Chinese only equals about 30 million Americans. That factor goes even smaller when you consider some of the trailer dwellers in south Alabama. They could easily equal THREE Chinese, and they don't have much to live for....so.....a Southern invasion is kinda far fetched. Throw in all that and a couple of tactical nukes.....this game ends badly for the Chinese, but thanks for playing. God, I love Arfcom. John |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:02:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: The Communist Party is about power, nothing more. They will not hesitate to kill Millions like they have before to retain that power. Don't disagree. But they can't even support an invasion of the US (right now or in the near future, i.e. 10-20 years), nevermind kill millions at home in a rebellion and invade the US simultaneously. Right. The book said all these events I outlined happened over a period of 8+ years. There's no mention either of how China turned so militaristic. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:03:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Obviously they could take CA easily.
I'm pretty sure they would be stopped before getting to Arizona or Nevada.... ....Ok ok, they might get Nevada too
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:07:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've just started reading the book Invasion by Eric Harry a few nights ago. Going by memory here, the plot over the first 100 pages or so is as follows: US follows isolationist policies. Retirees elect officials that gut defense to the core in favor of social benefits. China declares satellite overflights illegal, proceeds to shoot down all Western military satellites (Don't they have this capability right now?) North Korea collapses, China moves into the PRK and ROK. China's military fields 60-70 MILLION men. China uses Korea to covertly build a MASSIVE naval fleet China expands East, eventually taking over the Middle East. Europe is isolated and fractures as a military alliance. Instead of taking Europe, the Chinese quickly move into the Caribbean. US blows up Panama canal to slow movement of Chinese forces. Lots of South American countries are angry, join the Chinese. New US President takes over, vows to stand firm, but military is too weakened already. US President makes a commitment not to go nuclear, as Chinese have already nuked Israel to show their resolve. China moves into Cuba at the invitation of the Cubans 5 Million Chinese soldiers in Cuba, Guantanamo falls, US takes massive naval losses. Only 4 carriers remain. Chinese are poised to invade Southern US 200 mile exclusion zone declared from the coast North, US authorities destroy all civilian infrastructure inside exclusion zone as part of a scorched earth policy So there we are. Invasion is imminent. The Chinese even have an "Administrator" ready to start governing the conquered territories. The US only has a couple of Million soldiers, and are vastly outnumbered. Sobering. As a matter of fact, reading that book fills me anxiety and a sense of dread. We've taken our position in the world as granted, but I see that status slipping away. Look at how many people in this administration - and among the general population, for that matter - are of the opinion that WE are the problem. The scenario outlined by the author is frightening because it is possible. There are periodic threads where people poo-poo Chinese military ability, but make no mistake about it: The scenario outlined in that book points out that the Chinese are winning because they outnumber everyone by massive amounts, not because their technology is better than ours. Really makes you wonder if we could end up in that position, if not from this exact scenario but by something else. I got this book because Eric Harry's other book "Arc Light" was absolutely phenomenal - it starts with a tactical nuclear attack on the US by the Russians, and only gets better from there. What's happened with "a rifle behind each blade of grass", huh This ain't 1941. Hax If the Second Amendment wasn't infringed, it could be an M240 and an AT4 behind every blade of grass. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:09:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
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Chinese are poised to invade Southern US
EXCELLLENT!!!! Send the wife and daughter north to Minnesota to live with the family. Call my Pals to come prepare at my house for a week. Lock & Load!! Let's ROCK!!!!  
You and most like you will be in an internment camp before they cross into Texas,AZ,NM,CA via Mexico..You'll be guarded by Americans loyal to the Obama regime.. UN Peace keepers will cross into the US via Canada with Canadian forces leading the way to put down any insurrection... Large cities will be bordered off and become large population areas with curfews and patrols.. They will hunt every true blooded American down and execute each and every one of us.. Just make sure to take a few of them motherfuckers with you. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:13:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Obviously they could take CA easily. All the city liberals would probably welcome them with open arms as comrade liberators from the imperialist United States if they mounted even a minor propaganda campaign prior to showing up. Then they'd be happy to aid and abet them while they went about "pacifying" all those guns/bibles/hatred rubes in non-urban California. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:22:35 PM EDT
[#10]
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B Hussein Obama will have all our nukes decommissioned. We will be helpless except for our own resolve. He doesn't even have to do that.All the democommunists need to do to neuter our nuke arsenal is to stop funding any nuke maintenance.Our nuke stockpile is 20-30 years old,they are like any man made machine,they need maintenance and refurbishment in order to go boom. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:23:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Red China can not support a 60 million person military.
Red China does not have to covertly build ships in North Korea and can't anyway - look at the geography man. The population of Cuba is slightly over 11 million. It cannot feed 5 million Red Chinese troops. As for Red China spreading west, the book is a bit late. Red China just finished building a highway to Pakistan and is in the process of building 3 bridges over the Mekong River in Southeast Asia. It has actively sent people west and to the Tibetan Plateau for years. To take over the Middle East, Red China has to go through Iran. It is already friends with Iran and is developing oil fields in exchange for oil. It isn't fighting with Iran at all. If the Spratleys have economically recoverable oil, the Red Chinese will be busy there for years and not need to invade the US for any resources. ROK troops are tough. Most people do not know that units fought in Vietnam. RC will not drop the bomb and have the fall out come back to RC. ROK will simply say that as of a certain time, the Three Gorges Dam will be blown. Before that is done, ROK will blow a smaller dam in RC. There are 200,000,000 people downstream from the Three Gorges Dam and no evacuation plan. One thing is accurate. Our retiring baby boomers will arrogate social benefits to themselves and not want to fund military preparedness. In August 2001, the Los Angeles Times was running articles on the curtailment of training in the US military for a lack of 9mm ammo. Similarly, on December 8, 1941, it is estimated that there were 9 rounds of 30-06 ammo for every rifle the US Army had in the western US. So, a lack of preparedness is nothing new for the US. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:31:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Chinese are poised to invade Southern US
EXCELLLENT!!!! Send the wife and daughter north to Minnesota to live with the family. Call my Pals to come prepare at my house for a week. Lock & Load!! Let's ROCK!!!!
You and most like you will be in an internment camp before they cross into Texas,AZ,NM,CA via Mexico..You'll be guarded by Americans loyal to the Obama regime.. UN Peace keepers will cross into the US via Canada with Canadian forces leading the way to put down any insurrection... Large cities will be bordered off and become large population areas with curfews and patrols.. They will hunt every true blooded American down and execute each and every one of us.. HUNTING? 
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:33:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Read the book, War Plan Orange. It's a study of the various war plans of the Naval War College against foreign enemies. Orange was the color given to Japan. The Naval War College figured out that our pre-war fleet was in no position to support an overseas invasion. You need more than warships. You need endless supply convoys just to keep an army overseas. An invading army must not only land here, it must set up factories (since we shipped all our industry overseas) to produce its supply to keep it in the field. That'll reduce the dependence on convoys, but will take up a lot of time. Remember, the Chinese don't need to fire a single bullet. They dump the over 1.5 trillion dollars of US debt on the market and we'll free fall into the biggest depression in history. Of course, they'll hurt, but they won't lose any men, ships, airplanes or other war material and it's a lot cheaper than fighting. Don't underrate the Chinese in their ability to wage war with non-fighting means. i think it would be more of MAD scenario. if they dump our dollars we just stop imports from china. tens of millions of chinese would be out of work instantly I`ve been there. They can convert those millions into whatever they need almost overnight. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:37:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: If the Second Amendment wasn't infringed, it could be an M240 and an AT4 behind every blade of grass. I wish I had that kind of hardware behind my own personal blade of grass that's for sure!  |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:43:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Sounds like a good book. Does it go into our defense we're we finally find a way to put all the fat, lazy, crack smoking, Colt45 drinking, entitlement minorities to use as human shields and alternative substinence. You know invited to a BBQ but happen to be the main course.
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:54:31 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Now just how in the hell are them damn Red Chinese gonna get an army across the Pacific Ocean without us knowing about it? LC Covered in the book as I mentioned. They take down all of our satellites. Even if we take down theirs, we're much more heavily reliant on technology than they are. Just imagine if someone fucked with GPS, for example... I'm pretty sure they are still teaching map reading, and issuing compasses to our troops. Give us Americans some credit.... you German Commie!
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Posted: 12/15/2009 5:57:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: Obviously they could take CA easily. All the city liberals would probably welcome them with open arms as comrade liberators from the imperialist United States if they mounted even a minor propaganda campaign prior to showing up. Then they'd be happy to aid and abet them while they went about "pacifying" all those guns/bibles/hatred rubes in non-urban California. All of us "hicks" could set up shop in the Sierra foothills. Close off what few passes there are and make for a pretty difficult march eastward. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 6:07:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Communist Party is about power, nothing more. They will not hesitate to kill Millions like they have before to retain that power. Don't disagree. But they can't even support an invasion of the US (right now or in the near future, i.e. 10-20 years), nevermind kill millions at home in a rebellion and invade the US simultaneously. Right. The book said all these events I outlined happened over a period of 8+ years. There's no mention either of how China turned so militaristic. Read a think tank type of report a while back about China having 70 million men of military age in 15 to 20 years. A potential problem, a real serious potential problem. Their focus potentiallly would be on the vast areas and resources of the old Soviet Union, southeast Asia and India. Not too far fetched to see them making a land mass grab to their west. The Soviets vs. the Chinese. Who would we back? |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 6:25:19 PM EDT
[#19]
just got it off amazon for $4
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Posted: 12/15/2009 6:37:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Hank said it best.
The preacher man says it’s the end of time And the Mississippi River she’s a goin’ dry The interest is up and the Stock Markets down And you only get mugged If you go down town I live back in the woods, you see A woman and the kids, and the dogs and me I got a shotgun rifle and a 4-wheel drive And a country boy can survive Country folks can survive I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too Ain’t too many things these ole boys can’t do We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine And a country boy can survive Country folks can survive Because you can’t starve us out And you cant makes us run Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raise his ole shotgun And we say grace and we say Ma’am And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn We came from the West Virginia coalmines And the Rocky Mountains and the western skies And we can skin a buck; we can run a trout-line And a country boy can survive Country folks can survive I had a good friend in New York City He never called me by my name, just hillbilly My grandpa taught me how to live off the land And his taught him to be a businessman He used to send me pictures of the Broadway nights And I’d send him some homemade wine But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife For 43 dollars my friend lost his life I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eyes And shoot him with my old .45 Cause a country boy can survive Country folks can survive Cause you can’t starve us out and you can’t make us run Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raise his ole shotgun And we say grace and we say Ma’am And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn We’re from North California and south Alabam And little towns all around this land And we can skin a buck; we can run a trot-line And a country boy can survive Country folks can survive |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:02:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There's roughly 90 million people here in America who are armed with various sorts of pistols, shotguns and rifles and the ammunition to feed each and every one of them. Whether you believe it or not, 90 million people is nothing to sneeze at (and I'm sure the chinese know that, too).Quoted: What the hell is that supposed to mean? Would I fight for this country? Of course. All I'm pointing out is that it would be a very futile effort against MILLIONS of armed soldiers equipped with modern equipment.At least we can count on you for a little help...  As long as we could count on the military to provide us with some heavy support (air cover, artillery, tanks, etc) we have enough people here with small arms and ammo to prevent an invasion by any force that I could imagine. Lets just hope that we never get to a point where that theory must be tested. I would much rather not see a war fought in my backyard. I call "shennanigans" on the "ammo" part - I strongly suspect 98% of gun owners have 50 rounds or less fer their thutty-thutty shootin' ahrn and would be instantly out of business (and you thought the ammo bubble of 2009 was bad!). |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:05:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
sounds like a good book, I will look for it No kidding. I'm off tom. Might have to go have a look see. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:08:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Red China can not support a 60 million person military. Red China does not have to covertly build ships in North Korea and can't anyway - look at the geography man. The population of Cuba is slightly over 11 million. It cannot feed 5 million Red Chinese troops. As for Red China spreading west, the book is a bit late. Red China just finished building a highway to Pakistan and is in the process of building 3 bridges over the Mekong River in Southeast Asia. It has actively sent people west and to the Tibetan Plateau for years. To take over the Middle East, Red China has to go through Iran. It is already friends with Iran and is developing oil fields in exchange for oil. It isn't fighting with Iran at all. If the Spratleys have economically recoverable oil, the Red Chinese will be busy there for years and not need to invade the US for any resources. ROK troops are tough. Most people do not know that units fought in Vietnam. RC will not drop the bomb and have the fall out come back to RC. ROK will simply say that as of a certain time, the Three Gorges Dam will be blown. Before that is done, ROK will blow a smaller dam in RC. There are 200,000,000 people downstream from the Three Gorges Dam and no evacuation plan. One thing is accurate. Our retiring baby boomers will arrogate social benefits to themselves and not want to fund military preparedness. In August 2001, the Los Angeles Times was running articles on the curtailment of training in the US military for a lack of 9mm ammo. Similarly, on December 8, 1941, it is estimated that there were 9 rounds of 30-06 ammo for every rifle the US Army had in the western US. So, a lack of preparedness is nothing new for the US. IIRC the Chinese also got a HUGE portion of the oil contracts with Iraq. And they have been setting up mining operations in Africa on a large scale. The Chinese are pretty frigging smart in some respects. They don't have the chains around them that we do, they will do business with anyone who has something to offer, without regard for anything (human rights, the environment etc). The darkhorse in the equation is that China has a huge surplus of military age males that could create domestic problems for them unless they find something to do with them (cannon fodder). Many of them have seen how we live and sure would enjoy it. They might be faced with two outcomes. 1. Internal strife/civil war 2. Expand to accommodate all of those people |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:33:22 PM EDT
[#24]
I can't believe none of you guys haven't fisked this yet; it's full of erroneous thinking:
Quoted: More than 50% of our nuclear trident is now dependent on our SSBN fleet. If the Chinese could kill sat communication with those subs Oh, I'm sorry - did something change over the last 18 I've been out of the Navy? I thought we had some sort of communication method with the Bubblehead Crowd that did not rely on satcom to make happen... like ELF (Extremely Low Frequency, sent through the earth). and take out our remaining missiles and bombers with tactical strikes How does a nation do a "tactical strike" when the missiles are strategic weapons? It would be a first strike, and I suspect the Chins know they'd be in some trouble now that the ABL is on the verge of being able to handle the challenge, along with THAADS, Patriot, and other defensive stuff. I think the U.S. especially under President Obama would be very reluctant to respond with a nuclear strike out of fear that they'd still survive while we'd be removed from the face of the earth. The most dangerous, warlike thing on the planet is a Democrat whose country has been attacked - first, they have to deal with the uncomfortable intersection with REALITY - and this frequently jars them so badly that they over-react to anything happening. Also, since they're Dems, they begin to understand that the enemy has assumed they are weak because of all the "make-love-not-war" rhetoric their idiot coreligionists (and I mean that) spout off, so they tend to over-react because of that. Look at Johnson's escalation of the war after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and you'll get my meaning. Also: Serbia, with Clinton (no problem, we can bomb those civilians!), the crazy blah-blah of Zero during the campaign insinuating we'd invade Pakistan, FDR locking up American citizens because of their troublesome slanty eyes, etc. So if you think Zero would just sit there and be remembered at the ballot box as the President who fiddled while Rome burned, think again. You'd have to at least wait until his lame-duck second term for him to do really dopey things like that. If China did an electronic/network attack on the United States combined with attack subs striking our SSBN's and tactical strikes on our missile silos and bombers we'd be toast. The hell you say! THE HELL YOU SAY!! Those fucking punks have NO IDEA where our attack subs are. We could park one in downtown Peking without them knowing about it. This is the UNITED STATES NAVY we're talking about here, not the Tajikistani Coast Guard.  Keep in mind that Obama has postponed missile defense of Europe and has serious slashed missile defense spending. Our missile shield would be overwhelmed by any Chinese attack since Obama has no intention of expanding it. The 2007 Annual Report to Congress (per Wikipedia) states: "Beijing has deployed a modest ballistic missile force, including land and sea-based intermediate-range and intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). It is estimated that China has about 100-160 liquid fueled ICBMs capable of striking the United States with approximately 100–150 IRBMs able to strike Russia or Eastern Europe. China also possesses several hundred tactical SRBMs with ranges between 300 and 600 km.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army#cite_note-2007annualreport_p19-17][18][/url]" Obama has us cutting our nuclear deterrent with an agreement with the Russian while the Chinese were completely left out of that deal. China is upgrading its nuclear missiles, expanding its blue water Navy, and our most critical air base at Kadena is basically a sitting duck. I honestly hope they have a lot of body bags on hand at Kadena Air Force base, because they're going to need them if war ever broke out with China. That dumb shit Obama and Gates have us with only ONE squadron of F-22s and we'd have to HOPE they were in theater when something went down with China. Watch DOD cut F-35s anyways despite saying they're going to order more...I know they'll find an excuse to cut the number of F-35 JSFs...mark my words on that one. This is the most accurate assessment you've made so far. Right on the money. In 2016 Social Security will start to pay out more then it takes in. Medicare and Medicaid already pay more more then they take in now. Social Security already costs more than Defense. Medicare and Medicaid combined cost as much as defense spending. Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare are entitlement programs that are MANDATORY budget items meaning the U.S. government can not cut down spending on either one year to the next. Defense on the other hand is the only big budget non-mandatory budget item and will be gutted to save the mandatory entitlement programs as they start to pay out more than they take in. Defense spending this year is less than we paid for Social Security and the Economic Stimulus package. How far down is Defense going to be in priority once National Health Care is passed? Your suppositions are wrong about entirely too much. Plus, China doesn't view the world through a Western "Conquer or DIE!" mentality that came from the thrones of Europe in the 17th - 19th century. They've got 4000 years of never reaching out for conquest. Like another poster said, if you fuck up the money flow to the hugely growing middle class to start some dumb-fuck war, you will have a REVOLT on your hands. It just isn't in their character. They are far likelier to read Sun-Tzu and just try to buy us with our own money than to fuck up the gravy-train of cash from The Big PX. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:46:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Your suppositions are wrong about entirely too much. Plus, China doesn't view the world through a Western "Conquer or DIE!" mentality that came from the thrones of Europe in the 17th - 19th century. They've got 4000 years of never reaching out for conquest. Like another poster said, if you fuck up the money flow to the hugely growing middle class to start some dumb-fuck war, you will have a REVOLT on your hands. It just isn't in their character. They are far likelier to read Sun-Tzu and just try to buy us with our own money than to fuck up the gravy-train of cash from The Big PX. Oh really, how does the national chain of command order a nuclear attack if communications are disrupted through attacks on communication sats and a cyber attack launched from China. Have you picked up a news paper or read anything at all about China in the last decade? They hold war games constantly and cyber warfare and anti sat missiles are all things they are working very hard on. The U.S. national Chain of Command had difficulty coordinating during the 9/11 attacks in communicating between the White House and Air Force One and that was with NO disruption to communications networks. Read the 9/11 Commission Report. China is increasing its military spending every single year and while not on par with our spending they also don't have the cost of labor or our complex environmental regulations or corporate taxes to contend with. The Communists also don't have to break up defense projects to include multiple states in order to get political support. This all means that they get a lot of bang for their buck literally. Every single year their manufacturing base and technological skill of their labor force becomes better and better. China's Navy and Nuclear arsenal is what it is today, but it can grow and is going to grow in the next few years so maybe try to think beyond the present and look tomorrow for a second. Your short sightedness is scary. Underestimating an enemy is usually the first step to being attacked by them. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:59:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
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They couldn't afford to have the U.S. fold it's tent economically, because they depend on U.S. consumers in the same way as we depend on middle eastern oil. Completely disagree. The Chinese know how to tighten their belts, and a vast majority of their populace is living in poverty already. Worst-case scenario, they move back to hard-line communism and ruthlessly oppress those who have enjoyed the capitalist lifestyle a little too much. Unlike here in the US, the Communist party will not fold because people are angry that they couldn't get flat-panel TVs anymore. According to an interview of Billionaire Rupert Murdock each year close to two million people around the world come out of poverty thanks to global trade and I'm guessing the bulk of those numbers come from China and India. The Chinese are rapidly expanding their infrastructure and each year improving their standard of living...I don't know if they're going to want to give that up so easily. They also will soon have a HUGE population of senior citizens without the family support that has been traditional thanks to family planning efforts. These huge numbers of Chinese seniors will create a significant strain on their society and require either euthanasia or an improved financial situation for the nation of China. To say nothing of the fact that their military leadership I'm sure enjoys their ever increasing budget and I can't see them just tossing their arms up and giving that up. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 8:05:31 PM EDT
[#27]
It would be a logistical nightmare if China decided to invade the U.S. and actually succeeded. The supply chain is way to long to effectively supply the man power required to occupy the U.S. and it would be expensive as hell.
A more likely scenario would be for China to fight a proxy war with the U.S. as has been their tactic in recent history. History tells us they don't want to engage us themselves, but would rather supply and train someone else to do it for them......Korean War......Vietnam War. A more likely scenario would be for them to supply and train some other country, most likely from central or south america, to fight a war against the U.S. for them. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 8:18:19 PM EDT
[#28]
President Obama in his treaty with the Russians agreed to take our delivery vehicles - land-based intercontinental missiles, submarine-based missiles, and bombers - to somewhere between 500 and 1,100.
The Russians are pushing for deeper cuts since they can carry more warheads per delivery vehicle than we do right now and I feel confident in saying that Obama will give that to them. Missile defense is limited. It's not designed to handle an massive attack on the United States of America and President Obama has already limited the number of missile being added to missile defense and essentially stopped the Boeing Airborne Laser program. The missile shield President Obama proposes to replace the one previously planned by the Bush Administration for Europe will not be put in place until 2017 at the earliest and there is talk that it could be delayed beyond that. Where are the restraints that are in place on China for their nuclear weapons program? They can do as they like when they like with their nuclear program. If we are under treaty obligations to the Russians we cannot and certainly would not break such a treaty under this President. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 8:21:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
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Posted: 12/15/2009 8:23:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
A more likely scenario would be for them to supply and train some other country, most likely from central or south america, to fight a war against the U.S. for them. 
I am ready for the task, my Chinese comrades! |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 8:28:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
It would be a logistical nightmare if China decided to invade the U.S. and actually succeeded. The supply chain is way to long to effectively supply the man power required to occupy the U.S. and it would be expensive as hell. A more likely scenario would be for China to fight a proxy war with the U.S. as has been their tactic in recent history. History tells us they don't want to engage us themselves, but would rather supply and train someone else to do it for them......Korean War......Vietnam War. A more likely scenario would be for them to supply and train some other country, most likely from central or south america, to fight a war against the U.S. for them. Except the Chinese are now becoming logistical experts. Their entire nation is built on shipping goods from China to the United States of America. The United States Navy and the rest of the Military has centralized its bases and ports since the Cold War ended and those bases are not hardened to withstand attack. Case in point is the USAF base at Kadena where large fuel containers right next to the runway are just out in the open. We also know that on base security is a joke in the United States allowing for sabotage to be a real possibility. Combine that with cyber warfare and anti satellite missiles taking out communication and GPS network or reducing its capacity at a minimum would put the hurt on us pretty bad. Our ability to coordinate an effective campaign in the Pacific could be greatly damaged and if China goes through with its plans to increase the size of its blue water Navy it would be a real fight to control shipping lanes. China and Russia have also held multiple war games together and it could be possible that they could use Russia as a jumping point into Alaska to cut our pipelines and established supply routes. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 8:32:55 PM EDT
[#32]
I read that book about 10 years ago. I don't remember much of it, mostly just the detailed descriptions of the lone special forces guy with a .50 - and the Presidents daughter being in the military
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:01:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
I've just started reading the book Invasion by Eric Harry a few nights ago. Going by memory here, the plot over the first 100 pages or so is as follows: US follows isolationist policies. Retirees elect officials that gut defense to the core in favor of social benefits. China declares satellite overflights illegal, proceeds to shoot down all Western military satellites (Don't they have this capability right now?) North Korea collapses, China moves into the PRK and ROK. China's military fields 60-70 MILLION men. China uses Korea to covertly build a MASSIVE naval fleet China expands West, eventually taking over the Middle East. Europe is isolated and fractures as a military alliance. Instead of taking Europe, the Chinese quickly move into the Caribbean. US blows up Panama canal to slow movement of Chinese forces. Lots of South American countries are angry, join the Chinese. New US President takes over, vows to stand firm, but military is too weakened already. US President makes a commitment not to go nuclear, as Chinese have already nuked Israel to show their resolve. China moves into Cuba at the invitation of the Cubans 5 Million Chinese soldiers in Cuba, Guantanamo falls, US takes massive naval losses. Only 4 carriers remain. Chinese are poised to invade Southern US 200 mile exclusion zone declared from the coast North, US authorities destroy all civilian infrastructure inside exclusion zone as part of a scorched earth policy So there we are. Invasion is imminent. The Chinese even have an "Administrator" ready to start governing the conquered territories. The US only has a couple of Million soldiers, and are vastly outnumbered. Sobering. As a matter of fact, reading that book fills me anxiety and a sense of dread. We've taken our position in the world as granted, but I see that status slipping away. Look at how many people in this administration - and among the general population, for that matter - are of the opinion that WE are the problem. The scenario outlined by the author is frightening because it is possible. There are periodic threads where people poo-poo Chinese military ability, but make no mistake about it: The scenario outlined in that book points out that the Chinese are winning because they outnumber everyone by massive amounts, not because their technology is better than ours. Really makes you wonder if we could end up in that position, if not from this exact scenario but by something else. I got this book because Eric Harry's other book "Arc Light" was absolutely phenomenal - it starts with a tactical nuclear attack on the US by the Russians, and only gets better from there. Well there is the problem... according to the book we still don't have a president with fucking balls. They started it... we should have finished it on whatever landmass they were on. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:06:00 PM EDT
[#34]
They'd just die, tired.
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:15:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Quoted: Your suppositions are wrong about entirely too much. Plus, China doesn't view the world through a Western "Conquer or DIE!" mentality that came from the thrones of Europe in the 17th - 19th century. They've got 4000 years of never reaching out for conquest. Like another poster said, if you fuck up the money flow to the hugely growing middle class to start some dumb-fuck war, you will have a REVOLT on your hands. It just isn't in their character. They are far likelier to read Sun-Tzu and just try to buy us with our own money than to fuck up the gravy-train of cash from The Big PX. Oh really, how does the national chain of command order a nuclear attack if communications are disrupted through attacks on communication sats and a cyber attack launched from China. Have you picked up a news paper or read anything at all about China in the last decade? They hold war games constantly and cyber warfare and anti sat missiles are all things they are working very hard on. The U.S. national Chain of Command had difficulty coordinating during the 9/11 attacks in communicating between the White House and Air Force One and that was with NO disruption to communications networks. Read the 9/11 Commission Report. China is increasing its military spending every single year and while not on par with our spending they also don't have the cost of labor or our complex environmental regulations or corporate taxes to contend with. The Communists also don't have to break up defense projects to include multiple states in order to get political support. This all means that they get a lot of bang for their buck literally. Every single year their manufacturing base and technological skill of their labor force becomes better and better. China's Navy and Nuclear arsenal is what it is today, but it can grow and is going to grow in the next few years so maybe try to think beyond the present and look tomorrow for a second. Your short sightedness is scary. Underestimating an enemy is usually the first step to being attacked by them. You're right. The military just picks up their Verizon Droid and calls around. Oh fuck, reception is bad here! Better move to another part of the room! Because of course, they don't have any plans at all to control their forces at large in theater if AT&T is experiencing a DOS or anything.  Have you ever served? You sound like you haven't gotten the slightest idea of how things work when you throw out a blanket "THEY'LL SHOOT DOWN THE SATELLITES!!!!111!" Stop letting your desire of goading China into some idiotic war they'll never fight combine with your ignorance of how military communication systems work - it's making you look like an hysterical 13 year-old girl. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:17:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Arfcom!
Prepare for glory. Tonight we dine in hell! |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:27:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years...
Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade... Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... Mexico plunged into revolution... NATO dissolves. United States stands alone. 
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:31:11 PM EDT
[#38]
The Chi-comms have exactly ONE ship which MAY be on par with an Arleigh-Burke destroyer ON A GOOD DAY.
Remind me how they're going to get over here again 
For comparison, our hull numbers on Burkes alone are into the triple digits. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 9:45:16 PM EDT
[#39]
I am infiltrating and penetrating as we keyboard (OK only the Chinese women at this point).
Semper Fi! |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 10:04:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years... Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade... Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... Mexico plunged into revolution... NATO dissolves. United States stands alone. You're a few decades out of date here. There is no Soviet Union, though not for lack of wishful thinking. The EU is a joke at this stage of the game. Venezuela is becoming the bigger oil fueled threat. Mexico is already in a state of civil war with narcoterrorists. NATO doesn't have to dissolve. Astan and Iraq are shining examples of how dependable these allies are. That said, America is not alone. She will never be alone. And China's not the threat to worry about for next half century or so. Africa is the easier goal of The Dragon. America's ongoing and likely nemesis will be the terrorists they can't call terrorists. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 10:21:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years... Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade... Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... Mexico plunged into revolution... NATO dissolves. United States stands alone. You're a few decades out of date here. There is no Soviet Union, though not for lack of wishful thinking. The EU is a joke at this stage of the game. Venezuela is becoming the bigger oil fueled threat. Mexico is already in a state of civil war with narcoterrorists. NATO doesn't have to dissolve. Astan and Iraq are shining examples of how dependable these allies are. That said, America is not alone. She will never be alone. And China's not the threat to worry about for next half century or so. Africa is the easier goal of The Dragon. America's ongoing and likely nemesis will be the terrorists they can't call terrorists. 2 things: First, Red Dawn is NEVER out of date. Second, "Jor-El" is a bit older than Red Dawn.
PS. Say "Hey" to Supes for me.
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Posted: 12/15/2009 10:24:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... United States stands alone. The Green Party of today, along with environmentalists, are the Communists of the 1980's. They changed their name because of all the baggage associated with Communism. But there is no doubt, that they are the same people. Greens = Communists. Always remember that. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 11:23:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
The Green Party of today, along with environmentalists, are the Communists of the 1980's. They changed their name because of all the baggage associated with Communism. But there is no doubt, that they are the same people. Greens = Communists. Always remember that. Green is the new red. |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 11:27:59 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: Read the book, War Plan Orange. It's a study of the various war plans of the Naval War College against foreign enemies. Orange was the color given to Japan. The Naval War College figured out that our pre-war fleet was in no position to support an overseas invasion. You need more than warships. You need endless supply convoys just to keep an army overseas. An invading army must not only land here, it must set up factories (since we shipped all our industry overseas) to produce its supply to keep it in the field. That'll reduce the dependence on convoys, but will take up a lot of time. Remember, the Chinese don't need to fire a single bullet. They dump the over 1.5 trillion dollars of US debt on the market and we'll free fall into the biggest depression in history. Of course, they'll hurt, but they won't lose any men, ships, airplanes or other war material and it's a lot cheaper than fighting. Don't underrate the Chinese in their ability to wage war with non-fighting means. i think it would be more of MAD scenario. if they dump our dollars we just stop imports from china. tens of millions of chinese would be out of work instantly This. Keep in mind, we can live without their cheap products. It won't be fun, but we could do it. It's not as easy for them to live without us... |
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Posted: 12/15/2009 11:47:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
This. Keep in mind, we can live without their cheap products. It won't be fun, but we could do it. It's not as easy for them to live without us... Especially since trying to offload their cheap shit and artificially low rates onto Europe to the degree they do us would result in the protectionists over there (who wield far more power and influence than they do here) shitting tariffs all over the place in short order. And then besides Europe, they don't have any other potential alternate markets. |
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Posted: 12/16/2009 12:20:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Completely disagree. The Chinese know how to tighten their belts, and a vast majority of their populace is living in poverty already. Worst-case scenario, they move back to hard-line communism and ruthlessly oppress those who have enjoyed the capitalist lifestyle a little too much. Unlike here in the US, the Communist party will not fold because people are angry that they couldn't get flat-panel TVs anymore. Afraid that's a completely wrong assessment. This isn't the 50s, or even the 80s or 90s. The whole reason the Communist party is even somewhat viable right now is they've mortgaged themselves to hell and back like the Japanese did in the 1990s by artificially keeping controls in place to keep themselves booming (and just like the Japanese, if they don't find a way to weasel themselves out of that situation before their scam runs out of steam, they may be in EXTREMELY hot water). While the country people are still poor as hell, they've had several farmers' rebellions on their hands in the last few years. Now, the standard of living is shooting up in the cities and keeping the urban people happy, where the view on communism has shifted to "it's okay, because it's making us rich." If it makes them poor again, and then goes into a megalomaniacal war on the other side of the world against a non-enemy, they are in extreme danger of revolution because China's businessmen will be as angry as their rural farmers. The ChiComs are well aware that could lose them the whole game. China of today is not what you think. Not saying the scenario of the book is impossible, it certainly is. Just not without some massive changes in both countries, the most necessary of which would take a couple decades or more. I'm digging what you're saying. I would add that throughout China's history, she has always found a way to implode. There's nothing different going on now than throughout it's normal historical cycle. We just have to wait. The plot scenario also says that it will have 60 to 70 million soldiers that are outside it's borders. I don't see that at all. I don't even see China's allies being a large part of that (unless they can attack/run over easy targets, unless the Russians are one of their allies. Modern militaries are very expensive just to drive down the road 500 miles. |
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Posted: 12/16/2009 1:20:21 AM EDT
[#47]
I thought this was going to be another thread about the photos of all of the Chinese freighters sitting idle due to the economy. The only reason I clicked on it was due to the author of the thread.
I will have to check those books out, thanks.
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Posted: 12/16/2009 1:31:48 AM EDT
[#48]
Two giant oceans. Largest, most powerful Navy in the history of the planet. Those are some pretty big advantages you can't overcome just because you have alot of conscripts and tanks.
And no, they aren't going to build a giant Navy in secret. And even if they could, they couldn't train it in secret. You can't create a Navy out of thin air overnight. |
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Posted: 12/16/2009 1:41:10 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
And no, they aren't going to build a giant Navy in secret. And even if they could, they couldn't train it in secret. You can't create a Navy out of thin air overnight. Yeah, the secret navy thing really gets me... WTF? 
Not even Philip VI was able to pull that on Edward III in the friggin 1300s. |
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Posted: 12/16/2009 1:43:30 AM EDT
[#50]
I'm more concerned with keeping that thieving fucking teenager next door out of my garage than an endless army of ping pongs coming up through Alabama to get me.
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