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Posted: 1/14/2002 1:16:40 AM EDT
[#1]
bigger ... badder ... wider
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Posted: 1/14/2002 5:37:04 AM EDT
[#2]
I got my coins stacked up. I'm ready to go.
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Posted: 1/14/2002 9:58:16 AM EDT
[#3]
Saw it at the Edwards 22 in Ontario. Excellent movie.
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Posted: 1/14/2002 10:14:36 AM EDT
[#4]
I saw it at the Irvine Spectrum. The theater was packed. A lot more women watching the movie than I expected.
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Posted: 1/14/2002 4:41:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Just saw the movie. IT ROCKED!!
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Posted: 1/14/2002 5:20:24 PM EDT
[#6]
anyone know what scope was used on the m14?
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Posted: 1/14/2002 5:25:16 PM EDT
[#7]
The character who was acting as Randy Shughart had an Aimpoint Comp M on the rifle, im not sure what Shughart really had on his M14.
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Posted: 1/14/2002 5:38:09 PM EDT
[#8]
I read somewhere that Shughart really did have a Aimpoint Comp M on his M14, but I don't remember where. There was a former Delta who was a technical advisor for the film, so I have to think it has some validity.
OTOH, did anyone notice the cut-down M16s instead of CAR-15s? They didn't have enough CAR-15s to go around. Did anyone notice Howe's 11.5" barreled XM177E2? At least I think it was Howe. It was one of the D-boys. Howe was the one who complained about the Army's "new green-tips" being ineffective. That's sure to fuel the never-ending debate on this board. [:\] |
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Posted: 1/15/2002 9:59:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Didn't see the cut-down M16's.
Johnny Strong (Shuggart) carried at least two rifles, an M14 and an M1A, both with Comp M's or prop Comp M's mounted over the receiver. Bill Fichtner (Sanderson/Howe) had an M16A1 with a CAR stock and an A2 upper with a 14.5 inch barrel as well as a similar rubber prop gun, not an XM177. The rubber guns can be identified by the always-closed ejection port covers, A2 rear sights molded into the carry handle and missing front sight ears and blades. A number of the rubber guns were in XM177 configuration with "A2 uppers", at least one was in M4 configuration. The effectiveness of the M855 ammunition fired from Howe's "customized CAR-15" has been feeding the non-controversy and misunderstanding of the Dr. Fackler's work since the book came out. The credit for the Military Technical Advisor went to Harry Humphries, former SEAL, as well as well as Colonels Lee VanArsdale and Tom Mathews and Sgt 1st Class Eversman. They also had others on the set who "were still working" and weren't identified. Among the extras and stunt guys playing the parts of Deltoids, Rangers and aircrew were several of the former Rangers who were in the fight. They came to the set on their own nickel to watch and were cast as extras as much as they wanted. Also on hand were some personnel still on active duty who were there. |
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Posted: 1/16/2002 12:32:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Damn Dave, you really looked close at those prop guns didn't you? [:D] Okay, so Fichtner (Howe) had a 11.5" barreled M16A1 but I knew I saw some XM177s in there. IIRC, the guy who played Gary Gordon had what looked like a suppressed XM177. Overall, I think they did a pretty accurate job weapons-wise, although keen eyes like yours would catch the gaffs. [;)] They got Durant's MP5 right, and I thought the scene where Hoot (a fictional composite character) double-tapped the two Sammies with his M9 Beretta was cool.
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Posted: 1/17/2002 9:02:55 PM EDT
[#11]
Bear,
I have a hundred or so stills from the set, the damaged weapons from the actual event and the movie armory. There were no XM177s visible in either the stills or the film. All of the XM177 type weapons had A2 uppers including the rubber guns. XM177's had M16 or M16A1 uppers. There are photos of TFR personnel with M4 Carbines and short-barrel CAR's fitted with long suppressors. The weapon carried by the actor playing Gordon was like those. It had an A2 upper. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Dave%5FG%2FBHD%2Ejpg[/img] |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 5:41:02 AM EDT
[#12]
Can't wait to go see it.
Hopefully people will realize that this is the face of interventionism. And maybe we will pull our troops back from all over the world and have them do what they are supposed to be doing: defending America and her borders. I doubt it though. More brave American boys will die for other people's fights. Sad really. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 8:35:19 AM EDT
[#13]
Yup, that's an A2 upper. Can't see the short barrel or suppressor though, but I remember it from the movie. I have to go see it again now that it's playing closer to home. You always catch more detail the second, third, etc. time around.
It's funny, but when we saw the movie my wife noticed some of the guys had long hair and weren't clean shaven, and she asked me why. It's a Delta thing. Same with the hockey helmets instead of a kevlar pot. The scene when these two guys got zapped was very hard to watch, for me anyway. Regarding the cut-down M16s, that was according to Lee Van Arsdale in a commentary on suasponte.com. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 10:20:57 AM EDT
[#14]
lib,
Youngster, your backward, isolationist BS rants are wearing thin. Why don't you just go piss on the graves of the 19 dead American warriors that the film and book Black Hawk Down honors? Those men had the courage to volunteer to defend this country and it's interests by enlisting in the military and placing their lives on the line. They made the ultimate sacrifice. They deserve our thanks and our deepest respect. You, on the other hand, whined that you thought about enlisting but decided that it wasn't for you because you have a problem with authority, specifically, following someone else's orders. You lack maturity and you don't appear to have any true life experience or understanding of what the world really is like. You deserve no respect at all. Maybe you'll grow up one day. Using a tribute to the courage and sacrifice of men who gave all in the defense of this country and their comrades in an effort to lend weight to a stupid, out of date, backward political rant is nothing less than thoroughly disgusting. You owe them, each and every one, an apology... |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 10:24:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I have a hundred or so stills from the set, the damaged weapons from the actual event and the movie armory. Share them please.... |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 10:52:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Printed out my advance tickets for the 1pm showing tomorrow. I have been looking forward to this movie for almost a year now. I'm going to see it with my brother. I just hope I don't lose it in the theater. Hell, the book had me in tears!
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Posted: 1/18/2002 11:28:13 AM EDT
[#17]
Going tonight or first show tomorrow!
My bride lost her job today, so she wants to go to the range and go see a movie that will take her mind off of our minor troubles with her job and money. Of course, John1948 mentioned women at the movies, I think the chicks wants to go see Hartnett in the movie. The book was amazing and I cannot wait to see how closely they keep to the truth in the film. I hope it captures the truth about what our guys went through because of Klinton having his head up his ass, as usual. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 11:35:36 AM EDT
[#18]
They really didn't focus that much on any one character, which was good.
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Posted: 1/18/2002 11:50:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: BHD is now playing in 10 theaters in the LA/Orange County/Ontario area. Go to [url]http://www.moviefone.com/[/url] and pick "Black Hawk Down" from the search by movie title option. There is an interesting interview with Mark Bowden the author of Black Hawk Down. [url]http://www.moviefone.com/features/feature.adp?_dci_s_p=main&_dci_p_c=0&_dci_s_a=home&_dci_s_b=newmoviefone&_dci_s_c=national&id=1009988102%2c0&_dci_e_t=p&_dci_l_n=mflnk%2efeatures%2efeature%2eid%2d1009988102%2c0&_dci_tm=1011385806&_dci_l_a=12161&_dci_p_n=mf%5fmain2a&_dci_l_c=0&_dci_p_a=12161&_dci_p_b=mf%5fmain2%2ehome%2emain[/url] |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 12:12:53 PM EDT
[#20]
I just finished watching Black Hawk Down. Excellent movie; I will not comment except I wonder what would have happened if Slick Willie would have let them use AC-130’s and armor.
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Posted: 1/18/2002 12:24:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I have a hundred or so stills from the set, the damaged weapons from the actual event and the movie armory. Are those pix available on-line? I would like take a look at them, looks like some neat images, but please be sure that it is legal. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 1:53:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: lib, Youngster, your backward, isolationist BS rants are wearing thin. Why don't you just go piss on the graves of the 19 dead American warriors that the film and book Black Hawk Down honors? My beliefs are neither backward nor isolantionist. They are the same as our Founding Fathers. Why don't you go piss on their graves for you statist beliefs. Where have I said I do not honor the men who died? Read my post, I called them brave. I honor the men who fought and died, but I despise the mission and their commander and chief they fought for. They did not die for our freedom. they died for nothing. I hope they rest in peace and made it into heaven. Those men had the courage to volunteer to defend this country and it's interests by enlisting in the military and placing their lives on the line. They made the ultimate sacrifice. They deserve our thanks and our deepest respect. You, on the other hand, whined that you thought about enlisting but decided that it wasn't for you because you have a problem with authority, specifically, following someone else's orders. You lack maturity and you don't appear to have any true life experience or understanding of what the world really is like. You deserve no respect at all. Maybe you'll grow up one day. My life experience has nothing to do with whether I am right or wrong. That is a diversion, a fallacy. It may be why I am more likely to believe it, but not if it is right. And you deserve no respect, ex LEO or not. You are a statist. Sending brave, young men to die not for freedom, not for the ideals of our country and our Founders, but for interventionism, for statism, and for evil men. Using a tribute to the courage and sacrifice of men who gave all in the defense of this country and their comrades in an effort to lend weight to a stupid, out of date, backward political rant is nothing less than thoroughly disgusting. The men were courageous and they gave the ultimate sacrifice. I honor them. But they did not die for our country. They did not die for freedom for defense. They died for the UN, for statism. It wasn't really their place to question what they were doing. They were just following orders, although I and many others would not fault them and would support them if they did question that. Non-interventionism, what I believe, is not any more out of date, backward, stupid, or ancient then the Constitution, the Second Amendment, or the Liberty you supposedly support. You owe them, each and every one, an apology... No, you owe each and every man, women, and child who fought in 1776 to bring this country into existance, who fought to break away from the same kind of empire that you know support, who created and supported our wonderful Constitution. You dishonor their same by your beliefs. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 4:08:14 PM EDT
[#23]
lib,
It has been said that those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Many held views similar to your own after The Great War. "Retreat within our borders and ignore the rest of the world. It's none of our business." Isolationism carried to the level of lunacy. Your "non-interventionism" is no different from the isolationism of the 1930's. Isolationism ultimately cost us dearly. Fortunately, the following of your misguided world view was small to begin with. After September 11th, it's smaller still. Your lack of life experience has everything to do with your ignorance and total lack of understanding that the world of the Eighteenth Century is long dead, and many of it's lessons lost to those who would withdraw behind the imaginary shield of a citizen militia. It wasn’t just the blood, sweat and courage of those who fought England that ultimately gained us our independence. It was the [b]interventionism[/b] of France. Left to fight on our own against Great Britain, the Revolution would have been crushed. It’s a good thing for us that the French intervened. You demand the rights guaranteed by the Constitution and defended by selfless men and women who offer their all so that whining, selfish little people can cower in their warm dry homes, watch TV, play on their computers and enjoy the freedom served up for them on a silver platter, but you refuse to serve your country. You are a pathetic, small little man. Not much more than a boy, really, and certainly not worthy of the gifts given freely by those who serve. By the way, history boy; the American War for Independence effectively ran from April 19, 1775 through April 11, 1783 when Congress officially declared an end to the war. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 8:39:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: My beliefs are neither backward nor isolantionist. Oh of course they are. Who do you think you're kidding? They are the same as our Founding Fathers. Why don't you go piss on their graves for you statist beliefs. ROFL! Yeah, that's the ticket...if you don't agree with lib's ideas about foreign policy, you're just pissing all over the Founders... ROFLMAO!! Talk about arrogant... |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 8:53:29 PM EDT
[#25]
... I couldn't get an answer on the "other" Backhawk Down thread so I'll ask here.
(1) Didn't our soldiers have ACOGs then? I was surprised to see Aimpoints used. (2) Why was the union on the American flag patches on the upper right as opposed to the proper way to display on the upper left? (3) If the mission was to really take place in less time then the need for a canteen would the medics really have the supplies they did when they were trapped? ... My observation (because I'm in that business) was that the little birds "could" have played a much more active role providing cover overnight while they were awaiting the convoy. It would be disruptive and demoralizing as hell to attempt to respond to hit and run tactics when they are flying with only navigation lights. An AC130 Spectre would have been too indiscriminate in that application I believe. I know it’s Hollywood, and it may have HAD to be done that way for effect but engaging “skinnys” at the ranges depicted would have yielded much more casualties. ... I was on the edge of my seat throughout the entire movie. Went with a good size group of friends. The guys liked it and the girls I don't think were as impressed. I liked the movie. … HOOO RAHHHHH |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 8:58:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: lib, It has been said that those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Many held views similar to your own after The Great War. "Retreat within our borders and ignore the rest of the world. It's none of our business." Isolationism carried to the level of lunacy. Your "non-interventionism" is no different from the isolationism of the 1930's. Isolationism ultimately cost us dearly. Yes, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. It seems you have forgotten history. The Great War was a result of our interventionism. It brought about the Nazi regime, and just like when gun control fails anti-gunners call for more gun control, interventionism failed and logically interventionist call for more intervention. We don't have to ignore the world. We should keep up with the happenings of it. But we shouldn't send our boys to die for misguided reasons. Fortunately, the following of your misguided world view was small to begin with. After September 11th, it's smaller still. Sept. 11 confirmed my history-guided view of the world. Your lack of life experience has everything to do with your ignorance and total lack of understanding that the world of the Eighteenth Century is long dead, and many of it's lessons lost to those who would withdraw behind the imaginary shield of a citizen militia. It wasn’t just the blood, sweat and courage of those who fought England that ultimately gained us our independence. It was the [b]interventionism[/b] of France. Left to fight on our own against Great Britain, the Revolution would have been crushed. It’s a good thing for us that the French intervened. Yes the French intervened, but not for us. They wanted to get back at England. We played and used them. The Founders had no intention of following France's example. They knew that the history of Europe was filled with wars. They wanted to avoid that. Yet we have ignored their wisdom. Just like we have ignored their Constitution, and the Second Amendment. The world never really changes. It seems like it, but it never does. You argue that we don't live in an 18th Century world. I assume you have turned in your guns, since we are now in the 21st century with police and military forces to protect us, who needs guns? You demand the rights guaranteed by the Constitution and defended by selfless men and women who offer their all so that whining, selfish little people can cower in their warm dry homes, watch TV, play on their computers and enjoy the freedom served up for them on a silver platter, but you refuse to serve your country. You are a pathetic, small little man. Not much more than a boy, really, and certainly not worthy of the gifts given freely by those who serve. You are a old, angry, misguided boy in a man's body. Fortunately, you are the past, and hopefully people like me can get this country back to where we started, because we are the future. By the way, history boy; the American War for Independence effectively ran from April 19, 1775 through April 11, 1783 when Congress officially declared an end to the war. Yep. 1776 was just a convenient date to illustrate my point. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:01:41 PM EDT
[#27]
(2) Why was the union on the American flag patches on the upper right as opposed to the proper way to display on the upper left? Will someone PLEASE answer this? |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:12:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Texason,
Look here for the answer: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=87471[/url] Wolf, It's a movie with weapons from a movie company armory, not the ones at Bragg. Why even take a Medic if he isn't going to haul his gear around with him? The Little Birds did a lot more minigun and rocket work than was portrayed in the film and the AC-130 is a bit more accurate than you might expect. You must hit a target to hurt it. A gunfight, any gunfight, is not like practice at the range or range drills. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:16:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Dave G
Good points you made to Lib - Recommend the book by Robert A. Heilien "Starship Trooper" to him. RAH envisioned a government where you had to serve before you could vote. A small point. The Revolution did not really end until the battle of New Orleans in 1814. The British did not give upon their idea of reestablishing themselves in America until we kicked their ass out of the Mississippi River. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:23:43 PM EDT
[#30]
I am relatively new to the military firearm circle but what was the belt fed that the deaf guy and his partner were carring around? Also, where can i get a civilian version?
Keving67 |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:26:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: My beliefs are neither backward nor isolantionist. Oh of course they are. Who do you think you're kidding? They are? Care to offer any proof? Or is it so because you are oh so wise and old and full of life experience? Talk about arrogant... They are the same as our Founding Fathers. Why don't you go piss on their graves for you statist beliefs. ROFL! Yeah, that's the ticket...if you don't agree with lib's ideas about foreign policy, you're just pissing all over the Founders... ROFLMAO!! Talk about arrogant... Damn straight. And I have proof about it too. Yours seems to consist of name calling and stomping your feet like a little whiny child. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:31:09 PM EDT
[#32]
lib,
Unfortunately, it would appear that not only haven't you learned [b]from[/b] history, you haven't even [b]learned[/b] history. The Great War was going strong for a couple-three years before we even got into it. The result of an act comes after the act, not before it. And you apparently know little about the wars between Great Britain, France and their allies in the late 18th and early 19th Centuries. France intervened on our behalf to further split the British military and naval power in an effort to win their war. Did France intervene and help us? You bet! Did they expect to engage in commerce with the newly independent US? Yes, again. History boy...[b]OUR[/b] history is full of wars, the most devastating of which we fought exclusively among ourselves. And 1776 is a year. July 4, 1776 is a date. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:40:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: lib, Unfortunately, it would appear that not only haven't you learned [b]from[/b] history, you haven't even [b]learned[/b] history. The Great War was going strong for a couple-three years before we even got into it. The result of an act comes after the act, not before it. Oh, I know WWI started before we got involved. However, it was at a stalemate when we finally got involved. We tipped the balance, then force Germany to her knees, bringing about Hitler. Had we stayed out of WWI, it would have ended, and Hitler would have been a no-name soldier of Germany. Doesn't mean there wouldn't have been anymore wars, but then again, nothing can stop war. And you apparently know little about the wars between Great Britain, France and their allies in the late 18th and early 19th Centuries. France intervened on our behalf to further split the British military and naval power in an effort to win their war. Did France intervene and help us? You bet! Did they expect to engage in commerce with the newly independent US? Yes, again. I have no problem with engaging in commerce with other nations. What I do have a problem with is sending our boys to die for them. History boy...[b]OUR[/b] history is full of wars, the most devastating of which we fought exclusively among ourselves. And 1776 is a year. July 4, 1776 is a date. Our history is full of wars brought on by statism and interventionism(Civil War, Spanish-American War, etc). Had we be not so gungho on telling what the world to do, many Americans would not have died. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:41:58 PM EDT
[#34]
flash,
I would, but he would probably just watch Verhoven's movie and never see, much less understand what Heinlein intended. To truly understand "Starship Troopers" by R. A. Heinlien, you must have either served in the military or understand the military mindset. Lib is a child who has led a sheltered life and who dislikes authority figures. I like the Heinlein future of Starship Troopers. Lib likely wouldn’t appreciate it at all. Your point on the War of 1812 was well taken, but the war was actually over a couple of months before the battle of New Orleans. keving, One was an M60 and the other an M249. An expensive semi-auto version of the m60 is available now, and one of the M249 is expected soon. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:45:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: flash, I would, but he would probably just watch Verhoven's movie and never see, much less understand what Heinlein intended. To truly understand "Starship Troopers" by R. A. Heinlien, you must have either served in the military or understand the military mindset. Lib is a child who has led a sheltered life and who dislikes authority figures. I like the Heinlein future of Starship Troopers. Lib likely wouldn’t appreciate it at all. I've read Starship Troopers. It was a good book. Unrealistic, but still good. Forcing people to serve is called the militia, but then, that is SO outdated... |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:53:57 PM EDT
[#36]
libby,
You want proof? You can't handle the proof! Not only that, but we were for all intents and purposes self-excluded from the process that created the circumstances that allowed Hitler to rise to power when President Wilson became incapacitated from a stroke. The Civil War was the result of statism and interventionism? Gee, I thought it was secession from the Union. You know libby, old girl, sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. When your friends stand up to help you out against a tyrant, it’s only honorable to stand by them when they are in need. But you wouldn’t understand that, not having any honor and all… |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 9:55:21 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: flash, I would, but he would probably just watch Verhoven's movie and never see, much less understand what Heinlein intended. To truly understand "Starship Troopers" by R. A. Heinlien, you must have either served in the military or understand the military mindset. Lib is a child who has led a sheltered life and who dislikes authority figures. I like the Heinlein future of Starship Troopers. Lib likely wouldn’t appreciate it at all. I've read Starship Troopers. It was a good book. Unrealistic, but still good. Forcing people to serve is called the militia, but then, that is SO outdated... No one in the book was forced to serve. I think you need to go back and read it. In fact, they tried to psyche people out of serving. That was the whole point; your duty to serve was your choice and if you did, you reaped the rewards of a full citizen. |
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Posted: 1/18/2002 10:02:38 PM EDT
[#38]
libby...libby...libby...
No man was forced to serve in the military in Heinlein's or Verhoven's "Starship Troopers." Federal Service in any capacity was strictly voluntary and service guaranteed full citizenship. All people enjoyed full freedoms and rights with the only exception being that suffrage and political office were limited to those who had served. The draft is not outdated. It serves to instill discipline into intellectual children who totally lack it and it tends to maintain a satisfactory balance between a totally professional military and citizen militia. Keep it up, kid. Every time you post something you look dumb and dumber. |
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Posted: 1/19/2002 7:35:47 AM EDT
[#39]
Uhh, I think you guys are arguing the flip sides of the same coin. BOTH OF YOU HAVE MERIT IN YOUR ARGUMENTS. LIBERTYOF75 Everything you said was right on. THE MISSION WAS NOT A GOOD ONE. But the mission was the mission.
EVERY THAT Dave G said is accurate as well, I don't think either one of you is isolationist. BOTH OF YOU ARE RIGHT. FROM SEPERATE POINTS OF VIEW. THE UN IS FLAT OUT WRONG , BOTH OF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT> LIBERTY DOES SOLUTE AND HONOR OUR MEN, I THINK EVEN MORE SO BY CALLING THE PEOPLE WHO SENT THEM THEIR INTO QUESTION. WE ALL UNDERSTAND THE BACKGROUND OF THE MISSION. PHILOSOPHICALLY SPEAKING THE , AND AS BOTH OF YOU ARE AWARE. SUPPORTING THE CONSTITUTION AS IT WAS INTENDED TAKES A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PHILOSOPHY IN THAT MANY OF THE IDEAS THAT THIS NATION IS BASED UPON HAD NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE. THEY WERE INVENTED BY ARISTOTLE AND OTHERS IN THE GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD. DAVE_G IS CORRECT IN THAT THE WORLD DOES TAKE OUR INTERVENTION BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE MAY HAVE CERTAIN IDEAS HERE ABOUT LIVE AND LET LIVE WE ARE ALL WELL AWARE THAT MOST COUNTRIES DO NOT LIVE BY THOSE SAME IDEAS. SO IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE WE KEEP THE WORLD SAFE FOR OURSELVES WE ARE CONSTANTLY SEEKING ENDS IN OTHER COUNTRIES WHICH WILL ALLOW US A CERTAIN LEVEL OF PEACE AND FREEDOM HERE. BENJAMIN |
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Posted: 1/19/2002 10:04:34 AM EDT
[#40]
Ben,
libby is only giving our military transparently insincere lip service as a means to express his own misguided political beliefs. Do a bit of research on his past postings and you will find him making statements advocating the murder of police officers and anyone else acting officially while enforcing laws he considers unconstitutional, as long as he thinks he could get away with it. He is also very anti military, preferring to return the US to an 18th Century agrarian society with no standing military, only a citizen militia. He's a looney tune; intellectually a child, possessing neither honor nor backbone. |
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Posted: 1/19/2002 10:08:03 AM EDT
[#41]
I'm off to see BHD now!! Laterz all!!
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Posted: 1/19/2002 10:19:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Fortunately, you are the past, and hopefully people like me can get this country back to where we started, because we are the future. Lib, do you [i]REALLY[/i] believe this? You're doing a poor job of it on this site, at least. One which ought to be easy pickings for you, except you have lost all credibility, IMHO. |
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Posted: 1/19/2002 11:12:32 AM EDT
[#43]
BEN, I FIND IT HARD TO TAKE SOMEONE SERIOUSLY WHO CAN'T EVEN FIND THEIR CAPSLOCK KEY!
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Posted: 1/19/2002 1:15:47 PM EDT
[#44]
A great movie. I definately will see it again. Because of all you experts out there, pointing out all the little things that you noticed, I guess I'll have to see it 7 or 8 times instead of 3 or 4 just to pick out all that you guys spotted.
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Posted: 1/19/2002 1:35:03 PM EDT
[#45]
odobo,
My [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Dave%5FG%2FBS1%2Egif[/img] or libby's [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Dave%5FG%2FBS1%2Egif[/img]? [:D] libby, This one has run it's course. If you want to reply one more time, do so. Take a free shot. |
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Posted: 1/19/2002 4:38:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: libby, You want proof? You can't handle the proof! Sure I can. I have revised much of what I have believed as I come into posession of more, and contridictory, evidence. Among my revisions are going from supporting the North in the Civil War to the South and supporting interventionism to non-interventionism. Not only that, but we were for all intents and purposes self-excluded from the process that created the circumstances that allowed Hitler to rise to power when President Wilson became incapacitated from a stroke. But if we wouldn't have been involved in the war in the first place, those "circumstances" would never had occurred. The Civil War was the result of statism and interventionism? Gee, I thought it was secession from the Union. Yep. The South seceeded peacefully, until the North positioned them into attacking. Bringing the South to her knees and disregarding the Constitution is statism and interventionism. You know libby, old girl, sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. When your friends stand up to help you out against a tyrant, it’s only honorable to stand by them when they are in need. But you wouldn’t understand that, not having any honor and all… I have more honor than you. Of course how would you know about fighting a tyrant? You are supporting them. Quoted: libby...libby...libby... No man was forced to serve in the military in Heinlein's or Verhoven's "Starship Troopers." Federal Service in any capacity was strictly voluntary and service guaranteed full citizenship. All people enjoyed full freedoms and rights with the only exception being that suffrage and political office were limited to those who had served. My bad, its been a while since I read it. Still, it is not much different than what I propose, except using the militia instead of a standing army. The draft is not outdated. It serves to instill discipline into intellectual children who totally lack it and it tends to maintain a satisfactory balance between a totally professional military and citizen militia. The draft is outdated. Volunteers are much better as soldiers. Keep it up, kid. Every time you post something you look dumb and dumber. Keep it up, old man. Every time you post you expose you statism and elitism more and more, and show yourself to be an enemy of liberty. |
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