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Posted: 12/29/2001 3:06:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Debates about deeply-held beliefs can be interesting, uplifting, and meaningful. They can become mean-spirited and debased. For everyone's info, there is a forum at www.glocktalk.com specifically for religious debate.
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Posted: 12/29/2001 3:15:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Allow me to answer using two famous sayings from a devout non-Christian, Socrates, the Greek philosopher:
[b]"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."[/b] [b]"An unexamined life is not worth living."[/b] So threads such as those involving religious issues may serve two very useful purposes - the first being to share knowledge and to dispel ignorance concerning such matters, and the second, more importantly, is to permit each reader to examine his or her own thoughts, ideas, preconceived notions, prejudices, etc., with the goal of examining these matters and resolving any conflicts. Both are worthy goals. Just imagine yourself at a very large dinner party. The dinner is finished and the guests have broken up into little groups in separate rooms, some folks are in the living room and are discussing politics, education, and the like, some guys are in the kitchen talking about sports, cars, and firearms, still others are in the den speaking of politics and religion. How would you conduct yourself there? Most likely you would gravitate toward the group whose discussions interested you the most, right? The one thing that you would surely [u]not[/u] do would be to barge into one of the rooms and demand that the individuals there stop discussing whatever it is they're discussing! So, please, if these threads offend thee, pluck them out from your required viewing list. Eric The(Sincere)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 3:50:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Do religion debates ever solve anything? Do debates about.. politics, the environment, import vs domestic automobiles, reloading equipment, firearms, Ali vs Tyson, football, the weather, etc. ad nauseam? I have watched people literally come to blows "debating" some of the above subjects. Gotta go with Eric on this one. Eddie |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 3:52:01 AM EDT
[#4]
If not religion, then what are we gonna debate endlessly about?
God or Church? AR vs. Ak? M855 vs. Q3131A? Coke or Pepsi? Ginger or Mary Ann? ? Is it just human nature to beat a dead horse? [?] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:03:58 AM EDT
[#5]
Don't like 'em? Don't read 'em.
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:06:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Eric the Hun...I agree with your point on ignorance, but debates between proven fact and debates between personal faith and beliefs are different.
You cannot nor should you debate someone's faith. As you should know, faith is not based on proven fact, but something that you truly believe in. I could actually call you ignorant just by you refusing to learn more about a more scientific reason how the world was born and how we exist rather from a religious reason. But do I want to call you ignorant? No, because I am not ignorant to accept the fact that you need your faith in God, therefore I don't want to debate about the existance in God. My lifestyle and reason for exisisting is not converting other people's religious beliefs and debating someone's faith to suit my own, which is truly the most ignorant act of them all. [b]ArmaLiter[/b] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:07:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Agree with Eric.
Always pick Mary Ann. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:23:22 AM EDT
[#8]
You guys are comparing debates on religion and faith with debates on something like politics, favorite firearm and Ginger or Mary Ann?
I think someone's faith is more important and on a different level than what favorite soft-drink they prefer. You don't have a Religion Taste Test. Am I an atheist who actually has more sensitivity and honor towards faith and religious beliefs than religious people do? Hell, God may like me better than his own followers. [rolleyes] [b]ArmaLiter[/b] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:28:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Gee....that's a toughie. We should all ask ourselves, "What Would Jesus Do?"
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:35:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Armaliter,
The fact that you see no need to "convert" others to whatever your belief system eschews has little bearing on the obligation others may feel regarding service to their creator and their fellow man. Debate is healthy. It promotes growth. If you are uncomfortable reading those topics, don't. You arrived at your own conclusions using the imput of others, did you not? That is how most of us learn. I never pass on an oportunity to vote for Mary Ann. It was not meant to have a huge impact on this conversation. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:41:58 AM EDT
[#11]
Interesting subject. If life was a matter of "We are not going to change each other's mind, about logic vs emotion, so let's just let each other be," then [b]nothing[/b] would ever get discussed. We would be too busy respecting everybody's feelings to be able to wring out a topic to some kind of satisfactory conclusion. These religious debates do serve a purpose. Specifically, the Model Of Rights that is utilized in this country is [i]God>>People>>Government[/i]. All of our Natural Rights come from God, and the government is not authorized to do nothing but what We the People permit.
Let me ask YOU a question. What does the nonexistance of God, in your opinion, do for your Right to Keep and Bear Arms? |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:14:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Armaliter,
I was using a comic vehicle to agree with your original post. That endless debates tend to solve very little. I was comparing the relative DEBATES of various, hotly contested, subjects. I was not comparing a religion to a taste test. You even suggested that one should quickly change the subject. I think the main reason many of us debate religion or other topics is: we just like to argue. Admit it, it can be fun. Sometimes. And it is human nature to beat a dead horse. God likes me best. He told me so. He also said you should put some pants on. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:19:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: All of our Natural Rights come from God, and the government is not authorized to do nothing but what We the People permit. Let me ask YOU a question. What does the nonexistance of God, in your opinion, do for your Right to Keep and Bear Arms? First thing is where our natural rights come from. God? Well, if you believe in God then, well, yes, probably. If you don't believe in God, then they are just natural born rights thay everyone deserves to be born with. Second, The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is "supposed" to be a right of ours for our natural right to defend ourselves. I this was a God given right then, let's see...God forgot to enforce this right over Illinois where we can't have CCW. I don't know why. There's thousands of churches here with people praying to God. So that makes Richie Daley and his anti-gun cronies more powerful than God. If I believed in God, that wouldn't change the infringment of my right to bear arms. That would just make me a Christian who couldn't carry concealed weapons in IL. Freedom of religion and RKBA are not treated the same. Everyone has the right to believe or not believe in whatever religion they choose. Since the majority of people in this country and governement have some type of religious faith, that right is more enforced than the right to keep and bear arms which isn't as strong as a belief by the majority of people. [b]ArmaLiter[/b] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:37:29 AM EDT
[#14]
ArmaLiter, Read This: [url]http://www.nara.gov/exhall/charters/declaration/declaration.html[/url]
The Declaration Of Independance is the reason I am openminded about religion, Christianity, and the Existance of God. I read it, and realized, that if there is no God, my right to keep and bear arms DOES NOT EXIST! If it does exist in the absence of God, it exists only in your own mind, and nobody has to respect it. You have NO RKBA without God. You would have to submit to the wishes of the majority, and get rid of your Black Rifle. Without God, truth is only dictated by the wishes of the majority. You know better than that, I am thinking. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:43:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I read it, and realized, that if there is no God, my right to keep and bear arms DOES NOT EXIST! If it does exist in the absence of God, it exists only in your own mind, and nobody has to respect it. You have NO RKBA without God. You would have to submit to the wishes of the majority, and get rid of your Black Rifle. Without God, truth is only dictated by the wishes of the majority. You know better than that, I am thinking. Sorry, but that's just plain bull. Of COURSE rights exist only in our minds...where else could ideas exist? And of course you have to FIGHT to get your rights...why else did we fight the American War for Independence? Whether God exists or not, the rights we enjoy today simply DID NOT EXIST for most of the history of humanity...if they are "God-given" why did He wait so long to express them? If they are "God-given" why are they so EASILY done away with by various governments? No, your whole point is ludicrous upon even casual examination. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:54:06 AM EDT
[#16]
It's hilarious how a thread requesting to no longer debate a certain issue, is actually begging for debate... [:D]
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:56:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Sorry, ArmaLiter, it's just not going to happen. Most reasons have been mentioned- including the need to preach/proselytize, or the love of argument. Add the anonymity of the Net, with little accountability, and this is what you've got.
I agree that minds will not be changed, and that these are beliefs held with more or less vigor. And frankly, I think we engage in these discussions for the same reasons we own and shoot our guns- for the fun of it. And maybe more than just a little bit of ego, too! |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:58:43 AM EDT
[#18]
"Ahhh Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help me hit curveball."
"Are you tryin to say that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball!?!?" [img]http://www.baseball-almanac.com/mve_mjlg.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:00:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Please. Whatever you do, don't read this post.
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:09:25 AM EDT
[#20]
Armaliter,
on this you may be assured - ain't nobody being converted to anything by any of us on this board!! While an 'Agnostic' I'm a deep believer in GOD and the God I believe in is mighty powerful and compassionate but with a sense of humor. I believe we must have provided Him much entertainment with our 'enlightened' posts ! (Don't pay no attention to that "Hun." He knows a bunch of them old 'mob' guys like this Socrates and is always trying to pass them off as Greek or something.) [:D] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:11:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: It's hilarious how a thread requesting to no longer debate a certain issue, is actually begging for debate... [:D] I know it seems awful strange doesnt it. Here's my 02 cents; we americans are in fact living in a very blessed nation! see other wise you would get your dreams of SHTF senerio! |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:16:29 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: ....with debates on Ginger or Mary Ann? (No debate here. It's Ginger by a tongue.) .... than what favorite soft-drink they prefer. (Pepsi) Hell, God may like me better than his own followers. [rolleyes] (Not unless you have an original ArmaLite AR-10.)[:D] [b]ArmaLiter[/b] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:19:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Please. Whatever you do, don't read this post. You've got it. You can't make me read this post. No way. (Spearweasel, any relation to the Gardenweasel ?) |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:25:10 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Please. Whatever you do, don't read this post. What??!! No! Wait! Oh, man! Now my mind is melting... Arrrgghhh!! |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:36:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: I read it, and realized, that if there is no God, my right to keep and bear arms DOES NOT EXIST! If it does exist in the absence of God, it exists only in your own mind, and nobody has to respect it. You have NO RKBA without God. You would have to submit to the wishes of the majority, and get rid of your Black Rifle. Without God, truth is only dictated by the wishes of the majority. You know better than that, I am thinking. Sorry, but that's just plain bull. Of COURSE rights exist only in our minds...where else could ideas exist? And of course you have to FIGHT to get your rights...why else did we fight the American War for Independence? Whether God exists or not, the rights we enjoy today simply DID NOT EXIST for most of the history of humanity...if they are "God-given" why did He wait so long to express them? If they are "God-given" why are they so EASILY done away with by various governments? No, your whole point is ludicrous upon even casual examination. [BD]First KB tells me he thinks I am Garandman, then you pop up with this. I am a lucky, lucky man. [BD] Ok, ok, you have me on this one. I will call it a partial draw, and here is why: The Model of Rights as explained in the Declaration are supposed to signify an official recognition that by being Creatures of God, rational and emotive beings, with a consciousness and a conscience, we are endowed with what are implied to be universal rights. You have been created, do you not have a right to live your life? Do you not have a right to defend your life and the life of others? Do not ALL intelligent beings have this right, by virtue of existing? Yes, this is your entire point, and I just did the work of making it for you. How blessed you are [:I]. However, there is a point that I attempt to bring up, and I have never seen it acknowledged on it's own terms. It is that we are living, thinking, rational emotive beings, within intelligence quotient. How can the products of a universe exhibit characteristics which the universe does NOT have, on it's own? Do you have characteristics, when you were born, that your parents did not pass down to you? Physically, you are a product of your parent's genetic makeup. If the genetic makeup of the universe does not contain code, or does not exhibit characteristics which we obviously manifest, where did the characteristics come from? While I am somewhat of an uneducated person, and I do not know if what I have just done is extrapolation or interpolation, I do not believe I am that far off the mark. My opinion was changed by the facts presented to me. If you got facts, or a good opinion or worldview, hang it all out to help the cause. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:37:15 AM EDT
[#26]
Post from ArmaLiter -
If you don't believe in God, then they are just natural born rights thay everyone deserves to be born with. Says who? What scientific facts prove that 'everyone deserves to be born' imbued with inalianable rights? Hell, God may like me better than his own followers. God who? Eric The(BatheMaryAnn,AndThenBringHerToMe!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:42:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: (Spearweasel, any relation to the Gardenweasel ?) Close... in the SCA, one of my friends saw me fighting with a polearm in such a way that it looked like I was using a Garden Weasel. The nickname stuck. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 7:37:14 AM EDT
[#28]
I don't debate.I do believe.As for your belief that's between you and God.
[img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/039/Gb/Ra/9c/fx32088.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 8:15:20 AM EDT
[#29]
One_Slayer,
that's some pretty symbolic symbolism you've posted there. But where's the sword ?? |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 8:21:24 AM EDT
[#30]
The M16 died on the cross, and rose from the dead as an M4 to pay for our sins? Pray to our Lord, the AR-15, and say: "Hallelujah!!"
"And thou shall have no AK's before me!" I like it! Pass the collections plate... |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 8:38:37 AM EDT
[#31]
here is my take. the religious topics here are fine as long as they don't expand into personal crusades on other threads. As i have ranted before on other threads. If you don't like the thread. DOn't f'ing read it.
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Posted: 12/29/2001 8:40:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: here is my take. the religious topics here are fine as long as they don't expand into personal crusades on other threads. As i have ranted before on other threads. If you don't like the thread. DOn't f'ing read it. T Beer S, do you believe a "dirt nap" is in order for repeat offenders ?? |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 8:46:50 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Agree with Eric. Always pick Mary Ann. Ditto! [:D] Tyler |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 9:15:10 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: here is my take. the religious topics here are fine as long as they don't expand into personal crusades on other threads. As i have ranted before on other threads. If you don't like the thread. DOn't f'ing read it. T Beer S, do you believe a "dirt nap" is in order for repeat offenders ?? Yes but only for people from OK. mike |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 9:26:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Quoted: T Beer S, do you believe a "dirt nap" is in order for repeat offenders ?? Yes but only for people from OK. mike PREJUDICE and from an admitted slayer that can't even spell "Buminham." [:D] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 12:55:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: It's hilarious how a thread requesting to no longer debate a certain issue, is actually begging for debate... [:D] You're right. What did I do? I created a monster! [BD] Lesson learned; never ask anyone not to debate on a certain subject. Some people exist just for the purpose of debating. Edited to note; One_Slayer, even though I am not a religious person, FWIW, I do think that pic with the AR and crosses in a pretty unique. Looks good. [b]Arma[/b](NotGoingToInterfereWithReligionTopicsAnymore)[b]Liter[/b] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 1:56:16 PM EDT
[#37]
I could actually call you ignorant just by you refusing to learn more about a more scientific reason how the world was born and how we exist rather from a religious reason. Last I checked the big bang theory was still a (ever changing) theory. You guys are comparing debates on religion and faith with debates on something like politics, favorite firearm and Ginger or Mary Ann? You missed the point. You suggested we stop debating religion because it can turn into an arguement. I was simply pointing out that any debate can turn into an arguement. God may like me better than his own followers. What God? Actually, you're close. God loves you as much as he does me. Eddie |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 2:10:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I could actually call you ignorant just by you refusing to learn more about a more scientific reason how the world was born and how we exist rather from a religious reason. Last I checked the big bang theory was still a (ever changing) theory. The Big Bang theory is a theory of how the universe was born, not our world. And every scientific theory changes slightly as it gets new data, but every prediction made by the Big Bang theory so far has been dead on right. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 2:20:37 PM EDT
[#39]
I'd like to share one of my favorite quotes from Jesus with everyone here:
Jesus: "What's this day of rest shit? What's this bullshit? I don't fuckin' care! It don't matter to Jesus. But you're not foolin' me, man. You might fool the fucks in the league office, but you don't fool Jesus. This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man -- ha ha! I was gonna fuck you in the ass Saturday. I fuck you in the ass next Wednesday instead. Wooo! You got a date Wednesday, baby! Let me tell you something pendejo, you pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash your piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you and stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'till it goes click." Dude: "Jesus." Jesus: "You said it man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus." - from "The Big Lebowski" This is what everyone's talking about, right? |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 3:35:03 PM EDT
[#40]
And every scientific theory changes slightly as it gets new data, but every prediction made by the Big Bang theory so far has been dead on right. How do you predicted something that has (supposedly) already happened? Do these guys play lotto? As you can probably tell, I don't buy into the bigbang/evolution religion. I believe I was created by the supreme (and only) God; I didn't evolve from pond scum. Eddie |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:40:08 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: How do you predicted something that has (supposedly) already happened? Do these guys play lotto? Sigh. A theory makes predictions about what measurements will be made of different phenomena such as the Cosmic Background Radiation, and when those measurements have been made, the predictions were correct. As you can probably tell, I don't buy into the bigbang/evolution religion I can tell from your first question that you don't know much about physics, that's what I can tell. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:22:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Getting back on topic here - I learned long ago that topics and posts like this do nothing but get them stirred up.
I posted a poll about whether or not the site should have a separate, but equal, area just for religious discussions – nope, no way, the goderators love their bully-pulpit too much. Somewhere these folks were taught that people love having God shoved into their faces at every opportunity. As an example, here’s the basic gist of ArmaLiter’s very well thought out and relevant question: [b]“Everyone should have the right to follow their own faith and beliefs. But let's be realistic. Do religion debates ever solve anything? “[/b] And the near hysterical typical reply he receives from the “Web Saviors” will go like this: [b] “What’s YOUR problem? Don’t believe in God? Do you have any scientific proof that He doesn’t exist? No! I didn’t think so. You want to spend eternity in hell that’s fine with me!”[/b] And then its always signed something like – John_Doe [:E] , the( I’mGoingToPrayForYouAnyway ) Viking_dude. You would have better luck arguing with a shoebox. Conform or be labeled a troll. That’s how it works around here. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:29:16 PM EDT
[#43]
I can tell from your first question that you don't know much about physics, that's what I can tell. I don't know much about nuclear submarines, either, but I do know they're real. Didn't mean to offend you. I guess debate about science always turns into an arguement as well. Guess we shouldn't start such discussions. Hey, I just proved my original point! Eddie |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:46:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Once in class, the professor asked why the T*r*h is so vague? The answer was simple....G*d wants us to talk a nd discuss it, as that is how we become better.
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Posted: 12/29/2001 5:50:09 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm gonna go head and guess no, religious debates will not stop whether they solve anything or not.
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:02:35 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: I don't know much about nuclear submarines, either, but I do know they're real. Go look up the term "non sequitur" in the dictionary...there might actually be a picture of you next to it. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 6:26:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Go look up the term "non sequitur" in the dictionary... What the heck does a cartoon strip have to do with anything? I must have really offended you. My work here is done. Eddie P.S. Look up the definition of pompous... |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 7:07:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Post from Dolomite -
As an example, here’s the basic gist of ArmaLiter’s very well thought out and relevant question: “Everyone should have the right to follow their own faith and beliefs. But let's be realistic. Do religion debates ever solve anything? “ And the near hysterical typical reply he receives from the “Web Saviors” will go like this: “What’s YOUR problem? Don’t believe in God? Do you have any scientific proof that He doesn’t exist? No! I didn’t think so. You want to spend eternity in hell that’s fine with me!” And then its always signed something like – John_Doe , the( I’mGoingToPrayForYouAnyway ) Viking_dude. That certainly is strange, [b]Dolomite[/b], I simply don't see [b]any[/b] 'near hysterical' response to ArmaLiter's post! None. Nada. Nichts. And no one even offered to pray for our dear friend, either! How thoughtless and cruel of us. I surely hope we didn't disappoint you. I promise we will try hard to rant on the next religious thread. I mean, it's the Christian thing to do, after all![:D] Eric The(Yeah,TheStruckDogBarks,AllRight)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 7:38:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Go look up the term "non sequitur" in the dictionary... What the heck does a cartoon strip have to do with anything? Oy. |
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Posted: 12/29/2001 7:58:12 PM EDT
[#50]
In my not so humble opinion, the purpose of religion debates is to discover arguments that we can use as common ground when talking about RKBA with a Christian, an agnostic, or an atheist. You...do...talk about RKBA with other people...right?
[b]Take notes, people, take notes. There WILL be a test, and you get ONE shot. We won't tell you what your grade is, you have to guess that.[/b] Why are you people taking it personally? This is a fascinating intellectual exercise. When you think of all these debates in the terms of RKBA, then their purpose becomes clearer. But of course, in terms of themselves, it is just fun. |
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