Los Angeles Times: U.S. Calls In 'The Varsity' to Take the Field

[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-000099377dec15.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dworld[/url]

RESPONSE TO TERROR
U.S. Calls In 'The Varsity' to Take the Field
Military: Marines seek to add to the reputation of the elite unit, which won the
nickname 'devil dogs' in WWI.
By TONY PERRY
TIMES STAFF WRITER

December 15 2001

WITH THE MARINES IN SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN -- For the war on terrorism, America
has called in "The Varsity."

The task of entering the burned-out U.S. Embassy in Kabul on Monday and the
war-torn Kandahar airport on Thursday night fell to the 3rd Battalion, 6th
Marine Regiment of the 2nd Marine Division, one of the most storied units in
Marine Corps history.

"This is not a pickup team," said Lt. Col. Jerome Lynes, commanding officer of
the Camp Lejeune, N.C.-based battalion. "These are young professionals who are
part of a long, unbroken tradition of service." That tradition includes combat
at Belleau Wood, the World War I battle in which the Germans were so impressed
by the ferocity of the Marines that they dubbed them "devil dogs," a nickname
that stuck. The "Three-Six" also fought at Tarawa, one of the bloodiest but most
decisive battles of World War II.

Among the four military services, the Marine Corps spends the most time telling
its young recruits about its history and heroes. On Friday, infantry troops from
Camp Lejeune now at Camp Rhino, the Marine outpost south of Kandahar, said their
goal is to live up to the valorous reputation of the Three-Six.

"We have big shoes to fill," said Pfc. Edmundo Ramirez, 19, of Santa Ana, who
was waiting to be flown by helicopter to the Kandahar airport in a second wave
of troops.

"There is a lot of pride being part of Three-Six, something bigger than
yourself," said Lance Cpl. Ryan Diamond, 19, of Hemet. "We've got a reputation
to uphold."

It was Lynes, a Notre Dame graduate and football enthusiast, who updated the
battalion's nickname to "The Varsity" to catch the imagination of young men who
enlist in the Corps looking for structure and challenge.

"I thought I'd spend my entire life in the barrio," said Ramirez. "I needed a
start, a step in the right direction to straighten out my life. That's why I
wanted to become a Marine."

At Kandahar, the main task of the Three-Six will be to secure the airport as
Navy Seabees work to make the 4,000-foot runway usable for military and
humanitarian aid planes.

On Thursday night, members of the Camp Pendleton-based 15th Expeditionary Unit,
guided by Afghan opposition fighters, took control of the airport's perimeter.
Members of the Camp Lejeune-based 26th Expeditionary Unit were airlifted into
the facility and began checking for booby traps and mines. The Marines entered
the airport without resistance.

"We were a bit surprised at the lack of activity when we went through the town,"
said Capt. Dan Yoo, operations officer of the 26th.

Brig. Gen. James Mattis told his troops before the airport operation that they
should attempt to buy any shoulder-launched Stinger missiles found in the
possession of an Afghan in an attempt to disarm the population. The U.S.
provided Stingers to Afghan rebels during their long fight with the Soviets.

"There are plenty still here, and we will pay big money for them," Mattis said.

As a sitting force around the airport, the Marines remain vulnerable to sniper
and terrorist attacks. Beneath the airport is a web of tunnels where enemy
forces could be hiding, Marine officials said.

"If you're a Marine, you study the lessons of Beirut every day," said Yoo,
referring to the October 1983 terrorist bombing of a Marine barracks that killed
241 U.S. personnel.

The Marines from Camp Lejeune are confident they can prevent any intruder from
getting close enough to the airport to inflict casualties. "The Three-Six never
lets America down," said Ramirez.

For information about reprinting this article, go to http://www.lats.com/rights

HMmmmmm....
A stinger buyback program.
Now where are those McDonalds gift certificates?

This is one of the things that sets Marines apart from the rest. The history of the Corps is taught to you as if it was your own family history. Once you become a Marine you can claim it as such. It is your legacy and you better not let those that came before you down.

Too bad you cannot teach your people there own history, when you service had to choose between COO and its own history, too bad they decided to teach how to get along.  If they don't know their history how do they know who they are and what traditions they must uphold?



In some Army units that would be true, but in some units the army is more concerned with other things, and is too busy to create "fanatics" willing to kill and rather die than surrender.  I may be a dumb old Marine, but I would rather share a fighting hole with someone who won't quite and won't just lie down and die.

I have never been in the U.S. Marines, but negioations and compromise will only get so far in the real world, after that, you need to crack some heads.  Those folks are not paid to be nice guys, even though many of them are.

Paul: Have you been following different new from the rest of us? The last I heard, we had liberated the Afghans from domination by a government led almost entirely by foreigners (Arabs) and were now looking for the last remnants of this foreign occupying force.
...and we wonder why so many people in other countries have misgivings about us.

Despite what the Berkeley liberals may want to say, we are a liberating force, not an occupying force - even when we have to liberate the people of a nation from their own, local, governments. As long as this is the case, we will always be the good guys - which I truly believe we are.

If I were Afghani and read this thread, I would have been wholly insulted. Think about it.


Adam

I would say it is a toss up on who has a longer battle history, but definitely neither would fit on a single page.  Although the Army may have fought more battles in the "Big" wars.  Although the Marine Corps did fight in many of the same battles.   But until the after the Second World War, the Army didn't do a lot of expeditionary warfare.  That role was solely filled by the Marine Corps, hence us deploying to action at least once every couples of months since the late 1700s.

Hmmmm...

OK, I'll bite.

The Marine Corps, by nature, is an expeditionary force - I mean, you roll with the Navy and all. The Army, by nature, is land based. We require a heckuva lot of extra crap to go "expeditionary" - from ships (historically) to aircraft. Unfortunately these all come from sources not organic to our force structure.

However, for every USMC tour to some exotic locale in the early years of our nation, there were several Army actions going on. Where was the USMC in the countless Indian Wars - or on the Frontier at all, for that matter? Who chased into Mexico the only successful invader of our soil, Pancho Villa?

Let's also not forget the Spanish American War. The Phillipines, Cuba, Vera Cruz, etc. - mainly Army from what I remember. Of course, as always we had to overcome a bit of inertia - the Army has never been much for rapid deployability - a lesson we keep relearning every so often, and are learning again.

Also the CIVIL WAR!!! There is A LOT of Army history there and where were the Marines??

However, as a proud member of the most expeditionary of Army Divisions (although a bit bogged down for the last 50+ years) - and once commanded by none other than your own MG LeJeune (I'm sorry if I horribly misspelled that), I have nothing but the utmost respect for each of our services unique capabilities and limitations.

You can't be both Big and Elite, or vice versa.
At least we're not the Navy or Air Force! [:)]


Adam

Adam

Poncho Via, was not the first invader of the US, the War of 1812 saw the English invade the US and burn down the capital.  A bit of trivia for everyone was the Commandants house at 8th and I was the only building not burned down as a sign of respect when 200 or so Marines held at Bladensburg Maryland, after a force of several thousands Militia and Army was routed by a force about 1/6 the size of the US forces. In that war Marines also fought along side Andrew Jackson in the Battle of New Orleans, and who stopped the Highlanders assault on the US lines.  The Marines also served on numerous ships that fought against the English on the high seas and great lakes.

The Corps was only involved in the 1st and 2nd Seminole Wars in Florida.  However as the war moved inland the Marine Corps since its naval connection turned everything over too the army.

In the Civil War the Corps saw limited action when compared to the army, one of the only land actions was at 1st Battle of Bull run, after that they served as Naval infantry and stormed several city defense ports and boarded numerous ships while conducting blockage missions

During the Mexican American War, the Marine Corps formed the troops that stormed the presidential palace of Chapaltepec, in the process lost the Majority of Officers and NCO in the Marine Corps, the legend taught Marines is Officers and NCOs wear blood strips to commemorate this (not really the case it was a fashion item at the time).

The Spanish American War saw Marines involved along with their army brotherian in all the mentioned places.  

So as I said both services have a long battle history, most of the Army's from the large wars, which the Marine Corps also fought in but since we fought less of those, we made up for it by all fighting dirty wars before that term was in vogue.

just because CPL punishment doesnt see the big picture im not going to flame him. ignorance is bliss. im going to choose to deal with facts of the present. show me, i say again, SHOW ME a soldier who qualifies at 500m in BOOTCAMP. show me a soldier in a support MOS that can load, fire, strip, and clean any small arm in US inventory. show me a soldier with extensive hand-to-hand combat training including knife and bayonet fighting. show me a soldier that runs a 3 mile PFT test, does pull-ups and has enough pride and discipline to know you shouldnt wear your cammies to the mall. you see CPL, in the Marine Corps even our admin types, aircraft mechanics, and computer nerds can do all of the above. i've met army rear echelon folk that only requal annually at 25m. they dont have a knife. they have no idea what a MK-19 is and theyve never had any close combat training. but you know what???? they got 3 rows of ribbons and get rank like its free. candy asses

Indeed, hence the adjective [i]successful[/i] - we never caught that rat bastard Villa, so we couldn't kick his butt like we did the British (hopefully your boys will have more luck with Bin Laden)

-snipped motivational history lesson-

Doh! I actually knew that story but forgot when it took place - serves me right for typing on the fly. Incidentally, I was taught that as fact, not legend - but then again Roger's Rangers standing orders are taught as fact, when it is likely (and least worded the way it is) more legend than reality.

Indeed. Is "brotherian" a word? If not, it shoulf be. [:)]


I will admit your song is bettert than ours - we can't even decide on the words!

Some trivia for you - the USMC is proudly referred in the first Stanza of the 2nd ID song.
(we were founded as a joint division)

Second to None!

Adam

I'll put the rest of my 2 cents in here and say that it's 1911's vs H&k's or AR vs AK's etc. No one will ever convince Cpl.(or is it Spec4?) Punishment That man for man and as a whole the USMC is just better and by far more admired by the American people and the world in general. The Marine Corps simply produces a better product. I work with many ex service men. I am a supervisor and the differences are obvious. If a job takes 15 men give me 5 ex Marines and I'll get it done. BTW I've served in both (if you count the Army National Guard as the Army).

Show me a support unit where soldiers can't even qualify at 25m. Show me a unit where NCOs wait until a soldier is pulling guard duty in below zero degree weather to learn he was never issued the proper cold weather gear (and has to find out from a Captain!) Show me a unit where 10% of the females are consistently pregnant, despite us shipping them home as fast as we can when they get that way (this on an unaccompanied tour!) Show me a unit where Mk19s, PVS4s, PVS7Bs, and the like sit in an Arms Rm and are never used, and armorers don't even know HOW to maintain them if they tried to.

OK, you win. [:)]

I got my work cut out for me. Where we focus our energies, though - on fixing, moving, feeding, etc. we do better than anyone else in the world. I truly believe that.

Anyway, I have met a lot of Marines that can't shoot woth a damn, that don't have the foggiest clue how to maintain even an M16 ("don't use breakfree, it will just make it harder to get turned in"). Heck, I've even been shot in the back by a former 0311 while doing buddy rushes in a game of paintball! (He covered me as I bounded forward and took cover - then some time passed because things got harry - then I am about to signal to him that he could bound forward - he sees me move and shoots me! - MY GOD HE HAD FORGOTTEN I WAS THERE!!!!)

I hold no special awe for Marines, but I do respect the fanaticism you guys display, us (regular) Army types do tend to be a bit more cynical. FWIW, 82d Airborne guys tend to act more like Marines in that respect. And our Rangers and Special Forces are an entire different animal. The problem is, that when these guys rotate into the regular Army, they often don't spread the goodness of where they left. They instead tend to just look forward to going back and often have a worse attitude than others - a problem particularly present here in the land of the one year tour. They also have little concept of how to lead soldiers who are apathetic, overweight, etc. (all of their rejects come to us, and we also have the guys that have no desire to go to their type units in the first place).


Adam

AH, the Army vs. Marines debate has reared it's ugly head. This is my .02: The USMC has correctly tried to hold onto a "hardcore" image, not wanting or needing to get touchy feely over the last 10 years. The Army had to, recruitment quotas for the Army are 20 times the Marines and they have to get filled. This day of whiny ass high school kids do not want to sign up for anything "hard". I hated to see this happen to my Army, but it did. On the other hand, the Army always has, in my personal opinion, done it's job without all the chest beating. Army units always kick ass in combat, but don't seem to have to talk about it as much as Marines do. (Not talking shit here, I'm serious). Just like right now in Afghanistan, there are Army units on the ground also (10th Mountain, SF, and don't forget the Ranger's Airborne raid) but they are just doing their thing without all the hoopla(sp?) that the Marines are demanding out of Camp Rhino. This seems to have always been the case throughout history. Are the Marines always looking for future funding justification or enhance their image, or just damn proud of what they do? I don't know, I wasn't a Marine. I do know that they have a hell of a better public relations office than the Army does. I was 3rd ACR in southern Iraq, and I know for a fact we took very few pictures of what happened there. The USMC, on the other hand, did a great job of documenting and photographing everything that they did in Kuwait. I don't want to write a novel, so here's the bottom line score in my humble opinion:

Boot camp:  Marines 35 Army 10.
Dress Uniform: Marines 47 Army 0.
30 year appeal: Army 21 Marines 14
Effectiveness in combat: Tie.

I have every confidence in those Marines over there right now. Could my Army unit do the exact same thing? Of course. What counts is that it gets done and I am proud to see them doing it.

I know lots of former Marines and ex army guys. The Army guys are just like anyone else, they just happened to serve in the Army at some point. The former Marines are all firearms dealers, firearms instructers, etc. They come out with a knowledge of weapons that the Army guys can't match. To say that the Army teaches the profession of arms while the Marines doesn't is crazy, The Marines are much better trained than Army GI's. Sure, the army has there black berets now, so of course their all as good as Rangers, But if I had 100 men to guard something, I would take the Marines any day of the week. Tell me the Army takes marksmanship as seriously as Marines. Does the Army train EVERYONE as a rifleman & send them to infantry training?

As a side not on recruitment, the Marines often have to make do with less that the other services get & they keep their old gear up and running good. They are the masters of marketing themselves, but they have to, to keep the Corps going. Who see's an Army commercial and really wantsa to join the Army? The Marines make the best commercials easy (not that that makes them fight better) My point is that the Marines know how to spend their money & part is on advertising. When recruitment was down all over, at least around here, only the Marines filled their quotas. When someone wants money for college, he joins the Army...tech training, Navy or Air Force. If they want to become warriors, they join the Marines.

I am one of the few that would have to argue here: Army Blues look better than USMC blues, period. I would say our greens are a bit behind in the scoring system (gotta love the belt). I thing the problem is in HOW the uniform is worn. You just see a lot more sloppiness in some soldiers. Heck, the Marines wear the exact same Utilities as the Army, but haver a different hat (cover). I have actually had people comment that the Marine Cover looks better than the Army's - until they saw a sailor with the same one. It's all in how you wear it.
Ironically, we get soldiers now who see the light infantry guys walking around in PCs. Yes, the ol' "soft cap" has replaced the beret as the symbol of our more elite units, at least that is the impression I get from the young soldiers. It has never been the uniform, but how it is worn.

Adam

At SMU law school a few weeks ago, two Marines from the JAG corps. came to give a presentation. About 10 people showed up. One of the things the officers kept repeating was that even as a lawyer, you are a rifleman and Marine officer first and lawyer second. It is unlikely but the officers said that you even being in JAG, if needed, could find yourself in the field leading a platoon.

Right on. That's my old unit. Wish I was 9 years younger.

Deadeye
All Marine Officers attend TBS, 6 month long infantry school, prior to going to their MOS school. There was one lawyer in my TBS Compnay that decided he would rather be an infantry officer than a JAG officer, so he ended up an infantry officer.

 
Sorry, but I don't see whats so spectacular about qualifying at 500m.  The target doesn't even move, and the shooter is in the prone position with sling support.  In reality, your target would not be still as a rock and stand straight up for 10 minutes while you get comfy in your shooting position, and how big is the target anyway?  Is it really a human size or a billboard?  Sorry, but I think the Army qual method is far more practical.  

As far as the PT stuff goes, the Marines have to run 3 miles yes, but they're only 9 minute miles or so.  The Army runs 2 miles but they only have about 15 minutes (or less) just to pass.  And for army infantry AIT, they go not 3 but 5 miles as part of the final PT test.  And in jump school, the runs are at least 3-5 miles a day.  

Never having been there, I'm not sure that they can or can't.  The Army trains on many small arms during basic, whether its madatory they learn to clean/disasemble them I don't know.  Heres another question, so what?  The ones who do get that training (combat arms AIT) are those that will actually use it.  It would be great if they would extend Army BCT to teach everyone these extras, but you have to think about the $$:  Unlike the Marines, the Army has way more than just 2 bases for basic training.  If they extended BCT by even a week for all these bases, the cost of a weeks extra training, food, equipment, and other logistics could be too expensive to justify to congress.  After 8 years of Clinton, the Army doesn't exactly have money to burn.  The Marines advantage is that they're on a smaller scale (and therefore don't need as much $$ to keep going).  

Thats nice, but so what?  How does it make the Marines that much better just because a computer nerd can clean an M60?  Why would it take any computer nerd over 10 minutes to learn that anyway?  

Look at it this way. The Army is huge. It has combat units, it has REMF support units. It even has "elite" combat units within the combat units. The Marine Corps is so small they consider themselves an elite unit. So, why is DVLDOG comparing his "elite" Marine units to ALL Army units? Why not compare "elite with elite". Would anyone argue here that the Ranger Regiment is not as kick ass an infantry unit can possibly be? Those guys take it much further than a MEU-SOC. All are Airborne, many are Sniper, SCUBA, Pathfinder, Air Assault, etc. Is DVL DOG saying Rangers are "candy asses"? This is about comparing apples to apples.
I would not take the 82nd Airborne Divison, compare them to the Air Forces admin people and then call the Air Force guys "candy asses". The Army cooks, clerks, mechanics, etc. are just that. They are NOT infantrymen. The Army has infantrymen, and they know the manual of arms of every small arm, etc.

YEs, it would be nice to see the Army have the espirit de corps of the USMC on this point, but the Army just isn't like that.
My earlier point again. We are a tie on the battlefield and that's where it counts.    

DvlDog,
I agree with you for the most part. For the record, I am a "support person" and can load, fire, strip, clean AND do 20 Level Maintenance on any small arm ( short of mortars) in the US inventory. Yep, I am a Quartermaster who happens to be signed for several hundred automatic weapons, night vision goggles - and yes, I have two MK-19's I'm responsible for. I get up at 0100, 0200, 0300, etc to issue weapons when the rest of the Army is crying because their p#ssy hurts. Infantry guys typically have been off duty for a week while I'm still working 18 hour days and my NCO's have gone home a LONG TIME AGO. Yes, I am going to ETS in a year because I'm sick of the political correctness, women in uniform, and profound lack of common sense within the US Army. F##K the Army. Its not what it used to be - time for my to ETS to a real job where a boss respects someone who breaks their back for a higher purpose. A place where promotions aren't based on sexual favors from lower-enlisted females. Did I say that out loud?

On history, I don't think any branch can claim to be "the best". History isn't necessarily bragging rights - the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines have all gotten their #ss kicked a number of times when they shouldn't have - mainly from political decisions or high level brass. I have a great deal of respect for Spec. Ops. - and thats it....I'm not one - for the record. All the fantasy images of glory about the military are largely day dreams.      

I think we all know the truth....But one thing I do like to see is that some of yall Army dogs do have a little pride ....As for us Jarheads,we hold ower heads high,and if you trided to talk this  army- Marine stuff to ower face  it wouldn't take long to find out who was the better fightting man was.I'v worked with and have lots of friends that was in the army..I have never had one that thinks the army was better trained or anything ,than the Marines,They know the truth....so do yall


SEMPER-FI
2nd Tanks 2nd mar.div.
1981 to 1985