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Posted: 7/17/2008 6:01:16 PM EDT
StarTribune.com
www.startribune.com/local/25472764.html?location_refer=Homepage:highlightModules:1
Charges: 8 took turns stomping dad at Valleyfair

By JIM ADAMS, Star Tribune

July 15, 2008

Eight males took turns stomping and kicking the head of a father who had yelled at one of them minutes earlier for hitting his daughter's buttocks at Valleyfair, according to assault charges filed in Scott County District Court.

The attack happened about midnight on July 4 after the father confronted two men who touched his 12-year-old daughter. The 41-year-old father's wife heard one of the men use his cell phone to say "he needed his boys over here," the charges said. The wife said a minute later several men arrived and assaulted her husband inside the exit of the amusement park, despite efforts by her and several female relatives to help him. He was knocked unconscious.

Fair security couldn't control the group but helped Shakopee police arrest seven of them. The eighth fled. Six men and a 14-year-old boy were jailed and charged July 8 with third-degree assault.

The eighth person hasn't been found, said Shakopee Capt. Jeff Tate. He said the victim asked that his name not be released because he fears retaliation from his attackers who have been released after posting bail. He said the group, one of whom slapped the 12-year-old girl on her butt, didn't know the victim's family.

"This type of violence cannot be accepted in our community," County Attorney Patrick Ciliberto said Tuesday. "We had a family at the fair enjoying the holiday. Behavior like this is personal to our community."

Ciliberto said Valleyfair has had "no assault of this magnitude" since he took office in 2002. He said the father was taken to Ridges Hospital in Burnsville for a fractured eye socket bone and other injuries. His office was told Monday that doctors were waiting for the man's swelling to subside before checking for permanent injuries which could justify more serious charges.

Police are still investigating, and when their final reports are received Ciliberto said he will decide if criminal sexual conduct charges are warranted.

The assault "was an isolated incident. This has not happened before," said Valleyfair spokeswoman Rachel Onken. "We are a very safe park." She said 22 security guards were on duty that night, when the fair closed at midnight.

A park release added: "We will continue to do whatever is necessary to make it as safe as possible for our guests and employees."

Tate said Valleyfair security does a good job and this is the only felony assault this year. He said a domestic assault occurred in the parking lot in May and two juveniles were charged with disorderly conduct and misdemeanor assault in a June fight.

"We have a skirmish once in a while," he said. "We usually don't see anything escalate like this."

Tate said the eight-member group had no known gang ties. One of the group, Darris D. Evans, allegedly punched a woman as the group left the unconscious father. Evans, 20, of Brooklyn Park, is charged with a misdemeanor assault for that offense, Tate said.

Besides Darris Evans, five other men and an unnamed juvenile were charged with third-degree felony assault. The five are Derry D. Evans, 19, Minneapolis; Devondre Evans-Lewis, 18, of Columbia Heights; Terry L. Arnold, 22, Brooklyn Park; Andrew D. Shannon, 19, of Minneapolis, and Anthony C. Gildersleeve, 20, Edina.

Bail was set at $40,000 to $60,000 each and all have posted bail bonds, officials said..

Jim Adams • 612-673-7658

© 2008 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.


The assholes.






StarTribune.com
Dad who shielded daughter in attack at Valleyfair recovering, wife says

By JIM ADAMS, Star Tribune

July 16, 2008

A woman whose husband was severely beaten trying to protect his daughter from being molested as the family left Valleyfair said Tuesday they remain traumatized and are still healing from bruises and injuries.

Eight young men are accused of taking turns stomping on and kicking the head of the 41-year-old man, who was knocked unconscious as his wife and three daughters tried to help him. Prosecutors say more serious charges could be brought against the men if the man's injuries are permanent.

"He is hanging in there," said his wife, who asked that the family not be identified out of fear for their safety. She didn't recognize their attackers: "I never seen them a day before in my life."

Shakopee police said serious felony assaults are unusual at the amusement park, which normally has a handful of misdemeanor assaults each summer. The park said Tuesday that 22 security guards were on duty the evening of the assault, July 4, when the fair closed at midnight, and that safety is a priority.

Police arrested seven of the suspects in the Valleyfair parking lot that night and the eighth escaped. Police did not have a good description of that suspect but would like help finding him.

Six men and a 14-year-old boy were charged July 8 with third-degree felony assault. More serious charges, and possibly a sex assault charge, may be filed after police finish their investigation, Scott County Attorney Patrick Ciliberto said Tuesday.

"This type of violence cannot be accepted in our community," he said. "We had a family at the fair enjoying the holiday. Behavior like this is personal to our community."

Ciliberto said Valleyfair has had "no assault of this magnitude" since he took office in 2002. He said the father was taken to Ridges Hospital in Burnsville for a fractured eye socket bone and other injuries. His office was told Monday that doctors were waiting for the man's swelling to subside before checking for permanent injuries, which could justify more serious charges.

The couple was nearing the exit gate with their three daughters at about midnight on July 4, when two young men approached and slapped the youngest girl, about 12, on her buttocks. Her father yelled at the men, one of whom pulled out a cell phone and called for others to join in on the assault.

The wife said she and her daughters tried to protect her husband, and are still recovering from being punched. Her husband has been home from the hospital for a week .

She said she couldn't say more for fear of hurting the prosecution's case.

The assault "was an isolated incident. This has not happened before," said Valleyfair spokeswoman Rachel Onken. "We are a very safe park." She said the guards handled the incident as they were trained and no immediate security changes are planned.

Shakopee Police Capt. Jeff Tate said Valleyfair has "a skirmish once in a while. We usually don't see anything escalate like this." He said park security officers do a good job and that this is the only felony assault this year. He said a domestic assault occurred in the Valleyfair parking lot in May and two juveniles were charged in June with disorderly conduct and misdemeanor assault.

One of the suspects, Darris D. Evans, allegedly punched a man in the face as the group left the unconscious father. Evans, 20, of Brooklyn Park, is charged with a misdemeanor assault for that offense, Tate said.

Besides Evans, five other men and an unnamed juvenile were charged with third-degree felony assault. The five are Derry D. Evans, 19, Minneapolis; Devondre Evans-Lewis, 18, of Columbia Heights; Terry L. Arnold, 22, Brooklyn Park; Andrew D. Shannon, 19, of Minneapolis, and Anthony C. Gildersleeve, 20, Edina.

Bail was set at $40,000 to $60,000 each and all the suspects posted bail bonds, a jail official said.

A check of state records show that two of the suspects have prior felony charges. Arnold and Evans-Lewis were arrested in an Eagan prostitution sting and charged in April with promoting prostitution in Dakota County. Arnold pleaded guilty in May. Arnold also was convicted of two misdemeanor assaults in 2005 and 2006.

Gildersleeve was convicted in March 2008 of carrying a pistol without a permit in a public place, a misdemeanor. Derry Evans was convicted of escaping from custody in January 2008. He was also convicted in May 2008 of disorderly conduct, a gross misdemeanor.

Staff writer Abby Simons contributed to this report. Jim Adams • 612-673-7658

© 2008 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.

Locked thread
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:03:28 PM EDT
[#1]

Quoted:
Please keep the conduct code in mind while posting on AR15.com

Posting comments which are racially derogatory are a violation of the posted rules and are not tolerated. Failure to follow the conduct guidelines or heed the warnings offered will result in the suspension of your user account.

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:04:56 PM EDT
[#2]
I just hope the poor guy recovers from his injuries and that these thugs get sent to long prison sentences.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:05:20 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Please keep the conduct code in mind while posting on AR15.com

Posting comments which are racially derogatory are a violation of the posted rules and are not tolerated. Failure to follow the conduct guidelines or heed the warnings offered will result in the suspension of your user account.



Yet the pics you posted will just be fuel for the fire you wish will not burn.

Come on...regardless of all the racist nonsense, it was a horrible thing to happen.  I could just as easily see the pot smoking Eminem wannabe's that live across the street from me doing the same thing.  Trash is trash is trash.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:05:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Wow this really makes me sick all the way around. I think the worst part of the whole story is that you know there were other people around who just watched and did nothing.

If that were to happen in front of me I would have dove right in and then at least those dickless cowards would have two asses to kick. Fucking disgusting.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:07:44 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
Wow this really makes me sick all the way around. I think the worst part of the whole story is that you know there were other people around who just watched and did nothing.

If that were to happen in front of me I would have dove right in and then at least those dickless cowards would have two asses to kick. Fucking disgusting.


Nobody will stand up and help anymore. I'm 19 and I bet 1/100 people my age will actually do anything; The rest will just turn their ipod up louder and ignore it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:10:18 PM EDT
[#6]
No known gang ties my ass.  8 people who commit felonies together IS BY DEFINITION a criminal street gang.  I hope those dirtbags get sent up for 10 years each.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:11:00 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow this really makes me sick all the way around. I think the worst part of the whole story is that you know there were other people around who just watched and did nothing.

If that were to happen in front of me I would have dove right in and then at least those dickless cowards would have two asses to kick. Fucking disgusting.


Nobody will stand up and help anymore. I'm 19 and I bet 1/100 people my age will actually do anything; The rest will just turn their ipod up louder and ignore it.


Correct that most people are too afraid to get involved. I don't think it has anything to do with age though.

Remember that video of the guy who got run over by the car and was left in the street unattended by bystanders?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:12:05 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
Wow this really makes me sick all the way around. I think the worst part of the whole story is that you know there were other people around who just watched and did nothing.

If that were to happen in front of me I would have dove right in and then at least those dickless cowards would have two asses to kick. Fucking disgusting.


Amen brother - you have balls!
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:12:28 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow this really makes me sick all the way around. I think the worst part of the whole story is that you know there were other people around who just watched and did nothing.

If that were to happen in front of me I would have dove right in and then at least those dickless cowards would have two asses to kick. Fucking disgusting.


Nobody will stand up and help anymore. I'm 19 and I bet 1/100 people my age will actually do anything; The rest will just turn their ipod up louder and ignore it.


Proof of that is the fuckstain illegal immigrant that beat his 2 year old son to death in the middle of the street as people just stood around and watched.  Try that around me...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:12:29 PM EDT
[#10]
The hell is the reason for posting this again?  14 pages didn't give everyone enough space to make their point?

IBTL
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:12:33 PM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow this really makes me sick all the way around. I think the worst part of the whole story is that you know there were other people around who just watched and did nothing.

If that were to happen in front of me I would have dove right in and then at least those dickless cowards would have two asses to kick. Fucking disgusting.


Nobody will stand up and help anymore. I'm 19 and I bet 1/100 people my age will actually do anything; The rest will just turn their ipod up louder and ignore it.


Pussies.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:13:45 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
No known gang ties my ass.  8 people who commit felonies together IS BY DEFINITION a criminal street gang.  I hope those dirtbags get sent up for 10 years each.


Well you know they didn't walk out of Honors English and assault someone.  Once a punk, always a punk.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:16:03 PM EDT
[#13]
A former worker came out today on our conservative radio station today and said that this is actually the norm at Valley Fair. I for one won't be going back to that place. I usually go a few times a year!!!!! No Gun, No Go!!!!





-----------------134thSIGNAL
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:16:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:17:13 PM EDT
[#15]
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:18:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:19:11 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
Nobody will stand up and help anymore. I'm 19 and I bet 1/100 people my age will actually do anything; The rest will just turn their ipod up louder and ignore it.


the problem with getting involved is that unless you know 100% what the situation is, you are setting yourself up to get hurt... in this case that was NOT the situation but consider the following...

example,
my friend and i are outside of bar waiting for the rest of our friends to leave... some guys outside the club next door are acting like assholes... dude slaps a girl in the face, i make a comment, another girl gets hit, and then the "tough guys" turn their attention to us... game on... ends up with me and my friend beating up 4 guys... and as the club empties.. a bunch of jackasses start getting involved yelling at us because we were "winning" the fight... no clue that we were minding our own business and these dudes slapped a girl in the face, attacked us, and deserved to be bleeding from their faces and on top of it the girls were telling us to leave their "boyfriends" alone...

i've seen a neo-nazi at a concert get JUMPED by 20 dudes for walking around with a swastika tattoo on his chest and acting like a moron... pushing around younger kids and girls... when a mixed bunch of bouncers and other men had enough... this dude got an ass kicking he wouldn't forget for a while... what would you have done if you walked up on this and saw this one poor guy getting jumped? you'd put yourself at risk for a scumbag nazi bully who deserved it?

moral of the story: you get involved, you better know what the fuck you're jumping into. especially with the majority of us are CCW holders... you jump in a situation like the OP posted, you have the potential to escalate to deadly force... and unless you are damn sure what is happening and why it happened... that is not worth it.

all that being said, if i saw a dad defending his daughter get jumped by a bunch of fucking lowlife jerk offs, i'd get involved. PA allows for defense of a third party with the same caveats as if it were my own life... so serious injury or death is G2G for deadly force...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:19:17 PM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
The hell is the reason for posting this again?  14 pages didn't give everyone enough space to make their point?

IBTL



To follow the story it sure won't get any national press...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:20:09 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?



I would kill all eight of those fuck stains. It would be legal in Florida to stand my ground if attacked or to help someone else being attacked.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:21:42 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?


I'd pull my gun, order them to stop and shoot anyone that even flinched towards me...
...but I'm also a cop and 8 people beating a man to death is grounds for deadly force.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:26:03 PM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:


Nobody will stand up and help anymore. I'm 19 and I bet 1/100 people my age will actually do anything; The rest will just turn their ipod up louder and ignore it.

Or film it on their cell phones
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:28:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Punks.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:31:17 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm sure those 8 are just victims of society. They should have them on CNN's Black in America special. [/sarcasm]

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:31:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Why did I know their skin color before seeing pics?  Does that make me racist or am I just seeing some sort of pattern?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:35:36 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
Why did I know their skin color before seeing pics?  Does that make me racist or am I just seeing some sort of pattern?


The last time i saw 8 white people stomping the shit out of anything was at a winery.  Most white people think they're means of offense and defense are lawyers and the police.

I'm all for the return of a fair 1 on 1 punchfest to solve problems however litigation rules that out in todays society for most people.  this was obviously not fair, but if the asshole and teh father had duked it out in the street everyone would be saying the father was wrong and shoulda called the cops.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:54:09 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?


I'd pull my gun, order them to stop and shoot anyone that even flinched towards me...
...but I'm also a cop and 8 people beating a man to death is grounds for deadly force.


I am just a shit stained citizen and I am pretty sure it is the same grounds for me.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:54:59 PM EDT
[#27]
I got a little carried away with the non-pc remarks in the last thread so have to avoid this sort of thread from now on.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:59:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Another reminder of why anyone that doesn't carry a gun everytime they leave their house is irresponsible.

The father was irresponsible and negligent in his duties to protect his family and himself and now its up to society to assume that role for him.  These guys will go (back?) to prison for a couple of years, get out, recycle, and do it all over again when they should be laying on stainless steel slabs downtown.

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:05:47 PM EDT
[#29]
So the one thread gets locked, as well as some members accounts,
and you start up another one.
What kind of reasoning can be gleaned from this thread that wasn't offered in the other?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:09:14 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
Why did I know their skin color before seeing pics?  Does that make me racist or am I just seeing some sort of pattern?


Its OK I came to the same conclusion myself.

Im not racist Im just sick of shitbags
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:30:09 PM EDT
[#31]
The question this brings up is "What can we do about it?"  We being shooters, Americans, ARFCOMMERS, etc.  

We can sit here and curse these bastards all day long and get nothing accomplished.  If we speak up or point out the obvious we get in trouble and called racist, and if we end up plugging one we get in inevitable "My baby din't do nuthin'".

I would like to say that we could try and be more involved in our communities, but it seems that certain segments of our society are fairly far removed from our own.  

Education would be a thought, but then again, well, I am sure the guys that taught the 9/11 hijackers are not too proud of themselves.

We cannot force change on a culture, but we can show and demonstrate that bucking the trend will lead to prosperity.  My family sees that I am doing better than they are because I don't drink myself into oblivion, some have disowned me, others have followed my lead and they are doing better.  My little sister just closed on her first house, she is just 25.  She was not on this track not long ago.

If we are going to get the blame for this particular culture being the way they are, then WTF, let's try and change it, just a little when we can.  Just like when we convert a anti, or take a co-worker shooting for the first time.  Don't go out of your way and don't put yourself in danger.  Be supportive of other minority shooters you know without being patronizing and go from there.

I bet Tiger Woods has done more for Blacks that Jesse Jackassson ever dreamed of.  

Maybe I am just full of shit too, who knows, but I am tired of taking the blame.  Of course there are like hardly any black folk around here and the ones that are are pretty much Alaskan.


Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:42:53 PM EDT
[#32]


If not for yourself, then for the good of - perhaps naive - others.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:57:31 PM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:
The question this brings up is "What can we do about it?"  



At the end of the day... nothing.  You can't change the world.  What you can change, however, are your chances for survival should something like this happen to you.  Carry a gun at all times and ensure that you have several reloads.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:22:12 PM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:
www.lifelibertyetc.com/images/Products/d098d383-1d50-4583-b951-c5b347966a97.jpg

If not for yourself, then for the good of - perhaps naive - others.



QFT
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:23:33 PM EDT
[#35]
Hopefully they are made examples of. There is no place in free society for this behavior.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:23:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Those guys look like model citizens.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:28:52 PM EDT
[#37]
I wasn't aware the other thread was locked

That being said, that guy should have been packing, one of them getting brains splattered everywhere im pretty sure would keep their "homeboys" from jumping in, after all their thugs, not rambo.

For those of you about to say they dont allow guns in the park blah blah blah, see my sig line

I pray for the father....
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:29:28 PM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?


I'd pull my gun, order them to stop and shoot anyone that even flinched towards me...



...but I'm also a cop and 8 people beating a man to death is grounds for deadly force.



I'm not a cop and it's grounds here too.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:30:43 PM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The hell is the reason for posting this again?  14 pages didn't give everyone enough space to make their point?

IBTL



To follow the story it sure won't get any national press...


1+

This is the first I've heard of it.

Those SOBs that did it need a BIG HAMMER upside the head.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:20:27 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
The hell is the reason for posting this again?  14 pages didn't give everyone enough space to make their point?

IBTL [://



To follow the story it sure won't get any national press...


1+

This is the first I've heard of it.

Those SOBs that did it need a BIG HAMMER upside the head.


These kind of stories NEVER ever get national press, they get buried. But, turn the races around to eight white on one black and it gets non-stop 24/7 coverage on all networks!!!

It is for that reason if for non other that we at the very least cover it here it at all possible; truth be told, I'd never even hear of all the disgusting animalistic crimes that have happened over the years if it were not for this board.

And as far as I'm concerned that is a good thing and I'm thankful for it. Now I just hope I'm in before the inevitable lock. The 'PC' is out of control on this board anymore...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:00:13 PM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:
These kind of stories NEVER ever get national press, they get buried. But, turn the races around to eight white on one black and it gets non-stop 24/7 coverage on all networks!!!

It is for that reason if for non other that we at the very least cover it here it at all possible; truth be told, I'd never even hear of all the disgusting animalistic crimes that have happened over the years if it were not for this board.

And as far as I'm concerned that is a good thing and I'm thankful for it. Now I just hope I'm in before the inevitable lock. The 'PC' is out of control on this board anymore...


I agree the press sensationalizes violence or perceived injustice against blacks by whites.

I might have missed it, but i didn't see the victim's clearly ID'd as white. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. i admit, the likelihood is high they are white. I wouldn't discount the victim being black. My point is some of "these" guys have no respect for anybody regardless of race.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:04:27 PM EDT
[#42]
That is a damn shame...I don't care what race the guys are---it just damn well sucks...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:16:09 PM EDT
[#43]
They look good in green, but would look better in pine.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:37:42 PM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
These kind of stories NEVER ever get national press, they get buried. But, turn the races around to eight white on one black and it gets non-stop 24/7 coverage on all networks!!!

It is for that reason if for non other that we at the very least cover it here it at all possible; truth be told, I'd never even hear of all the disgusting animalistic crimes that have happened over the years if it were not for this board.

And as far as I'm concerned that is a good thing and I'm thankful for it. Now I just hope I'm in before the inevitable lock. The 'PC' is out of control on this board anymore...


I agree the press sensationalizes violence or perceived injustice against blacks by whites.

I might have missed it, but i didn't see the victim's clearly ID'd as white. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. i admit, the likelihood is high they are white. I wouldn't discount the victim being black. My point is some of "these" guys have no respect for anybody regardless of race.



blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&um=1&q=Valleyfair&btnG=Search+Blogs


Nothing definitive yet but the more eyes the better...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:23:58 PM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?


I'd pull my gun, order them to stop and shoot anyone that even flinched towards me...
...but I'm also a cop and 8 people beating a man to death is grounds for deadly force.


I am just a shit stained citizen and I am pretty sure it is the same grounds for me.


I meant i'd be expected to give them a warning before they get whats coming.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:43:40 PM EDT
[#46]
There is another forum... hell, there are several forums on which this topic may be discussed freely.

But not here.  This is a site dedicated to firearms enthusiasts, and a certain amount of business is transacted here.  To continue to discuss this issue here is probably stepping over the line.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:45:46 PM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:
So the one thread gets locked, as well as some members accounts,
and you start up another one.
What kind of reasoning can be gleaned from this thread that wasn't offered in the other?


Well it's minus a few folks that can't carry on intelligent conversations within the limits set by the site owners.  So we might see some slightly improved postulating.

Maybe some folks will learn manners if nothing else.

Trying to post to impress the lowest common denominator is welcome on a variety of sites, we should try to keep it above that level here.  If you don't have enough self control to do that, oh well, live and learn.

As far as what can be gleaned, possibly a discussion of what his real options and legal situation was under the laws in place, not a bunch of chest beating and buffoonish bloviating on what what the internet hero would do.  

maybe the addresses of legislators that have voted against CCW, and and a request to send them a reasoned and adult correspondence, not some obscenity laced tirade which would only serve to reinforce the negative stereotypes of the neanderthalic hoplophile.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:54:57 PM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?


I'd pull my gun, order them to stop and shoot anyone that even flinched towards me...
...but I'm also a cop and 8 people beating a man to death is grounds for deadly force.


I am just a shit stained citizen and I am pretty sure it is the same grounds for me.


I meant i'd be expected to give them a warning before they get whats coming.


Why?





As in why give a warning? if it was a good shoot, then a warning is superfluous for the initial bad actors, and their fate is, or should be sufficient warning for the others.  What kind of warning would you give?  how long would you wait to see if the aggressor heeded the warning and stopped.  Enough time for the victim to absorb the fatal stomp or kick?

There are times when warnings are appropriate and should be given, and times when not. Oncetha blows have started the time for warning is over.  If they are still approaching and no blows have happened, then MAYBE a warning is appropriate.

What are the state laws regarding CCW where he was?  Did he try to obtain a CCW? What are the real laws in place and how was he hampered, NOT some internet platitudes, reality.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:59:02 PM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
moral of the story: you get involved, you better know what the fuck you're jumping into. especially with the majority of us are CCW holders... you jump in a situation like the OP posted, you have the potential to escalate to deadly force... and unless you are damn sure what is happening and why it happened... that is not worth it.


There's alot of truth to that. You can open yourself up to huge issues if you're wrong.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 12:02:24 AM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:

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So if you a carrying a gun and this happens in your home state, how would you handle it?

If you were being attacked?

If you witnessed it?


I'd pull my gun, order them to stop and shoot anyone that even flinched towards me...
...but I'm also a cop and 8 people beating a man to death is grounds for deadly force.


I am just a shit stained citizen and I am pretty sure it is the same grounds for me.


I meant i'd be expected to give them a warning before they get whats coming.


Why?





As in why give a warning? if it was a good shoot, then a warning is superfluous for the initial bad actors, and their fate is, or should be sufficient warning for the others.  What kind of warning would you give?  how long would you wait to see if the aggressor heeded the warning and stopped.  Enough time for the victim to absorb the fatal stomp or kick?

There are times when warnings are appropriate and should be given, and times when not. Oncetha blows have started the time for warning is over.  If they are still approaching and no blows have happened, then MAYBE a warning is appropriate.

What are the state laws regarding CCW where he was?  Did he try to obtain a CCW? What are the real laws in place and how was he hampered, NOT some internet platitudes, reality.


To be honest, i have no idea if i'd warn, how long i'd warn, because i'm not in that situation, and anyone who says they'd do A, say B, and follow C exactly is a liar, a braggart or a fool.

I say i'd warn because it is expected of LE to warn IF possible prior to the use of deadly force.  If not possible then it's not going to be given.  It's a good shoot either way though.
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