First off, I have NOT seen the movie, so I will only speak in generalities.

Let me start by saying MANY of my Christian brethren give witchcraft (aka Satanism) WAY too much credit as far as its viability in the world marketplace of ideas.

Next, let me address the worship of Satan.

Consider Galatians 4:8 -

"However, when you knew not God, you performed service to those who by nature are NOT gods."

Stated another way, there is only ONE God - his name is Jehovah. Creating something else to worship does NOT make them a god, just something you put too much credit in. Kinda like thinking riches will meet all your needs in life. They won't. Neither will Satanism. ONLY God can meet all your needs - because He created you WITH those needs that He intended to fill.


Next, let me specifically adress witchcraft.

Consider Galatians 5: 19 - 20

"Now the woks of the flesh are easily seen, namely adultery, fornnication, drunkenness, heresies, IDOLATRY, WITCHCRAFT....."

So, witchcraft is NOTHING more than another way for our (mine included) sinful nature to partake in something that makes us FEEL good, outside of the Biblically mandated ways. Witchcraft is the same "animal" as drunkenness.

Now, as it applies to Harry Potter...

IF Harry Potter does display witchcraft (all the trailers seem to indicate it does) then its just displaying another sin of the flesh, and NOT something that can rival Christianity or compete with God.

My concerns are twofold:

1. I'm NOT worried about the witchcraft per se. My concern is more the willingness to portray sins (including witchcraft) as the norm, as acceptable and tolerable. Are we a far away from the "tolerance police" establishing a "be kind to witches day?"

2. The slavish mentality to go see the latest crap Hollywood has to spew. GO READ A BOOK. And not the Harry Potter book, either. [:D] or better yet, go engage your self in REAL LIFE - like riding a mountain bike thru the countryside, or helping out at a soup kitchen.

I know a lot of really rational people who have gone ape over this movie.They have stated in no way will they let there children see it.Yet they will let them watch any cartoon made.
    I give my kids credit on knowing what is right,wrong good or evil,ect.If they need help deciding,thats what I'm there for.I look at this as nothing but entertainment,but would have to see it before leting my kids watch it.
  I believe the ideas and faith we teach are kids are far more important.

Do people not realize that this is a cartoon?

When I was little I was watching talking dogs and cats and mice and loved watching some stupid coyote get killed over and over and over (think this has something to do with my love of coyote hunting? [rolleyes]) I've watched people cast spells and other people turn into frogs while some other guy ate spinich and turned into superman. Speaking of superman, how does he fly anyways? Is it magic or does he cast a spell? Maybe we should do away with him too.

I bet half of these people that are complaining are the same ones that grew up playing Dungeons & Dragons.

Michael

I loved that coyote cartoon. Too violent these days I guess.  Did the D&D thing.

Now I'll have to read the Harry Potter books.

How does witchcraft qualify as a sin "of the flesh"?  It doesn't involve direct bodily gratification the way gluttony or sloth do.  

Just wondering...

Great movie, recommended to all.

THe only thing they could have done better would be make it a 4 or 5 hour movie (My kid would have sat through it happily).

Otherwise it was a fine romp.

EXCELLENT question.

First off, its a sin of the flesh SIMPLY because God says it is. That explanation is sufficient to satisfy those of us who have ALREADY placed faith in Christ.

But, for others....

In our flesh, we have the desire to feel good about ourselves OUTSIDE of the Biblically mandates way- i.e. WITHOUT God.

Witchcraft appeals to our desire to gain personal significance WITHOUT God by giving us POWER. Power to do things that the ordinary person cannot do. Power to say that "I don't NEED God. I am sufficient in myself.

Just this morning I saw a post by Molitas (posted in jest, I assumed) that had a pic that said "Hail lucifer, all hail [size=4]SELF."[/size=4] That pretty much sums it up. I'm gonan see if i can find it again, and document the source.

Beyond that, both in Bible times and current day practice, witchcraft is CLOSELY tied with sexual promiscuity.

MY god GARAND MAN!!

Now you have stepped into the abyss!!!

Its a good book

A great flick.


A fun time for the WHOLE family!

There is NO such thing as which craft.  People do not really fly around on broom sticks nor for that matter do they walk on water.

The Harry Potter books have done what no other book has done in YEARS.  It has gotten Nintendoized kids READING!!  They are excited by the book and guess what?  They use it as a stepping stone to READ more books!!  Heck they might learn to read to such a degree as to be able to read other works of fiction.  Mine have gone on to read the Lord of the rings. Others might choose the bible........

Which all ignores the fact that this movie is not about REAL witches.  It's a fantasy about fantasy sorcery which doesn't exist in the real world.  

Do you share that same opinion with the people who practice witchcraft, or do you reserve it for people who claim to be Christians?

My favorite author, Gene Wolfe, is a devout Catholic who converted to Catholicism relatively late in life.  He knows the Catholic faith better than most Cathloics, and he is a brilliant man.  He stated in an essay I read some years ago that there is no reason to believe that the various pagan gods don't exist.  Even scripturally, there is nothing about them not existing.  Wolfe says that although they may exist and be (relatively) powerful, they are not deserving of worship.  I know that this is only peripherally related to what you are discussing here, but I thought I 'd throw it in.
I don't worry to much about witchcraft and its practitioners.  Anybody with even low-normal intelligence should be able to realize pretty quickly that magic doesn't work and the occult is doo-doo.

Both actually.  Hell I even met a guy once who said that he worshipped THOR and he was serious about it.  Yes I told him that there really was no THOR.  There are no Zombies, No animated mummies, No talking black cats, No turning people into toads, for that matter No feeding people off a few fish and loaves of bread ( that pesky conservation of mass law of physics) No re-animation of the dead.  See I have the same rules for EVERYONE!!! I play fair and square on all sides.

I've personally never read the books and don't plan on watching the movie cause they seem to be infectious. I've know several adults who had no interest until they started reading one and then they get all "Potterized" and started raving about how great they were and they couldn't get the next one fast enough. It was kind of spooky.

It kind of reminded me of that movie when Sam Neil in it where people would read that book and go insane. All these people are reading one of these books and getting all goofy. It really screws them up. You'd think that they just discovered sex or something. Pretty scary...

Harry Potter = bad

You have been warned. Now run away before you get "Potterized"
[%|]

I'd even be willing to say the same for the "Left Behind" series. (aka Christian fiction) Its a stinkin' fad. I HATE fads.  [:D]

My wife USED to be "infected" but she, on her own, saw the light.

"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives."
--Robert A. Heinlein

Not to take sides here, but...

IT'S ONLY A MOVIE!

Geez.

maybe we ought to read the book or see the movie before we go judging. planks and motes, anyone? i think someone needs to go to the range more often.

OK, I'll bite....

The Bible tells me not to look at pornography, as it leads to lust, which the Bible calls "committing adultery in your heart." By defintion, this put s NUMEROUS mags and books off limits.

Now, do I listen to God, or to Mr. Heinlein, no matter "how holy Mr. Heinlein's Motives?"
[:D]

I understand why that would make it a sin, but that still doesn't have much to do with flesh.  After all, isn't Satan's original sin supposed to have been something along the same lines?  And as an angel, he wouldn't have had any flesh at all.  Conversely, if you were to take a bunch of people and remove their ability to think beyond the animal level (a few kegs of beer might do the trick [;)] ), they might indulge in fornication, murder, and other carnal sins, but I doubt that they would start practicing witchcraft.

What sort of sins fall into the "not of the flesh" category?  

OK, you have hit upon something I have done a poor job explaining.

Biblically, the "flesh" refers to NOT just meat and bone, but ANYTHING that is outside of obedience to God.

So I guess you could say that NO sin is NOT a sin of the flesh.

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous [sàngkt mnee ss ] adjective
holier-than-thou:  making an exaggerated show of holiness or moral superiority (disapproving)


[Early 17th century. Formed from Latin sanctimonia "sanctity," from sanctus "sacred" (see saint ).]

Not to make the assumption you are referring to me, but  I'm curious WHAT EXACTLY you consider sanctimonious -

Would it be where I referred to my OWN sin nature, or where I said I did a poor job of explaining something???

Or do you consider God to be "sanctimonius?"  After all, mosltly what I did was to quote Him. Hmmmm....imagine God "making an exaggerated show of holiness or moral superiority "


He kinda ""wrote the book" on the subject of holiness.
[:D]

Okay everyone.  Take a deep cleansing breath and repeat after me:

"It's fiction.  It's only a movie"


C'mon guys.  Two of the greatest authors of fantasy novels were commited Christians (J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.)  Didn't seem to affect their walk with God any.

Yes,, I do. as a matter of fact it make two "witches" very uncomfortable. By the same token... I hold religion with the same reguard.

If you really want to read a good article on the Harry Potter issue, check this out.  It's a very informative Christian response entitled  [blue]"Witchcraft, Sorcery, and "Harry Potter."[/blue]


[url]http://www.gtaea.org/harrypotter.htm[/url]


[size=1]DISCLAIMER: I am not a member of the church in this link, but I agree %100 with what he's saying.[/size=1]

Boys, boys, this whole issue started in another thread by [b]Confusion[/b] stating that he was not going to take his children to see the Harry Potter movie. Simple act of parental discretion.

Is there anyone on this Board who would deny Confusion the right, as a parent, to choose the type of reading material that his children has access to, or the movies that they view?

Anyone?

I thought not! Whew! That was close.

And whether Confusion has to actually read or view the Harry Potter material [b]before[/b] he makes his decision, is a question that also is entirely up to him as a parent.

If he wishes to listen to the advice or counsel of someone else, be it Rev. Falwell (he seems to be the Devil to some folks), or Roger Ebert, the movie critic, isn't that totally up to him, as well? As a parent? C'mon, you know it is!

I don't have to pick up every issue of Hustler magazine to see if it's still a skin magazine, do I? Can't I rely on what others have told me to believe that it's a skin magazine?

Get sensible you guys, it's called making choices in life, it's not rocket science.

Eric The(AGovernmentThatRequiresYouToReadSomethingWouldBeJustAsDestructiveAsOneThatForbids!)Hun[>]:)]

Ever see the ducumentary "Paradise Lost" part 1 & 2?

That's what irrational fears of witchcraft and satan do for people. Check it out and see where this line of "thinking" geos when people run with it.
[img]www.100megsfree2.com/satan/assets/images/South_Park_satan.gif[/img]

G-MAN
I respect your views I may not agree with them but that's why  we live in this GREAT COUNTRY that we do.As you have quoted out of the bible many times in this and other threads it is just a BOOK just like the HARRY POTTER SERIES. But that is just my opinion .

FWIW -

I do NOT fear witchcraft. Like the Bible says, its akin to drunkenness as far as particular sins go.

And as far as Satan, I don't fear Him either. He gets his BUTT kicked in the end. And in the meantime, I'm protected by the God who will eventually kick his butt.

[:D]

If the shoe fits...  [:)]

feb -

That's cool.

You actually bring up a pretty good point. Those of us who believe the Bible is the VERY Word of God believe it is proven to be so in part because it is the BEST selling book in the history of the world, thus in part proving its "spiritual" nature.

Now, Harry Potter books are ALSO sweeping the world. Which many believe may ALSO be due in part to its "spiritual" (but in this case EVIL spirits) nature.

But ONLY time will tell.

personally, I suspect Harry Potter is largely a fad that will pass in time. Yet the Bible will continue its march thru history.

So, I too respect your views. Question is, "does God respect EITHER of our views?"

Answer: ONLY if they agree with His views.


Peace.

[puke][puke][puke][puke][puke][puke][puke][puke][puke]


[devil]Tyler[devil]

Sorry dude, but witchcraft isn't synonymous with Satanism as you claim above.  This only goes to prove you know nothing about which you speak with regards to anything but your own religion.

But you'll probably ignore me because I've pointed out another BS claim you've made and you don't want to deal with being dead nuts wrong again.  Are you going to claim I'm putting words in your mouth or that I'm making accusations again?  Are you going to claim you didn't really say this?

No, I'm gonna completely ignore you as best I can tell, your intent is NOT to discuss, it is to ARGUE. And I don't feel like shouting today.

since when is popularity a proof of virtue? last time i looked, sin was very popular...

just out of curiosity, do you know this from personal experience, or did someone tell you to think this?

As usual I am in total agreement with Garandman.  You guys spend WAY too much time cutting him down because he stands for something.  What do you stand for???  Either you are for God or against God.  There is no in between.  One day when you find out that garandman is correct in his religious beliefs, you will be sorry.  I pray that you will at the very least take a "better safe than sorry" approach and give Christianity a try.  If you are sincere in your efforts, you will be filled with the Spirit of God and you will finally understand what garandman has been trying to tell you.  Do it now before it's eternally too late!!!

In reference to this Harry Potter crap, here is the best I could come up with on short notice.  There is a lot more evidence out there, and this is just one example.

[url]http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract7.html[/url]

Awaiting His return,

BBURN

Uhhh, NO, I spoecifically said that I believe that Harry Potter is a fad which will pass.



How can you guys miss what I CLEARLY posted??

How can you expect me to take you seriously when you don't even read the entirety of my post???

In fact, the whole gist of that post was to question those who think Harry Potter is some NEW manifestation of evil heretofore unknown.

[rolleyes]

Uhh, I didn't say popularity is a proof of "virtue"

Why should I bother posting at all if you guys are gonna COMPLETELY re-word what I post anyway???? I guess this is what LT meant by "Post without posting." [rolleyes]


Yes, BOTH sin and the Bible are "spiritual" in nature. And YES, both are VERY popular. So, YES, popularity is  PARTLY (go back to my original post, you'll see I used this same word there) proof of the spiritual nature of certain things, including the Bible, and sin.

[rolleyes]

"I never actually WENT to kindergarten, at least until now. And they are FORCING me to be the teacher."

Thanks Garandman for your boldness.  People perish for lack of knowledge.  Witchcraft is witchcraft.  This nation was founded as a Christian nation and those principles have made it great.  If we abandon God, we lose His blessing and will then meet whatever fate Satan has for us.  Sorry, guys, that's the way it is.  When is the last time you saw a positive movie about our forefathers or Christianity?  Wonder why they don't make any of those?? An agenda maybe?

Thank you LTVN68.  That is what I was trying to say above.  Garandman is only sharing the truth as the Creator of our universe wants him too.  Instead of being praised and respected by fellow believers he is being chastised and persecuted by non-believers.  This is exactly what the Bible says will happen to Christians, especially in the end times.  One day soon, everyone will know the truth.  It's those who care enough to seek the truth RIGHT NOW who will triumph in the end.  I hope these unbelievers will turn from their wicked ways before it's too late.

You go Garandman!

BBURN

It is my "calling" in life to be ridiculed and mocked by those who support the Second Amendment, as I do.

[BD]

There is either "with God" or "without God". When you are without God then there is dispair and a sense of emptiness. In your attempts to fill the void you may choose many things. The attempt to fill this void with things other than God results in the presence of Satan and opening the door to his influences.

Although the promoters of majic and witchcraft and sorcery will claim that there is a difference between good and evil magic they are only falling into the stages of rationalization that allows Satan to work his magic on them. Although the whole Harry Potter thing is promoted as "just a book" or "just a movie",,, it, like many other events throughout history, has an encroaching effect on the beliefs and morals of humanity. Everybody can sit back and say, "It's just a little more" or "It doesn't affect me" till they are blue in the face, but it's just another brick in the wall that seperates them from God. That's why god instituted a "zero tollerence" philosophy long ago. He understands far more about how we operate and did this to help save us from the hell of his absence. There is no negotiation or debate. If you believe in God then you follow his rules. When you don't, you try to make it up to him and get back on the right path.

As far as famous Christian authors who wrote fiction... blah blah blah. You can think that it didn't affect them but you don't really know that till you get to heaven and see them there with God. You don't really know how it affected them.

Needless to say, I sin almost as much as anybody else, but at least I'm not stupid enough to try to defend my sins with half-witt rationalizations.

[soapbox]

"edited cause I don't know how to spell"

Since my opinion is no better than anyone else's, I freely offer it here.

I was introduced to the Harry Potter series by my 11 year old daughter.  She read the first book, then begged to read it aloud to my wife.  She continued to do so with the next 3 books, the last one being over 700 pages.  I read all the books, twice. I took the whole family to see the movie this weekend. While far from being an authority, I feel comfortable enough with the material to discuss it intelligently.

The books are fantasy. They describe a boy who's parents died protecting him from a thoroughly evil character.  His parents were "witches" who went to Hogwarts School to learn their craft. Years later Harry, who has been raised by abusive relatives, is "rescued" by friends of his parents, and taken to the same school to learn "wizardry".

The main theme of the book is that there is good and evil in the world, and that we have to confront it on a daily basis.  Other "lessons" are that it's sometimes hard to do the right thing, or a true friend will tell you when you're wrong as well as when you're right.

While many religions have associated witchcraft and Satan, no such connection is made in the books or the movie.  In fact, I do not remember religion ever being discussed.  No prayers are offered, nor is any Supreme Being identified.  This, in and of itself, may be enough to condemn the series to those who feel that their religion defines their daily activity.

In the final analysis, I find no wrong with either the books or the movie. The books are a fast, fun read that keeps you turning the pages, like a good author should.  The movie was fairly true to the first book.  My wife's comment was that, "Too much had been left out. It could have been longer." The movie was already 2-1/2 hours, but I tend to agree.

To those who feel that the series is inherently evil, I can only offer this observation: There's enough real evil in this world.  We don't have to go looking to assign it to a work of fiction.  Do me a favor. Exercise your right to NOT see the movie or read the books.  But, in doing so, I must respecfully ask that since you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on this subject matter, please refrain from comment.  If you've got that much energy and free time, go spend some of it at a shelter for battered women and children.  

I have, and it's a great place to see Satan's work first hand.

Sorry if I have offended anyone. Thanks.

Fatman -

That's a fair assessment, and NOT really offensive at all.

Let me ask a question -

Do you think there is ANY connection at all between witchcraft as it is addressed in the Bible (always in a negative context) and the "dark arts" a s presented in Harry Potter???

Also, what about the issue of a "gateway drug" of sorts, like marijuana is to many other more hardcore drugs. Do you think harry Potter could possibly present "witchcraft / whatever you wanna call it" in a favorable light that would lead people to engage in the types of activities the Bible CLEARLY outlines as wrong???

And do you care??? [BD]



Thanx.

Sure there is a connection. While I cannot quote chapter and verse, I'm sure that somewhere in the Bible, there's a description of something that a character in Harry Potter did.  My feeling is, though, that the overarching theme of Good vs. Evil (and yes, the idea is that it's better to be good [:D]) is a positive message.  Regarding the "gateway drug" issue, if I felt that my kids were so open to irrational suggestion that I thought they'd run from the theater and try to enroll in Hogwarts, then yes, I would not have let them see it.  But, I know my kids, and know that THEY know the difference between real life and entertainment.

If I thought that Harry Potter would "lead people to engage in activities that the bible CLEARLY outlines as wrong", I certainly would counsel my children.  However I don't think that way, based on my statements above.

Garandman, I do not wish to get into a discussion on biblical interpretations.  I'm sure that we could spend the day trading passages that support either of our sides.  I'm simply saying that I prefer to pick my "battles" with my kids and I just don't see a battle here.  Other kids and other parents may, but I don't.

"To those who feel that the series is inherently evil, I can only offer this observation: There's enough real evil in this world. We don't have to go looking to assign it to a work of fiction. Do me a favor. Exercise your right to NOT see the movie or read the books. But, in doing so, I must respecfully ask that since you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on this subject matter, please refrain from comment. If you've got that much energy and free time, go spend some of it at a shelter for battered women and children. " Posted by Fatman



This is the same kind of rationalization that has opened the door for so many things evil that has ever happened, kind of like Eve and the whole apple thing with Adam. Yes, it could always be worse and yes there is much greater evil in the world but at least the greater evil that you refer to is direct and obvious. You have to at least appreciate it for its blatantness. The stuff like Harry Potter is more subtle and therefore even more evil. It is the kind of stuff that sneaks in through the back door of your mind and then infests it like a cancer. It is just the sort of thing that is slowly eroding away at the morals of society. After WWII, there were a lot of things that were socially accepted cause everyone had seen such horrible things in the war. Everyone got desensitized to these little social activities and therefore began to allow them. Every war has brought our country a little more erosion to our ethics and morals, and sometimes under the guise of coming together and accepting things in others that we wouldn't normally. I almost respected what you had to say until you threw out that remark about helping the battered women and children. That was a cheap shot and all too unworthy. I myself have helped some of these women and children. Although it is one of the best/most worthy charities around (in my book) your use of it here is just a cheap shot.

It's a risky path that you choose to follow. Just try to make sure that it is the right one before you contribute in getting others to walk along with you.

We as Christians should express our views. They shouldn't be of one of superiority of self, as self doesn't carry much weight in the kingdom. What Christianity is about is what Jesus has done for us, not what we have done for Him. His sacrifice on the cross and resurrection is what sets us right with God, not our wonderful behavior. We desire to please God as He laid so great a sacrifice on the Cross, that being His Son Jesus. Do we say something about something we see as being wrong? Yes out of love for our brothers, not that we are so much better than others. I know I am not, but I know what Jesus did for me. I do not want to see people get caught in a trap of deception, it hurts to see it. Do you think the addict on the street thinks his first rock of crack or whatever is his or her choice thought it would lead them down the path it did? I think not. Prophets warned people night and day throughout the Bible. And were mocked for their efforts. None the less they warned the people. Jeremiah is a good example of this. People laughed and mocked him , people were destroyed Jeremiah saved.
 "If one chooses to live like hell, they'll get there soon enough." Relayed to me, years ago when I was living wrong. It was a wise man who told me that.
 Witchcraft is as the sin of rebellion. Rebellion says it doesn't need God in ones life.Witchcraft is trying to get power from ones own self. It is a glorification of self.It also leads to spiritual blindness and a hardened heart. You make the choice. Its YOUR life to play with.

I was a die-hard D&D player when all of the born again Christians were spouting the same annoying rhetoric (during the birth of AD&D). Of course I acknowledge your right to your beliefs and lifestyle, I honestly respect it; but I hate it when [b]some[/b] Christians go off on a tangent like this and piss on a good thing.


[devil]Tyler[devil]

retrodog and Cummins_4x4 beat me to it and said it very well.

Witchcraft and satanism may not necessarily be exactly "synonymous", but they always go hand in hand.  The old saying "Garbage in, garbage out" is true so keep the garbage out of your life.  This is especially important with a "Harry Potter" situation were the evil is packaged as a harmless book/movie series yet the evil is real no matter subtly it is delivered.

I am not perfect and have sinned countless times.  I've let evil things in my mind before even though I know I shouldn't.  Please understand that we are just trying to tell you to WATCH OUT.  Remember the wolf in sheeps clothing?  Don't let yourself be fooled!

BBURN

"Evil is packaged as a harmless book/movie series"?  I don't understand.  

If they portray "Evil" as "Bad", and something to be fought, is this not good?  Or is it the "tool" that you object to.  The idea that "magic" is evil, regardless of what it is used for sounds suspiciously like the anti-gunner's argument.

I don't buy it.