Seems to me people read the studies from respected pundits (ie Roberts, FBI, etc...) and misinterpret what they say. Mainly their message is:

Incapacitation is only guaranteed with common handgun rounds when:

1) A direct hit (the permanent wound channel, not necessarily touched by the bullet) to the Central Nervous System such that

  A) the brain is damaged to the point where motor functions are lost
  B) or a direct hit to the spinal cord is achieved such that signals from the brain can no longer reach the arm and or legs in an incapacitating manner.

2) Massive blood loss which physically limits the functioning the brain.

Notice nowhere in the above statements does it say KE plays no role. Without doubt, KE energy can (but is not certain to) incapacitate a person. Take a step back and think about what happens when someone is punched in the torso. There is no hit to the CNS, there is no massive blood loss. But the person punched can be incapacitated. It is purely KE being dumped onto a person's body, causing damage similar to the temporal wound channel from a pistol round. But the damage from the bullet is much worse. Most of the temporary damage and stretch is imparted internally on the organs, not externally on the ribs or skin as with a punch. The KE from an adult male throwing a "full power shot" is about 100 ft-lbs. When people say the 100-200 ft-lbs difference between 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.. doesn't buy you anything, this is simply wrong.

Additionally higher KE results in a larger permanent wound channel. The difference is not much with handgun rounds but neither is the .2" difference in expansion between 9mm and .45 which the naysayers praise.

The naysayers will also retort that "knockdown power" is a myth but this is another confusion of the issues. Knockdown power is a fallacy talking about using the momentum of a bullet to incapacitate a person (which does not hold or else the shooter would be knocked down too by Newton's laws). Knockdown power has nothing to do with the way KE incapacitates.

Bottom line is every day game and humans are being dropped before any massive blood loss occurs by bullets which do not hit the CNS. This is due to the KE being dumped onto the target.  It's real. Does that additional "punch" from more KE guarantee you anything? Of course not.  Sometimes that deer runs 300 yards after getting hit, sometimes it drops like a ton of bricks. With people KE plays a lesser role if you are dealing with a bad guy on drugs. However I would rather have it in my corner than not.

ETA: edited for clarity.

Quoted: None of the factors can be taken in isolation. Consider the extreme - your rifle launches 500 grain bullets at 10 fps.  Shoot me.

You just proved my point. 500 grains at 10fps is only 0.11 ft-lbs. Of course it won't do squat.

Quoted: Take a step back and think about what happens when someone is punched in the torso. There is no hit to the CNS, there is no massive blood loss.

And how much KE is in the punch?  Not much compared to a bullet.  How much KE would and attack with a sharp knife need to incapacitate someone?  Not much.

KE is just the potential to do work.  The work has to accomplish something.

Your body is designed (to a certain extent at least) to be able to absorb some kinetic energy to the outside of the body with little or no damage. Internal kinetic energy does bad things to important parts. You can take a lot harder punch to your skin than your heart with no covering can take.

Incapacitation is only guaranteed  with common handgun rounds when:    1) A direct hit (the permanent wound channel, not necessarily touched by the bullet) to the Central Nervous System such that        A) the brain is damaged to the point where motor functions are lost        B) or a direct hit to the spinal cord is achieved such that signals from the brain can no longer reach the arm and or legs in an incapacitating manner.    2) Massive blood loss which physically limits the functioning the brain. Notice nowhere in the above statements does it say KE plays no role. Without doubt, KE energy can (but is not certain to) incapacitate a person. Take a step back and think about what happens when someone is punched in the torso. There is no hit to the CNS, there is no massive blood loss. But the person punched can be incapacitated. It is purely KE being dumped onto a person's body, causing damage similar to the temporal wound channel from a pistol round. But the damage from the bullet is much worse. Most of the temporary damage and stretch is imparted internally on the organs, not externally on the ribs or skin as with a punch. The KE from an adult male throwing a "full power shot" is about 100 ft-lbs. When people say the 100-200 ft-lbs difference between 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.. doesn't buy you anything, this is simply wrong.

Actually all damage from a bullet is caused by kinetic energy. The energy that pushes a bullet has long since stopped by the time the bullet reaches you, providing the muzzle of the firearm is not pressed against your body.

The other part you are not considering is the KE is being applied to such a small area, size of the bullet.  If a 22cal hole gets zipped right through you it is not as bad as a golf ball sized hole.  The goal is to get the most transfer of KE.  Something that just punches a hole through an object is not getting any significant KE transfer.

Think about how a 5.56 will zip a hole through a steel plate and the plate hardly moves.  Shoot the same plate with a 9mm and the plate moves a whole lot.  

A person being knocked over simply from the KE from a bullet is BS.  If the bullet zips through them there was minimal transfer of energy.  Now if the bullet hits a spine or other critical organ then the person will drop like a rock, but that has nothing to do with "knock down" power of the round.

Shot placement is still key.

You can't compare a punch to a bullet.  A punch incapacitates by stretching/compressing nerves and the attendant sudden severe pain it causes.  The exception is strikes to the head which I'll deal with below.  A strike to the solar plexus will stretch nerves.  A strike to bone will compress nerves.  Both cause a lot of pain.  If someone is on drugs then they will be less affected by strikes to these areas.  

A strike to the head, especially if it imparts a rotational component, will cause twisting of the brainstem and therefore the Reticular Activating System, which then causes loss of consciousness.  

If a bullet strikes someone and causes sudden severe pain, it can make them drop their attack.  Even if it doesn't cause severe pain, it can take the fight out of someone from purely psychological reasons.

Kinetic energy doesn't factor into either of these two reasons other than you need enough kinetic energy to compress tissue enough to cause pain.

Kinetic energy plays no role in incapacitation in the way you're thinking it does.

Quoted: Quoted: Take a step back and think about what happens when someone is punched in the torso. There is no hit to the CNS, there is no massive blood loss. And how much KE is in the punch?  Not much compared to a bullet.  How much KE would and attack with a sharp knife need to incapacitate someone?  Not much. KE is just the potential to do work.  The work has to accomplish something.

I agree. And the knife can incapacitate without a direct hit to the CNS and/or before massive blood loss. The mechanisms can be pain or other psychological/physiological factors.

Most experts agree that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism AT HANDGUN VELOCITIES.

Does it not still come down to "PLACEMENT?"

Apples to Oranges. I think you'd have to compare the punch to getting shot while wearing body armor. You don't punch through someone.

Quoted: Your body is designed (to a certain extent at least) to be able to absorb some kinetic energy to the outside of the body with little or no damage. Internal kinetic energy does bad things to important parts. You can take a lot harder punch to your skin than your heart with no covering can take.

Exactly

Actually all damage from a bullet is caused by kinetic energy.

Obviously, what I'm addressing is the differences in KE between different rounds. the 200 ft-lbs that can separate 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.... are often dismissed by people ignorant in physics because all they are looking at is the fact that the penetration and expanded diameter are essentially the same. The laws of physics dictate that energy will be conserved, and that additional 200 ft-lbs of energy will result in much greater temporal wound channel, and slightly greater permanent cavity. That increased pressure wave and cavity stretch does not guarantee incapacitation but it can result in it. It certainly helps, not hurts so given the choice between more KE, I will take it every time provided I can handle the round.

I don't think the argument is whether KE plays a part.  It is at what point does it make a difference.  Compare 9mm at 400 ft/lbs, 357 Sig at 500 ft/lbs, 45 ACP at 400 ft/lbs, and 308 at 2600 ft/lbs.  Does anyone honestly believe one handgun round is outperforming another based on energy?

Quoted: the 200 ft-lbs that can separate 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.... are often dismissed by people ignorant in physics because all they are looking at is the fact that the penetration and expanded diameter are essentially the same.

The difference is far less than that.  In the Gold Dot line, 124 gr +P 9mm is 410 ft/lbs, 125 gr 357 Sig is 525 ft/lbs, and 200 gr +P 45 ACP is 518 ft/lbs.

Quoted: Apples to Oranges. I think you'd have to compare the punch to getting shot while wearing body armor. You don't punch through someone.

Had the fortunate experience of meeting a nice guy a few years ago. Turns out he was a retired cop from Albuquerque, NM, but was working part time for ABQ PD.

A few months later, he and his partner (also retired but working, both with at least 20 years experience each) were talking to a guy with a mental Hx, tho this might or might not have been known to them.

Not a sudden thing, like 20-30 minutes into the interview, bad guy pulls an old Webley revolver. Shoots partner in head. vest didn't help at all. My acquaintance gets three or four in the chest. ONE misses vest, and kills him, while he is attempting to pull parter away from bad guy. Cop acquiantance gets a few shots off, with what I do not know, or how many hits he scored.

Just a story to show that vests don't always help. I'll have to go back and try to find the story, but it was extensivley covered in the ABQ news, probably about two or three years ago.

Quoted: The other part you are not considering is the KE is being applied to such a small area, size of the bullet.  If a 22cal hole gets zipped right through you it is not as bad as a golf ball sized hole.  The goal is to get the most transfer of KE.  Something that just punches a hole through an object is not getting any significant KE transfer.

I'll repeat what I said above:

Quoted: what I'm addressing is the differences in KE between different rounds. the 200 ft-lbs that can separate 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.... are often dismissed by people ignorant in physics because all they are looking at is the fact that the penetration and expanded diameter are essentially the same. The laws of physics dictate that energy will be conserved, and that additional 200 ft-lbs of energy will result in much greater temporal wound channel, and slightly greater permanent cavity. That increased pressure wave and cavity stretch does not guarantee incapacitation but it can result in it. It certainly helps, not hurts so given the choice between more KE, I will take it every time provided I can handle the round.

With the same KE, same expanded diameter, the greater KE in the higher energy rounds manifests itself in a greater temporal wound channel. That is not a small area.

Think about how a 5.56 will zip a hole through a steel plate and the plate hardly moves.  Shoot the same plate with a 9mm and the plate moves a whole lot.   A person being knocked over simply from the KE from a bullet is BS.  If the bullet zips through them there was minimal transfer of energy.  Now if the bullet hits a spine or other critical organ then the person will drop like a rock, but that has nothing to do with "knock down" power of the round. Shot placement is still key.

You are confusing what I am saying and the differences between Kinetic Energy and momentum. Nobody and certainly not I am saying anything is "knocked over" from greater KE, I am saying greater KE imparts greater damage (mostly non-permanent) damage to the subjects body, and that can result in incapacitation through pain or the other psychological/physiological mechanisms (see Dr Courtney's studies on the effects of pressure waves from bullets).

And yes, shot placement is key

Quoted: Quoted: Apples to Oranges. I think you'd have to compare the punch to getting shot while wearing body armor. You don't punch through someone. Had the fortunate experience of meeting a nice guy a few years ago. Turns out he was a retired cop from Albuquerque, NM, but was working part time for ABQ PD. A few months later, he and his partner (also retired but working, both with at least 20 years experience each) were talking to a guy with a mental Hx, tho this might or might not have been known to them. Not a sudden thing, like 20-30 minutes into the interview, bad guy pulls an old Webley revolver. Shoots partner in head. vest didn't help at all. My acquaintance gets three or four in the chest. ONE misses vest, and kills him, while he is attempting to pull parter away from bad guy. Cop acquiantance gets a few shots off, with what I do not know, or how many hits he scored. Just a story to show that vests don't always help. I'll have to go back and try to find the story, but it was extensivley covered in the ABQ news, probably about two or three years ago.

Vests don't even always help if they stop the bullet, blunt force trauma can be enough to do serious injury or death. Which was basically what I was getting at.

Remember that all a bullet is is a KE delivery media.

The Kinetic Energy of the bullet is converted to heat energy when the target is hit.

The crushing and tearing of the damaged flesh is the heat energy in action.

If the bullet passes all the way through, only a portion of the KE was converted.

What bullet construction does is determine how quickly the bullet transfers its KE into the targets flesh.

Quoted: You can't compare a punch to a bullet.  A punch incapacitates by stretching/compressing nerves and the attendant sudden severe pain it causes.

And what do you think tissue stretch in the temporal cavity does?

The exception is strikes to the head which I'll deal with below.  A strike to the solar plexus will stretch nerves.  A strike to bone will compress nerves.  Both cause a lot of pain.

Or a strike to the jaw compressing the nerves where it meets your skull. All of which illustrate my point on how incapacitation can be achieved without having to create a permanent wound channel through the brain or spine, or depriving it of blood, in this case by disrupting the CNS through the nerves.

If someone is on drugs then they will be less affected by strikes to these areas.

Exactly, which would be why I said "Does that additional "punch" from more KE guarantee you anything? Of course not, especially if you are dealing with a bad guy on drugs."

If a bullet strikes someone and causes sudden severe pain, it can make them drop their attack.  Even if it doesn't cause severe pain, it can take the fight out of someone from purely psychological reasons.

I agree

Kinetic energy doesn't factor into either of these two reasons other than you need enough kinetic energy to compress tissue enough to cause pain. Kinetic energy plays no role in incapacitation in the way you're thinking it does.

Sorry but this is incorrect. Greater KE results in a greater temporal cavity stretch, greater pressure wave, both of which can have psychological (pain) and/or physiological effects (again, see Dr Courtney's studies from MIT). You've seen how water shoots into the air out of the top of a gallon jug when you shoot it. What do you think would happen to the blood in a person's heart when the 1000 PSI pressure wave compresses the heart, which just happens to be connected to his brain through some of the largest veins and arteries in his body?

Quoted: Most experts agree that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism AT HANDGUN VELOCITIES.

Again, this shows the misunderstanding of KE naysayers. Even Dr Fackler who is one of the key figures to clarify that KE is overrated (and at the time it was, this does NOT say it is not a factor) would disagree. He defines wounding as the permanent cavity and temporary cavity, and states clearly greater KE results in a greater temporal cavity, and therefore greater wounding.

Quoted: Apples to Oranges. I think you'd have to compare the punch to getting shot while wearing body armor. You don't punch through someone.

So you are saying you would rather have 100 ft-lbs worth of tissue stretch applied on your internal organs than your skin, muscles, and bones? Which do you think would hurt more and create more permenant damage?

Quoted: Quoted: ...Notice nowhere in the above statements does it say KE plays no role. Without doubt, KE energy can (but is not certain to) incapacitate a person. Take a step back and think about what happens when someone is punched in the torso. Read this: WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY as it will explain why KE is not considered. KE only established a POTENTIAL but that depends on a number of factors (one of the biggest is bullet design).  By itself KE means nothing in relation to terninal performance.

I have read it and agree with it overall. Again, this illustrates my point that people read these articles and don't understand what they are saying.

Fackler in no way considers KE to be something to be dismissed or "not considered." He addresses how it is overrated (which 20 years ago was true) and the misconceptions in its role regarding wounding.

My comments are in regards to people looking purely at the penetration and bullet diam of 9mm vs 357 Sig and assuming that because they are roughly the same, the performance in regards to terminal ballistics are the same. This could not be further than the truth. Read it again and you will find even using Fackler's own words, the greater velocity will result in greater wounding (through increased tissue stretch). That does not mean all of that KE from a faster round will result in either permanent or even temporary damage (as he says, some of the KE is converted into sound, heat, motion, etc.. which does neither). But the greater KE will still results in greater wounding. It's the quantifying of the effect that experts disagree on.

Quoted: Seems to me people read the studies from respected pundits (ie Roberts, FBI, etc...) and misinterpret what they say. Mainly their message is: Incapacitation is only guaranteed with common handgun rounds when: 1) A direct hit (the permanent wound channel, not necessarily touched by the bullet) to the Central Nervous System such that   A) the brain is damaged to the point where motor functions are lost   B) or a direct hit to the spinal cord is achieved such that signals from the brain can no longer reach the arm and or legs in an incapacitating manner. 2) Massive blood loss which physically limits the functioning the brain. Notice nowhere in the above statements does it say KE plays no role. Without doubt, KE energy can (but is not certain to) incapacitate a person. Take a step back and think about what happens when someone is punched in the torso. There is no hit to the CNS, there is no massive blood loss. But the person punched can be incapacitated. It is purely KE being dumped onto a person's body, causing damage similar to the temporal wound channel from a pistol round. But the damage from the bullet is much worse. Most of the temporary damage and stretch is imparted internally on the organs, not externally on the ribs or skin as with a punch. The KE from an adult male throwing a "full power shot" is about 100 ft-lbs. When people say the 100-200 ft-lbs difference between 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.. doesn't buy you anything, this is simply wrong. Additionally higher KE results in a larger permanent wound channel. The difference is not much with handgun rounds but neither is the .2" difference in expansion between 9mm and .45 which the naysayers praise. The naysayers will also retort that "knockdown power" is a myth but this is another confusion of the issues. Knockdown power is a fallacy talking about using the momentum of a bullet to incapacitate a person (which does not hold or else the shooter would be knocked down too by Newton's laws). Knockdown power has nothing to do with the way KE incapacitates. Bottom line is every day game and humans are being dropped before any massive blood loss occurs by bullets which do not hit the CNS. This is due to the KE being dumped onto the target.  It's real. Sometimes that deer runs 300 yards after getting hit, sometimes it drops like a ton of bricks. Does that additional "punch" from more KE guarantee you anything? Of course not, especially if you are dealing with a bad guy on drugs. However I would rather have it in my corner than not.

Because it doesn't...

KE causes PENETRATION when fired into animals/humans...

Energy dump is just a modernization of knockdown power...

There are 3 ways to incapacitate:

1) Physical destruction of organs/skeletal structure

2) Blood loss

3) Psychological shock

With (1) your hit puts a hole in a vital organ (heart, lungs, brain) (catestrophic kill/k-kill) or destroys muscle or skeletal structure required for motion (mobility kill applied from vehicles to people/animals).... Sometimes instant, sometimes not so much (eg lung hit to a human ('sucking chest wound) vs CNS hit to the same)

(2) is pretty self explanatory... You bleed out either quickly (arterial hit) or slowly (hit other places), before action can be taken to stop bleeding....

And then there's (3)... This is the one that accounts for the 'deer scenario' above - 2 deer hit in the same non-vital area by the same round will react quite differently to the hit... One may lay down and die from (2) or (1) due to psych shock (translation 'Oh shit I'm hit, I should fall down & cry), the other may run 300yds before (2) or (1) kills...

For this reason, most AP rounds try to maximize (2).... It's the only reliable backup to (1)... Examples are JHP pistol bullets ( more internal damage, more bleeding) or fragmenting rifle rounds (same thing)...

But applying more KE to the same soft medium will simply result in further penetration (and eventually over-penetration, which also enhances (2))...

KE doesn't kill...  Neither does physical shock...

Hunters and 'gun people' mis-apply (3) and call it 'stopping power', 'kinetic energy', and 'knockdown power'

Quoted: Quoted: The other part you are not considering is the KE is being applied to such a small area, size of the bullet.  If a 22cal hole gets zipped right through you it is not as bad as a golf ball sized hole.  The goal is to get the most transfer of KE.  Something that just punches a hole through an object is not getting any significant KE transfer. I'll repeat what I said above: Quoted: what I'm addressing is the differences in KE between different rounds. the 200 ft-lbs that can separate 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.... are often dismissed by people ignorant in physics because all they are looking at is the fact that the penetration and expanded diameter are essentially the same. The laws of physics dictate that energy will be conserved, and that additional 200 ft-lbs of energy will result in much greater temporal wound channel, and slightly greater permanent cavity. That increased pressure wave and cavity stretch does not guarantee incapacitation but it can result in it. It certainly helps, not hurts so given the choice between more KE, I will take it every time provided I can handle the round. With the same KE, same expanded diameter, the greater KE in the higher energy rounds manifests itself in a greater temporal wound channel. That is not a small area. members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg Think about how a 5.56 will zip a hole through a steel plate and the plate hardly moves.  Shoot the same plate with a 9mm and the plate moves a whole lot.   A person being knocked over simply from the KE from a bullet is BS.  If the bullet zips through them there was minimal transfer of energy.  Now if the bullet hits a spine or other critical organ then the person will drop like a rock, but that has nothing to do with "knock down" power of the round. Shot placement is still key. You are confusing what I am saying and the differences between Kinetic Energy and momentum. Nobody and certainly not I am saying anything is "knocked over" from greater KE, I am saying greater KE imparts greater damage (mostly non-permanent) damage to the subjects body, and that can result in incapacitation through pain or the other psychological/physiological mechanisms (see Dr Courtney's studies on the effects of pressure waves from bullets). And yes, shot placement is key

The TWC isn't going to be your 'method of incapacitation'...

PWC is what counts... Which is pretty similar in every one of those shots...

Which returns to the 'All pistol bullets in .38 or larger are equal, but some are more equal than others (eg more penetration)' point I have posted over and over in this thread....

When I was in college, we did an experiment in a physics lab.

We fired a .22LR at piece of wood, and measured how much momentum was transferred to it.

The results showed that 97-98% of the energy in that bullet was converted to heat. Only 2-3% of that bullet's energy was transferred as momentum.

I've known two guys that had been shot, one three times, one once. They both claimed that it felt like being stabbed by a hot poker.

Quoted: Remember that all a bullet is is a KE delivery media. The Kinetic Energy of the bullet is converted to heat energy when the target is hit. The crushing and tearing of the damaged flesh is the heat energy in action. If the bullet passes all the way through, only a portion of the KE was converted. What bullet construction does is determine how quickly the bullet transfers its KE into the targets flesh.

Incorrect, heat is often a byproduct of inelastic collisions, not the mechanisms to which material is deformed.

Quoted: KE causes PENETRATION when fired into animals/humans...

Incorrect, more KE can result in less penetration or more. It depends on what happens to the bullet and its interaction with the body. Look at M193 above and below 2700fps. Look at the penetration depths between 357 Sig and 9mm.  Penetration and velocity not a linear relationship even if you don't have fragmentation or expansion.

Provided the bullets don't exit, almost all of the KE (save for the miniscule amounts converted to sound, heat, and other types of energy that leave the body) is transferred to the body and this is usually manifested in greater tissue stretch. Simply applying more velocity doesn't mean it will translate into more penetration. It does however mean a greater wound (temporary or permanent) will result in the body. This can lead to incapacitation.

And then there's (3)... This is the one that accounts for the 'deer scenario' above - 2 deer hit in the same non-vital area by the same round will react quite differently to the hit... One may lay down and die from (2) or (1) due to psych shock (translation 'Oh shit I'm hit, I should fall down & cry), the other may run 300yds before

How many deer do you know of that are smart enough to know that they have been shot? If they drop for reasons other than a direct CNS hit or blood loss, it's due to physiological reasons, disruptions to their CNS due to wounding (temporary or permanent) which comes about from KE imparted by the bullet. The more you have the better, but as I already said, it does not guarantee incapacitation.

(2) or (1) kills... KE doesn't kill...  Neither does physical shock...

I agree, never said otherwise. Incapacitation =/ killing

Quoted: Quoted: KE causes PENETRATION when fired into animals/humans... Incorrect, more KE can result in less penetration or more. It depends on what happens to the bullet and its interaction with the body. Look at M193 above and below 2700fps. Look at the penetration depths between 357 Sig and 9mm.  Penetration and velocity not a linear relationship even if you don't have fragmentation or expansion. Given identical solid/non-deforming bullets, application of additional KE will simply increase penetration - not in a linear relationship, but in a general sense... Provided the bullets don't exit, almost all of the KE (save for the miniscule amounts converted to sound, heat, and other types of energy that leave the body) is transferred to the body and this is usually manifested in greater tissue stretch. Simply applying more velocity doesn't mean it will translate into more penetration. It does however mean a greater wound (temporary or permanent) will result in the body. This can lead to incapacitation. KE /= Velocity... Unless you have equal non-deforming bullets... KE = Mass*(Velocity^2) That said, the KE in question is mostly expended creating the PWC (simple terms, 'The Hole')... Not transferred to the surrounding tissue... Thus the so-called 'icepick' wound profile of a solid non-deforming bullet that does not strike bone And then there's (3)... This is the one that accounts for the 'deer scenario' above - 2 deer hit in the same non-vital area by the same round will react quite differently to the hit... One may lay down and die from (2) or (1) due to psych shock (translation 'Oh shit I'm hit, I should fall down & cry), the other may run 300yds before How many deer do you know of that are smart enough to know that they have been shot? If they drop for reasons other than a direct CNS hit or blood loss, it's due to physiological reasons, disruptions to their CNS due to wounding (temporary or permanent) which comes about from KE imparted by the bullet. The more you have the better, but as I already said, it does not guarantee incapacitation. Animals are capable of psychological reaction to injury, and each individual animal will react differently... They are not robots programmed with identical software... In the same sense that given 2 dogs of the same breed/age/etc, you can kick one and he will cower in the corner, but kick the other and he will bite your face off.... You can shoot 2 deer & get 2 distinctly different reactions - one will lay down & die, the other will run away... Your shot has nothing to do with this, unless you hit them 'somewhere' that impacts said decision (vitals hit, or skeletal incapacitation).... (2) or (1) kills... KE doesn't kill...  Neither does physical shock... I agree, never said otherwise. Incapacitation =/ killing For the purpose of my post, the term 'kill' can mean either a catastrophic kill (He's dead, Jim) or a mobility kill (fallen and I can't get up (or shoot back))....

Quoted: Most experts agree that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism AT HANDGUN VELOCITIES.

At individual small arms velocities, for the most part...

Yes, if I shoot you with a 120MM APFSDS round from a tank cannon, you will see some rather spectacular wounds purely from KE....

But that is an extreme example (aprox equiv to shooting a common mouse with M193), which can't be replicated by the types of weapons we are considering here....

Quoted: When I was in college, we did an experiment in a physics lab. We fired a .22LR at piece of wood, and measured how much momentum was transferred to it. The results showed that 97-98% of the energy in that bullet was converted to heat. Only 2-3% of that bullet's energy was transferred as momentum. I've known two guys that had been shot, one three times, one once. They both claimed that it felt like being stabbed by a hot poker.

Pain translation (eg severe pain felt like a burn, regardless of the actual burning), plus residual heat-of-firing (friction out the bore and heat from the propellant gas)...

If the kind of heat-conversion seen with impacts on inelastic medium (wood, steel, etc) was seen with humans, GSW would be self-cauterizing, and much LESS deadly...

As long as your bullet has sufficient energy, it's not something you normally have to worry about.  The accepted minimum is 200 foot-pounds.  Most service handgun rounds deliver nearly double that, often more, with rifles having the potential to deliver thousands of foot-pounds.  Virtually all defensive ammo in common usage today has sufficient (if not more than enough) energy to do the job; therefore it comes down to shot placement, which is a function of training.  In simple terms, what matters more is how you apply that energy.  For lack of energy to be a big deal, you'd have to use a seriously anemic load, something even worse than .38/200 in fact.  

Quoted: The laws of physics dictate that energy will be conserved,

Yes, but the laws of physics do not dictate that KINETIC energy will be conserved.  How much kinetic energy is there in the gun/bullet system before one fires?  None, there is only potential energy.  As others have stated, most of the bullet's kinetic energy is transformed into heat, some into sound, as the bullet does the work of penetration.  If the bullet does not penetrate something vital, the chances of incapacitation are much less.

Hydrostatic shock is the result of kinetic energy.

Or how about the LOSAT?  5,000 fps kinetic kill on armor.

Does a baseball bat to the cranium count?  I mean, something has to deliver the energy.

Have any ballistics gel experiments been conducted with Claymore shrapnel?  It'd be interesting to see the effects of very high velocity projectiles.

Quoted: With the same KE, same expanded diameter, the greater KE in the higher energy rounds manifests itself in a greater temporal wound channel. That is not a small area. members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

Temporary stretch cavity in handgun rounds is not a significant wounding factor.

Quoted: My comments are in regards to people looking purely at the penetration and bullet diam of 9mm vs 357 Sig and assuming that because they are roughly the same, the performance in regards to terminal ballistics are the same.

Uhhh....dude.....

It's not just looking at the rounds and saying that "Hey! Same diameter bullet! No net increase in wounding potential!". It's looking at TESTING (which has been proven as a valid predictor of performance in real life targets) and seeing that the two loaded with good ammo offer almost identical performance.

It is on THAT basis that people (like Doc Roberts) claim that there is no terminal ballistics advantage to the .357 sig.

This could not be further than the truth. Read it again and you will find even using Fackler's own words, the greater velocity will result in greater wounding (through increased tissue stretch).

And as I have previously stated the TSC caused by handgun calibers is not a significant wounding factor. In other words, there is a threshold for TSC size before it goes into what is generally accepted to be a cause for serious wounding worthy of consideration.

So you're comparing deer hunting, shooting 200lb animals with weapons that develop nearly 3000lbs of energy, with self defense, shooting 200lb animals with weapons that develop 500lbs?

If what you're saying is true, that a 357 Sig has much more potential than 9mm firing a similar sized bullet, then there would be a huge difference in terminal performance between say a 303 at 2400lbs and a 308 at 2650-2700. But there isn't. And given identical bullet construction, those two rounds going in the same spot would have the same effect on a deer.

Also, when two big rams butt heads, they develop something like 5000lbs of energy. Nobody dies. Shoot one with a 30-06 making 3000lbs and see what happens.

When choosing service caliber handgun self defense ammunition, KE should be way down on your list of priorities/qualifications. The difference really is negligible.

Where is the "big and slow vs small and fast" chart? 45-70 with 1600lbs vs a 22-250 with more like 3000 or something like that...

Quoted: Notice nowhere in the above statements does it say KE plays no role. Without doubt, KE energy can (but is not certain to) incapacitate a person.

KE does play a role. All tissue damage is in fact due to KE transfer. The problem is, not all KE transfer causes damage. And, generally speaking, increasing KE transfer does little to increase actual tissue damage.

Temporary cavitation is in fact the result of KE transfer that does little to no additional actual tissue damage. The body can absorb quite a bit of energy without being damaged.

Quoted: Additionally higher KE results in a larger permanent wound channel. The difference is not much with handgun rounds but neither is the .2" difference in expansion between 9mm and .45 which the naysayers praise.

KE does not necessarly result in a large wound channel. For example, a high KE .357 SIG will produce less perm wound channel than a .45, assuming similar quality bullets are used for both.

The .45 makes a wound channel that ranges from 38% to 60% bigger than the 9 mm (or .357 SIG).

Quoted:Bottom line is every day game and humans are being dropped before any massive blood loss occurs by bullets which do not hit the CNS. This is due to the KE being dumped onto the target.  It's real.

The experts don't agree.

Quoted: Obviously, what I'm addressing is the differences in KE between different rounds. the 200 ft-lbs that can separate 357 Sig and 9mm, 10mm and 40, etc.... are often dismissed by people ignorant in physics because all they are looking at is the fact that the penetration and expanded diameter are essentially the same. The laws of physics dictate that energy will be conserved, and that additional 200 ft-lbs of energy will result in much greater temporal wound channel, and slightly greater permanent cavity. That increased pressure wave and cavity stretch does not guarantee incapacitation but it can result in it. It certainly helps, not hurts so given the choice between more KE, I will take it every time provided I can handle the round.

The additional KE will not increase the size of the wound channel (except in some tissues like brain tissue, where it is likely a moot point). The temporary channel doesn't result in incapacitation.

No serious wound ballistics researchers are suggesting high KE handgun rounds. Choose a 9mm, .40 or .45. Test you choice with one of the recommended types of ammunition (eg, Ranger T, etc.)., then practice, practice practice.

Quoted: He (Fackler) defines wounding as the permanent cavity and temporary cavity, and states clearly greater KE results in a greater temporal cavity, and therefore greater wounding.

He identifies crushing and temp cavity as the actual wounding mechinisms. He then goes on to show that temp cavity usually doesn't increase tissue damage. The reason is that the human body can absorb considerable energy without being damaged.

The additional KE of rounds like the .357 SIG is additional temp cavity with little or no additional tissue damage when compared to rounds like the 9mm. Which is why Firearms Tactical wrote ".357 SIG -- A Solution Looking for a Problem?":

www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

The money quote:

We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.

Quoted: When I was in college, we did an experiment in a physics lab. We fired a .22LR at piece of wood, and measured how much momentum was transferred to it. The results showed that 97-98% of the energy in that bullet was converted to heat. Only 2-3% of that bullet's energy was transferred as momentum.

We did the exact same experiment, and the results completely contradict what you said.

Freshman physics for majors

We hung a 1 pound block of wood from a string attached to the ceiling,
and measured how far it swung when hit by the .22 short.

From the simple harmonic motion formulas, and conservation of energy,
we were able to calculate the velocity of the bullet, which was pretty damn
close to factory spec.

So we learned that virtually all of the energy was transferred by momentum.

The end results is virtually all of the energy will be dissipated as heat,
but not as direct as you implied.  

Quoted: KE = Mass*(Velocity^2)

No,
KE=1/2 MV^2

That said, the KE in question is mostly expended creating the PWC (simple terms, 'The Hole')... Not transferred to the surrounding tissue...

If that's the case, then more energy means most of it goes into creating a larger PWC, and therefore will most certainly increase your chances of incapacitation, you are now arguing against yourself

Regardless, whether more of it goes into creating the PWC, TWC, or converted in a way that does not result in wounding (sound, wave motion, non-wounding stretching, etc...) the energy is conserved and nearly all of it is absorbed by the body. To say that it is not transferred to the surrounding tissue is simply wrong and violates the laws of physics. And in fact, much of it does result in wounding. All we have to do to see this is take a look at the differences in the wound channel of 9mm vs 357 Sig using our favorite graphic:



Here is the image side by side (9mm 124gr on top, 357 Sig 125gr on bottom) for a clearer comparison:


To quantify the difference, I create a chroma key image like they do in Hollywood so we can calculate the area of each wound channel:


Using the the histogram in Photoshop, I find the area of each wound to be covered by the following # of pixels:

9mm = 10,942 pixels
357 Sig = 18,144 pixels

That means that "worthless" additional 100 ft-lbs of energy from the 357 Sig round (9mm 124gr@1181fps = 384 ft-lbs, 357 Sig 125gr@1319fps = 483 ft-lbs) resulted in a wound with a cross sectional area that is 66% greater than that of the 9mm. By volume, the wound channel from the 357 Sig is almost 3X greater (this is a rough number without knowing the 3D profile or doing any integration, but it's close). Now people here will say most of that is the TWC, and the TWC is meaningless but again that is a misunderstanding of what the "experts" say. They say the TWC does not guarantee incapacitation, even a poor way to incapacitate, that's very different than saying that greater TWC does not improve incapacitation.

The TWC is basically serious internal bruising. Again, if you were hit with a punch that resulted in this kind of bruising, it could very easily drop you (and again, it may or not be the case but to say it buys you nothing is simply preposterous). Also depending on where you are hit, that TWC would be PWC in areas such as the brain or liver. Someone said if it's the brain it's a moot point but not always. People hopped on drugs have been documented to keep fighting with hits to the brain. The increased damage from a higher energy round such as the 357 Sig can yield different results.

Animals are capable of psychological reaction to injury, and each individual animal will react differently... They are not robots programmed with identical software... In the same sense that given 2 dogs of the same breed/age/etc, you can kick one and he will cower in the corner, but kick the other and he will bite your face off.... You can shoot 2 deer & get 2 distinctly different reactions - one will lay down & die, the other will run away... Your shot has nothing to do with this, unless you hit them 'somewhere' that impacts said decision (vitals hit, or skeletal incapacitation)....

You are describing 2 different things. The dog reacting by fighting or cowering is a conscious decision on his part and depends on his personality. A deer dropping as a result of being shot is physiological reaction, not a decision. Animals are not capable of the "I'm shot" syndrome, where a person drops because he's aware that he is shot and acts out of fear, the thought of dying, or the power of suggestion from seeing people being shot in the movies. The deer drops because its CNS has been overloaded and has essentially shut down, this can be a result of things other than a direct CNS hit or massive blood loss, and that something else is the results of KE dissipating through its body.

The question in my mind is if I can carry a Glock 32 just as easily as a Glock 19, I ought to carry the 32. I'm not concerned about paying $3 more for a box of 357 Sig ammo to protect my life. The 2 rounds lost in mag capacity is irrelevant and easily remedied with a backup mag IMO, and I can handle the recoil.

Quoted: So you're comparing deer hunting, shooting 200lb animals with weapons that develop nearly 3000lbs of energy, with self defense, shooting 200lb animals with weapons that develop 500lbs? If what you're saying is true, that a 357 Sig has much more potential than 9mm firing a similar sized bullet, then there would be a huge difference in terminal performance between say a 303 at 2400lbs and a 308 at 2650-2700. But there isn't. And given identical bullet construction, those two rounds going in the same spot would have the same effect on a deer. Also, when two big rams butt heads, they develop something like 5000lbs of energy. Nobody dies. Shoot one with a 30-06 making 3000lbs and see what happens. When choosing service caliber handgun self defense ammunition, KE should be way down on your list of priorities/qualifications. The difference really is negligible. Where is the "big and slow vs small and fast" chart? 45-70 with 1600lbs vs a 22-250 with more like 3000 or something like that...

.45-70 ain't no joke, that's for sure.    In simple terms, as long as the bullet has sufficient energy and all other factors are properly accounted for (shot placement, bullet construction, bullet frontal area, etc), the bullet WILL do the job.  

Energy is one of those things that's only worth worrying about if you don't have enough of it.  More energy behind a projectile does not automatically mean things are killed "deader".  It's how the energy is used that is far more important.  

"It's not the size, it's how you use it"  To clarify, I am agreeing with 87GN on all points.  

Quoted: Quoted: Most experts agree that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism AT HANDGUN VELOCITIES. At individual small arms velocities, for the most part... Yes, if I shoot you with a 120MM APFSDS round from a tank cannon, you will see some rather spectacular wounds purely from KE.... But that is an extreme example (aprox equiv to shooting a common mouse with M193), which can't be replicated by the types of weapons we are considering here....

As an aside, when I worked at NASA, I saw a demonstration where they fired an aluminum pellet about the size of a green pea into a 6" slab of aluminum. At 4 miles/sec, it penetrated and left a crater about 8" in diameter. Looked like a HEAT round hit it

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Most experts agree that energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism AT HANDGUN VELOCITIES. At individual small arms velocities, for the most part... Yes, if I shoot you with a 120MM APFSDS round from a tank cannon, you will see some rather spectacular wounds purely from KE.... But that is an extreme example (aprox equiv to shooting a common mouse with M193), which can't be replicated by the types of weapons we are considering here.... As an aside, when I worked at NASA, I saw a demonstration where they fired an aluminum pellet about the size of a green pea into a 6" slab of aluminum. At 4 miles/sec, it penetrated and left a crater about 8" in diameter. Looked like a HEAT round hit it

That 8" would probably represent a temporary cavity in gelatin, with the permanent cavity being a good deal smaller.  

Quoted: Quoted: The laws of physics dictate that energy will be conserved, Yes, but the laws of physics do not dictate that KINETIC energy will be conserved.  How much kinetic energy is there in the gun/bullet system before one fires?  None, there is only potential energy.  As others have stated, most of the bullet's kinetic energy is transformed into heat, some into sound, as the bullet does the work of penetration.  If the bullet does not penetrate something vital, the chances of incapacitation are much less.

Again, this is a misunderstanding of physics. Most of the energy is converted into work in breaking molecular bonds to rip apart flesh, deform the bullet, and to a lesser extent to propagating waves, generating heat, etc... heat can be dissipated as a byproduct, it is not the mechanism which wounding is carried out. If I do a karate chop on a wooden board, almost all that energy goes into breaking the molecular bonds along the fracture line in the wood and very little heat is generated.

Quoted: Quoted: Hydrostatic shock is the result of kinetic energy. The "Shock Wave" Myth Seems you have some reading to do as well...

It is the result of KE, if not, what then? Magic?

I've read Fackler and as I said, I largely agree with him. Nowhere in there does he say KE does not cause hydrostatic shock.

Quoted: Quoted: With the same KE, same expanded diameter, the greater KE in the higher energy rounds manifests itself in a greater temporal wound channel. That is not a small area. members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg Temporary stretch cavity in handgun rounds is not a significant wounding factor.

Define "significant". I'm not saying having the TWC does more to incapacitate than the PWC, I'm saying having a greater TWC is a good thing, not something to be dismissed as worthless.

Quoted: Quoted: My comments are in regards to people looking purely at the penetration and bullet diam of 9mm vs 357 Sig and assuming that because they are roughly the same, the performance in regards to terminal ballistics are the same. Uhhh....dude..... It's not just looking at the rounds and saying that "Hey! Same diameter bullet! No net increase in wounding potential!". It's looking at TESTING (which has been proven as a valid predictor of performance in real life targets) and seeing that the two loaded with good ammo offer almost identical performance. It is on THAT basis that people (like Doc Roberts) claim that there is no terminal ballistics advantage to the .357 sig. This could not be further than the truth. Read it again and you will find even using Fackler's own words, the greater velocity will result in greater wounding (through increased tissue stretch). And as I have previously stated the TSC caused by handgun calibers is not a significant wounding factor. In other words, there is a threshold for TSC size before it goes into what is generally accepted to be a cause for serious wounding worthy of consideration.

You know, I actually had you in mind when I wrote about people misinterpreting the writings of the "experts". How many times did you "quote" Doc Roberts in the thread a while back to say that 45 penetrates better through steel than 357 Sig?? before someone pointed out that Doc Roberts was talking about penetration in gelatin after passing through sheet metal, not through steel itself?