User Panel
Posted: 10/8/2007 9:29:25 AM EDT
online.wsj.com/article/SB119180608991151863.html
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Ali Jassim, an Iraqi soldier who received his M-16 in August, worried that the gun's bullets, lighter than those used in AK-47s, won't be strong enough to quickly kill combatants. "To tell you the truth, I would prefer my old AK," Mr. Jassim said. "The M-16s may be better for Americans, but the AKs are better for Iraqis."
I agree, AK's would be better for them. The Iraqi's will never be soldiers anyway. At best a half assed police force. |
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OK, this M16 tumbling round myth has to be debunked. and the AK round is not narrow...it is a fat-arse
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2 weeks later.
Wait a minute....you actually have to clean these! that is the reaction we get from the IA's in our ao. Can't figure out why they have problem with reliability. Ive seen a few m-4s out and about as well. I believe deep in my heart that this isn't the rifle for the country of iraq. No discipline at all within the ranks. IA's and IP's alike do not maintain any of there gear what so ever. I love the m16 platform. I shoot my AR regularly at home. But in the hands of these soldiers who can't do even minor soldier tasks it just doesn't hold. We regularly check the status of weapons at IP and IA checkpoints. Ammo counts ect. Generally the crew served weapons are unserviceable there side arms are horrible and the rifles are well...repulsive if they have any of them on them not laying in the dirt somewhere. They may be able to shoot them well and do the basic tasks needed with them but after being away from the training area and loosing its cool new gear factor they will turn to junk. They will stop functioning and the armourers needed to repair them will be awol. my .02 |
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New M-16's for the Iraqis after they just get done crunching all the old ones up.
No wonder my taxes are so high! |
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I want an M-16!
I wonder if they will train, and actually get, the Iraqis to clean them. I have seen how they 'maintain' things and am not impressed. |
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The M16 is a rifle for an army who employs US military doctrine.
The AK47 is a rifle for an army who employs Soviet military doctrine. The direction the Iraqi's choose to go in will (should) dictate their choice in rifle. |
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could you explain? |
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"If its Allah's will, then the M-16 will fire..."
That sums up arab maintance right there... |
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"Only the Iraqi Army has M-16's"
Yeah until they sell them to the terrorists... |
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This has nothing to do with soviet/american.
It has to do with straight money. Iraqis are cheap. They are stingy and they don't have the same value system as we do. They will shoot there brother in the back if they will gain from it. They will not clean there rifle untill it is completely inoperable and will still not clean it if someone will give them a new one instead. This is the middle east doctrine. Its new its frightening. A region where no one will do anything for themselves unless they see an isnstant reward in pocket, not for the community or country for the individuals at hand only. The comment above about a police force at best is too true. It is all they need. A major and strong arm police force that will keep the people in check. Anyone who believes the country will roll over and take care of themselves while american boots and bankrolls are in place is mistaken. |
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What are you basing this on? I found many of the Iraqi ministry of interior and 4th brigade to be highly professional. Many of the older soldiers had fought against the Iranians. The younger guys were gung ho and wanted to learn. They looked up to us and put out during the training and on missions. As with most soldiers if they are led, trained, properly motivated and equipped they will accomplish the mission. This is the same rubbish Euros use to spew about their colonial forces. It has been proven untrue throughout history, and it is untrue now. I am guessing you aren't a trigger puller at all. |
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So if Colt is supplying all these M16s, it probably means civilian LE6920s will be even harder to get.
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FN and Bushmaster make a lot of the M16A4s and A2s. The video footage I have seen of Iraqi forces being issued M16s that is what was being issued. |
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The only variable is leadership. With good leadership the iraqi army can be first rate.
You don't hatch leaders in a few years. It takes decades to develop an army with professionlism ingrained. A soldier who won't clean his weapon isn't one I want with me anyway. |
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I noticed that too. Will any of the Iraqi M-16's be FN made or are they all coming from Colt? -K |
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Perhapes you are lucky enough to be around a more professional version of the otherwise lacking iraqis I deal with. At besamyah(spelling on that) training facility I was in contact with alot of there soldiers as well as there iraqi instructors. We ran a BD6 run through with them showing what not to do. The attention span started off great and they were picking up some basics. But they had no hold of the walk to run method and if they couldn't sprint through the house they didn't want to do it. They would wander off for smoke breaks or break off for there own "horseplay" or conversations there leaders would come in start smacking around and we would have there attention back for a while.
Ive been on joint raids with IA's to find them sleeping in OP's or lacking essential gear like...say magazines. I was in karballa after my brothers and friends were slaughtered there by men dressed as soldiers...allowed in by iraqi army and iraqi police claiming to be the jewel karballa. Gov. Palace guards. My blackfoot company was in fallujah on one of the outer patrol bases for several months and my friends there reported friendly yet still unreliable soldiers. |
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As an Army officer you ought to inform yourself a little more and not just jump on the internet bandwagon. These weapons have been bio-metrically matched to the people they have been issued to. |
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What difference does it make? They never aim the damn things, just spray and pray.
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I will be the first to agree with you there are shitty Iraqi forces. But they are not all pathetic and there is no such thing as a untrainable force. Not when you are talking about thousands of soldiers. |
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I was thinking the same thing. Next thing you know the WSJ reporter will say "Hey if you just file down the firing pin it will shoot automatic" |
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Gee whiz. I thought PBS said the M-16 sucked and the AK hit twice as hard. Now I'm confused.
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Gotta start somewhere I guess....
Still, I think I would have given them our A-1's that did not make it to Demil first.. |
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The problem with most arab soldiers I have dealt with really think the secret to america's success is our gadgets. We had arab officers in the basic and advanced courses. all they cared about was how cool our tanks were. They never noticed for a minute that they were all fat slobs and the NATO, Israeli, Turks, Americans were fit and hard. In the basic course, the arabs disappeared during the field time. They never worked, never led, were never willing to do the tough stuff. The ideas of planning, PCIs, radio checks leader recons were completely lost on them.
Guarantee half those iraqi soldiers think that we kick ass because we have NVGs and AK-47s. We could swap equipment tomorrow and they wouuld be worse off than they are now. The crap they have now at least works when neglected. Our stuff needs maintenance and attention to detail. I think I'll blame israel. |
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Great, there goes even more freaking ammo. Let em use up all the spam cans of 762x39 still being dug up all over the place.
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Bio-metrically matched? You mean like "smart guns" that can only be fired by a person matched to the gun? |
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No he means fingerprints, "old school" biometrics. So when they come up missing there is hell to pay. I know two former Iraqi Air Force members who are rotting away in a shitty little jail right now (no heat, no AC, no showers or shitter, nice place) for stealing some guns. |
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Interesting, I wonder if they will clean their new M16s with gasoline or diesel like they do their AKs? This is a mistake. |
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As if the Iraqis buying M16s from us will impact the supply of Wolf 5.56 or the old M193 that some of you folks swear by? As long as the Army has enough M855 to go around (and we do) there's nothing to worry about there.... |
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Same thing happened to the Cambodians way back when
The troops were thrilled to receive the M16 |
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Why is it a mistake? The M-16 is gas-operated. |
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At least that is one country that we don't have to worry about buying up all the IMI M855.
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I think you'd be surprised. |
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Sell our M16's, buy XM8's...now that would be just about perfect.
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I'll stick with the M16/M4 thanks. |
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The Iraqi Army lost how many thousands of AK's recently? How long will it take to "lose" thousands of M-16"? |
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American tactics require marksmanship from all riflemen. Soviet tactics require short range marksmanship, with an SVD for longer range combat. |
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Let's not throw insults. I base this on Iraqi: loyalties, culture, peer pressure, need, and leadership. |
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I have to agree, the AK is best for the Iraqi Police and Army. I currently advise the Iraqi police on a daily basis and see the kind of maintance, or lack of maintance of Iraqi small arms. One thing I love about the AK, the PKC machine gun and even the glock 19's issued to the police is the amount of abuse they will take and still function. These are weapons designed for the primitive third world armies of the eastern block, tough, easy to use, and simple to repair. Even the ammo is packaged for untrained soldiers to easily load empty mags. These AK's use ammo from China, Russia, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, you name it.
Standard Iraqi practice to clean all small arms is to simply dunk the weapon in a can of deisel fuel and then wipe it off. No lube no bore cleaning, no nothing. I provided sewing machine oil obtained in northern Iraq for lube, bore patches, cleaning rods and then a barrel of simple green to degrease new weapons. And they still used that damn diesel. As good as the M16 is, without regular cleaning it simply will not function. |
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That is a weak argument if ever I have heard one. The Iraqis won't clean their weapons because of their culture and peer pressure? Then they need better leadership to force them to do their bloody job. The Iraqis I worked with sure as hell didn't want to piss me off. I found that a strong, firm unyielding hand or power is what they respected most. I always treated them fairly and without the usually bullshit favoritism they are use to. Guess what, they didn't rebel, or try to sabotage my directives. They did what good soldiers do and followed orders. Maybe my experiences were an anomaly but personally I get sick of hearing people who have never been to Iraq much less worked with Iraqi security forces telling me what a bunch of stupid, second rate retards the Iraqis soldiers are. If you say something long enough you will start making it your reality. By interacting with the Iraqis like I would training day 1 recruits I saw them in my 13 months mold themselves into a decent unit that I was proud to go on patrol with. Guys in my platoon spent plenty of their personal funds buying them ammo pouches and shit for their AKs we couldn't get through the supply system. The Iraqi national police are crap because of a concerned effort by insurgent groups to infiltrate and demoralize the police force which worked I believe because they do not use the Armys relocation policy. i.e. If you enlist in the Iraqi army you never stay in your hometown. The police recruit locally and don't move people around. |
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I betcha AK47s with some gadgets hanging off them would impress them equally as much as an M16 AND would cost less.
What's a Bulgy AK47 with a reddot going to cost compared to a #%$@ing Colt? - BG |
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Hmmm, I ought to start up a company that subcontracts rifle cleaning services for Iraq.
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I couldn't agree more. The IP's are so dirty and so quick to do the wrong thing because they are too close to home and to there families. They are too close to the threat/home. When they are too afraid to snatch up a known and deadly terrorist because they fear for themselves and there families it is a problem. I have seen a major iraqi police firgure south of baghdad sweep up a certain HVT and treat him as he was a bad guy. Without fear or worry about the result. I cited this to the fact that his american allies would have his back and we did. That is the right way to do things. But it is the exception not the rule. |
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Sooo lemme get this straight they get brand new M16s but when I got deployed my Infantry Battalion wasn't issued M4s like we were promised, but M16s that already had at least 2 deployments on them, why the fuck do they get new rifles, and I'm using hand-me-downs.
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Wow, I haven't seen you bring up that XM8 shit in a while. |
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This may be a stupid question, but why are
ETA 'cus now I know. Why did they want to change? |
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You answered your own question. |
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because they bought and paid for them. That's why. |
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