My parents are looking for a shotgun for their homes.  My dad is 58, my mom will be 56.  Neither are frail, but they are no spring chickens either.  My mom is the one who really wants one, so I think the pistol grip pump action is out of the question.

What do ya'll think?

Here are some questions
1.  12 gauge or 20
2.  Pump or semi-auto
3.  What type of ammo is best for home defense

One of the guns I am looking at is the Remington 870 Wingmaster Light Contour with a 26" bbl.  4 shots and 6 3/4 pounds.  Should be light enought for my mom to use.  I don't know about the recoil though.

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.  Thanks.

I would recommend either a...

Benelli Nova Spec Purpose

or

Remington 870 Magnum.

Both are pump and cost less than half of most semi autos.

Both are 12 Ga., I wouldn't let the wife use a 20 Ga.

Pumps give the "rack up" factor and semi auto may be too much money for these candidates.

I mix load the mag w/ slugs, buck and steel goose loads.

I'd go very short 18" for a in the home gun.

SteyrAUG,

Having never fired a "magnum" load, would that be a bit much for my mom?

Darin- 12ga is a bit much for a 56 year old women- hell. I know LEO's who flinch like bitches when firing HELR 12ga loads!

I say handgun handgun handgun for the novice. THe 12ga does whomp ya.

It's what I use, but then again, I shoot constantly, and am pretty big.

I agree one hundred percent.  They have a 1911, although the mag is a bit rough, only really feeds 5 rounds reliably.  But they insist on a shotgun.  I'm 26, but I am still going to do what my parents want.  

Hopefully, after taking the gun to the range, my mom will learn how use the pistol.

My wife is a bit of a wuss :)  She liked the 12ga. Remington 870 with 18" barrel shooting 2 3/4" #6 loads.  The sound of a 12ga action being racked is a universal sound of get the heck out!

I have an old 16 gauge pump shotgun, it really doesnt have very much recoil for a shotgun.  It is pretty light I dont know its exact weight but it isnt heavy at all.  It is really old and has a problem with its ammo tube but shoots fine Im not really willing to sell it but maybe you should get a 16 gauge.  Just a suggestion.

Remington, Winchester, or Mossy 12ga "tactical" shotgun with an 18 to 20 cylinder bore.  This should not cost more than $250.  It will be loaded with 5 to 7 federal 00 buck tactical(reduced recoil) loads with either a side saddle or elastic stock shell holder holding slugs and more shotshells.  If the potential is real to hit innocents only a few sheetrock walls away, change 00 buck to 1 buck or smaller.  I am very weary about "cocktails" which is loading alternate types of ammo in the tube.  This is waay to complicated to understand during a crisis.  My wife's shotgun is loaded in this manner stated.  The magazine tube will hold two additional shells.  This is so I can load slugs from the side saddle immediately...

Well, make sure they get a new mag. 1911 mags are so cheap, there is no reason to not replace them when they wear out.
Mom can use the 1911, dad can use the 12ga.
That sounds like a good plan [:)]

They both take 2 3/4 inch loads.

The 870 has a 3" option
The Benelli has a 3 1/2" option.

When people are in the house you'd be suprised what old frail folks can manage. Nice thing about 12 gauge is you usually only have to fire once. Then people in the house get reasonable.

Weighing in w/ my .02

1. I'd recommend a 12gauge. More ammo choices. The recoil reduction going to 20 isn't worth it. Especially since under high stress, high adrenalin situations, it may not be as big of a concern. You may have a nasty bruise on your shoulder later though. Plus you can use reduced recoil loads.

2. Pump. Definitely. You can use reduced recoil, tactical loads with no concerns about cycling the ammo. Also, there's a tremendous psychological edge you get when the bad guy hears the cycling of the pump. Of course, you could argue that the bad guy shouldn't hear you at all (noise discipline and all that) but that's your call.

3. Federal's 00 Buck in their reduced recoil tactial version (sensing a trend here?). I also keep their slugs in a side saddle. But that may be a bit much for your parents. Your (and their) call.

Personally, the recommendation that I've made to lots of newbies is the Mossberg 590DA (#50668) -- Longer trigger pull reduces accidental discharge risk (always a concern with people who [b]aren't[/b] regular shooters in high stress situations). Ghost ring sights, ambidextrous safety, and high capacity tube. Reliable pump action. It's a lot less expensive than a Rem or Benelli.

[url]http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm[/url]

A handgun (.38 or 9mm) may actually be a better choice for your mother. They should really TRY before you buy. Perhaps you can find a range or somebody who has a bunch of firearms that would be willing to familiarize your parents. THAT would be my first step before putting down any cash on the barrel head.

YMMV

Mossberg makes a 20 gauge Model 500 with an 18.5 inch barrel.  While it would never be my first choice for my own use, it might be what your parents are looking for.

I don’t mean to sound sexist, but keep in mind that older women often develop osteoporosis.  Even if it’s not a problem now, it may be in a few years.  I could see a heavy 12-gauge load breaking bones, causing blood clots, etc.  If she hasn’t done so, your mother really needs to shoot a 12 gauge before you consider buying one.

For close range self defense, lighter loads are perfectly acceptable.  Within the confines of a house, which I assume is what we’re talking about, even birdshot can be deadly.

The optimum barrel length is 18 inchs; anything over 20 inches is really too long.

A pump is a bit easier to learn than a semi.  Also, pumps are easier for females with strength problems to use since they can cycle the action while holding the shotgun with both hands.

All this being said, I’d really try to talk them into a decent .38 Special revolver, instead.

Edited to add that, other things being equal, a lighter shotgun will kick harder than a heavier one.

More than once I've seen the Remington 1100 20-ga. autoloader recommended for the home defense role due to its lower recoil.
The gas action and lighter gauge aren't as hard on the shooter.  Also, as far as the "rack-up factor" that SteryAUG mentioned, autoloaders also make this sound, albeit not quite the same way.  The action still has to be racked and the bolt slamming home will certainly be a convincing factor that the occupants of the house are indeed armed.
The semi-auto shotgun can be a bit quicker for follow up shots and there are plenty of accessories for the 1100.
Slugs might be a good choice in the ammo vs. shot, although at in-the-home distances, the shot pattern is not wide spread.  Your call.
Don't scoff at a 20-ga.
 
I_Luv_Carrots point is valid, too, in that a handgun is a LOT easier to wield in the home.
Personally, I'd recommend one each of the above mentioned firearms.
Have fun shopping.

If you have osteoperosis, you really shouldn't shoot a shotgun, even once.

In wake of frail bones and weight concerns with shotguns, Juggernaut reluctantly reccomends that commie Ruger's PC40 carbine for home defense for the aged, petite and invalid.

Loaded with defensive hollowpoints(pick your fave' brand- Federal Premium Def. or Hydrashoks, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber), and with a preban 15 round magazine, it is light, controllable, quiet, and manuverable in-house. Double and triple taps on no big problem, even emptying the magazine controllably is relatively easy with a little practice.

If you can handle a shotgun, any good one, Benneli, Berretta, Remington or Mossberg, it's my first reccomendation for home defense.
However, before I reccomend a handgun to older folks who can't easily or effectively fire a shotgun(and that's most of them), I prefer to offer the Ruger PC series as an option, as a worthy alternative long arm, and a more controllable and intimidating one that the handgun. Intimidating to the perp that is, old folks are likely to find .40 Auto less intimidating  to shoot from the carbine than a handgun. It's likely to be just as effective, if not even more so(velocity from the longer barrel) as from the handgun.

Also, if the homeowner owns a Berreta, or Taurus, the high caps from all of these guns can be easiliy modified to work in the PC9 or PC40-just cut the same magazine relase notch as on the Ruger. Then you have that old "ammo compatability", Rugers' mags already work.

I'm trying to find one reasonably priced for my Mom. Pistol caliber carbines are the best step down from a shotgun for home defense, in my opinion.

Juggernaut

 I shoot 12 ga exclusively . For now that is .
They do recoil even with the shorter 2 3/4 in shells . You should be comfortable with your
firearm espically for defense .
 I would get them a nice 20 ga . I have a Winchester 1300 defender I love . Pump action is slick as wet ice . I am not sure it is available in 20 ga. but it is worth a check . I bet it is .
                  Good luck

A lot of good advice here, but I have to say that everybody's concern about 56 and 58 year olds being too frail to handle 12 guage recoil is a little funny.  My parents are both well past 60 and I wouldn't have the slightest concern about them touching off any shotgun round short of a 10 ga NEF single shot. I don't want no part of the NEF,  neither.  

Hell, my Dad's the goofbag who at the age of 63 decided to see if he could ride over a speedbump with both hands off the handlebar (no he couldn't) on his way to work at the sewage plant.  

My grandma who's 92 was mowing one of her farmhouse's lawns a couple of years back, got the mower tangled up in a clothesline, fell off and had the blade take a chunk out of her calf, which was promptly devoured by her border collie.  Then she got back on the mower, drove it the 1/2 mile back to her house and called the medics. My relatives were sure that she would croak.  I was sure that she would not, becuase she is a tough old bird.  

I wouldn't want to bet that she couldn't shoot my ass with a 12 guage loaded with bird loads. :)

I mean, you have to be old at some point, but that doesn't mean you have to be a wuss!

For home defense for someone that really doesn't shoot guns, I think a 12 guage may be a bit much. I'd opt for the 20 guage.

When it come's to home defense, nothing says,"  Sh_t!  Now I'm F__Ked!"  like the sound of a pump action shot gun.  I bet you'd never hafta fire off a shell.  

:::click-click:::
"You can leave in peace or you can leave in pieces."
:::sound of urine running down the perp's leg onto the floor:::

My personal preferance is a Mossberg 500, 18.5 inch barrel, loaded with Federal Tactical 00 buck shot.(Mine has a Surefire fore end, and an OKO reflex sight.)

Practical considerations aside, there are a few good PC reasons to use a 12 ga. shotgun for self defense.

Let's say (knock on wood) that your Mom/Dad has to shoot some drug crazed junkie looking for $20 for his next fix who is breaking into their house in the middle of the night (those old folks always got a lot of money hid away, right, and they will just be scared enough to give it to me in the middle of the night, right?).  Now, the local prosecutor decides that to be safe (or, maybe he is an anti-gun/anti-self defense asshole anyway) he will try to get your parents on negligent manslaughter charges.  The junkie just became a paragon of the community who was only helping his little sister find her cat that wandered away and maybe went in through the open window to your parents house.  Or, maybe he saw an open window, and knew your parents were old, and was afraid something was happening to them, so he went in to investigate [0:)].  And your vicious militant parent shot them in cold blood [>Q].

Now, your Mom/Dad possibly faces going to trial.  
That 12 ga. pump shotgun is now (to the defense attorney) your dad's old bird gun that he grabbed when he heard someone in his house.

The #8 shot was from his last trip to the range shooting clay pigeons, and he just happened to have a couple around.

etc.

Even in my enlightened [:X*] City of Chicago [}:(] where you cannot have evil assault weapons or handguns, you can register hunting type guns--shotguns and rifles.  

So there are a few PC considerations for getting a good 12 ga. shotgun.  You can easily find a high quality pump used cheaply (well under $200) at a well stocked gunstore.

Of course, some of our members would rather let the chips fall as they may and cut loose on the intruder with their belt fed Mini-Gun [}:D].

AFARR

I like my pistol grip Mossberg 500 Crusier 12Ga. $230bux laced with #9 and slug.

Simple, yet effective. And the "rack" factor of a pump is worth twice the price.  One of the most universally recognized sounds.

Have you thought about a 20gauge auto? Your mom and dad could use it with minimal training. The Remington comes to mind.

20ga pump with birdshot
Whatever they get, for Gods sake bring them to the range and let them use it until they're comfortable. Too many people buy guns for protection and never learn their pros/limitations.

Shoot safe

How about a double with hammers.Norinco has one.a cowboy shooter I know has a few hundred rounds thru his .Minimal traning ,easy to see if it is cocked or by feel in the dark.I believe they are about 190+ wholesale.

Instead of a shotgun, get your parents something cooler...  how about an uzi???

      [uzi]        [whacko]

I was just going to recommend a suppressed MP5!

My vote goes for a Remington 870 Express Magnum in 12 ga with a short barrel(18"-20"). The 870 is extremely reliable and the sound of a pump gun action closing is usually enough to stop a criminal in his tracks. The smooth bore slug barrel is an OK choice as it allows even a novice to accurately get on target. When loaded with #4 buckshot it is extremely lethal at close ranges. OO Buck is good out to about 50 yards and slugs are effective out to about 100 yards with iron sights. I would put a magazine extension on it and one of those clips on the side of the receiver that holds spare shells. The whole unit should cost less than $300 with a few boxes of shells included. Recoil is only a factor when shooting MAGNUM loads at targets. My advice is to get a few boxes of light loads for blasting at some targets just to get used to the gun without becoming scared of it. Pumpkins will be cheap in a couple weeks and they explode nicely which keeps things interesting.
Finnbear out

Like this?

[img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/034/fv/kv/9u/YJ84635.jpg[/img]

Mossberg 590 pump -
1.  unmistakable sound chambering a shell
2.  if the little wife/older parent has moral qualms about splattering scumbag body parts in doors, they can blow out the nearest window.  The noise will attract not only the intruder's attention but every neighbor for a 1/4 mile

I second (third?) the Remington 870 Super Magnum.  I have one, 3" 00 buckshot all the way.  But I can not find a 18 or 20" barrel for it.  It came with a 26" rem choke and the 20" rifled slug barrel.  Anyone know where to get a 18 or 20" Cyl bore or Imp Cyl defense barrel?  I know you can use the regular 870/870 Mag (2 3/4, 3") barrels on it as well as the 3 1/2 Super Mag barrels.

[shotgun]

Another vot for the Win 1300 Defender. Yes, you can get it in 20ga. Wal-Mart sells 100rnd boxes of birdshot in both guages for less that $15. Birdshot, as mentioned, won't g through two layers of sheetrock but will reliably make pizza of your target out to 15-20 yards. For your Mom - consider getting a pistol grip forend and pistol grip butstock (not JUST a pistol grip rear end). It can easily be fired from the hip with minimal recoil, partly becuase the forend hand takes some of the force, and party because of Winchester's Speed-pump design. I can easily aim from the hip, too. With birdshot through a cylander bore, targeting is relative ;-) Only drawback, at least with my brand of replacement stock hardware, is that you have to turn the gun over to reach the bolt release. May or may not be a problem with other brands of gun. Wouldn't trade my Winchester for any of 'em though. Holds 7  2 3/4" shells, never failed. Go buy a nice used one for them.

Snowmaster

Yep, according to the catalog, the 870 has the express super magnum, which will fire the 2 3/4 - 3 1/2".  This looks to be the best bet.

I talked to my dad the other night and he really wanted the magnum loads.  I guess he is catching the gun bug.  You know, bigger and better.  Can't blame him.

Thanks for the advice.

You know, I hope my parents live to be tough old 92 year olds.  Having the shotgun will really help.

I will add the mossberg to the "look" list.  Ultimately, it will be dad that decides, but it looks like a good gun.

Yeah, I am definetely seeing a trend with the reduced load federal round.  Good to know what works.

Anyone who enters my house without my prior consent (breaks in), isn't gonna hear the slide on my 870 Exp. SUPER MAGNUM.  They'll be dead by the time the slide comes back.  I'm not too worried about psychological value of the sounds, that huge BOOM! and their friend's internal organs laying on the floor are enough to make anyone else in the house bail, if not, there's 7 more shots in the mag and 11 more on the gun.  There will be no warning or "freeze!", once the target is identified with the surefire, he's goin down...period.  

Agree Cypher.  I have one also (870 Super mag).  Quite the shotgun.  I have the 20" rifled deer barrel on it.  Would like to find a 18-20" smooth barrel for it (see previsou post).

Nobody's pretending that a 20ga is more powerful than a 12ga...

I'll add my hearty recommendation for the Remington 1100 LT-20 Youth Model in 20 guage.

The 12 guage has recoil similar to the .375 H&H rifle round.  The 20 guage #3 buck runs about half that.  The 1100 autoloader reduces that even more (quite a bit more).  The autoloader also discounts the shooter "shortstroking" the action.  With practice, nobody's going to do that though.

The 20 guage puts about 75% of the lead downrange of a 12 guage.  That's still 2 1/2 .44 magnum loads every time the trigger is pulled.  As they say, at indoor ranges, "only the coroner will know the difference."

Recommended 20ga loads are either Federal's #2 buck or Remington's #3 buck.

If one goes with the 12ga...an excellent round...the Remington 11-87 and Mossburg 9200 also reduce recoil considerably.

As for the "shotgun sound"...I would hope that I'm not in a situation where I waited until the criminal was close enough before I loaded my weapon!  That reminds me of a TV show I saw recently....

The good guy and the bad guy are running around the darkened warehouse looking for each other.  Finally the goodguy sneaks up behind the bad guy and the good guy racks his shotgun for the Hollywood sound effect.  My question is...[b]WHY IN THE WORLD WAS HE SNEAKING AROUND WITH AN UNLOADED CHAMBER???[/b]

I'm not knocking the Remington 870, Winchester 1300 or the Mossburg 500 series...those are very well designed firearms.  I'm just saying, I don't shop for a firearm based upon the sound it makes.

- Robbie

Robbie,

No one thinks about the recoil when someone is breaking into their home.  That would be the last thin on there mind.  Same thing goes for hunting, when you see a big buck who thinks about recoil from 300win Mag.

Take a look at the pumps Fulton Armory is selling.  Haven't seen one in person, but I hear good things, and the price is certainly right.

I agree on that point.

However if they go out to the range with their spanking new mag-blaster and recoil becomes the reason that they never go back and practice as they should....then the likelyhood of a user-induced jam when they really need the gun is higher.

How much higher?  dunno
Enough to make a difference?  dunno

But when choosing between:
a) full power whatever that the user is unfamiliar with
b) less than full power whatever that the user is totally familiar with

I'll take B each day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Above he wrote:


If his dad is enthusiastic about a 10 guage, 12guage or whatever, then by all means go for it. Recoil is inferred...people react to the same amount of recoil in different ways.  If somebody likes the gun, they'll just smile.

Ballistically, the difference between 12 and 20 at ranges measured inside of a home is a nonstarter.

You definitely have some good points so I talked them over with my dad.  He is pretty adamant about the big "bang" factor of the 12 gauge.  I think mom is going with the 45 instead.

Thanks for the feedback.