I am not a religious person. I have a set of beliefs and will continue to adhere to them.

I ask this out of interest. Do any religions prevent people from owning firearms? Or believe they should be looked down upon? Or do you think that the people who are neither pro or anti gun are swayed by their religion if the topic is ever brought up to them?

The T*r*h teaches us that if a man breaks into  your home  in the night, you are to rise up and kill him as he means you harm.

The T*r*h teaches us that if a man breaks into  your home  in the night, you are to rise up and kill him as he means you harm.

Many Christian sects and cults believe that we are commanded to never resist.  To turn the cheek.  To love those who do harm to us.

I read somewhere that during the time of our founding fathers, the general belief was that a God fearing man was duty bound to defend his life and the lives of his family and friends.  That it was a great sin not to do so.  To not defend oneself was viewed as disrespect to the life God gave you.

Jesus, or was it John the Babtist, told mercenaries not to extort money and be content with their pay.  Said nothing about bearing arms or killing.

Jesus told his disciples to go and buy swords, that if they didn't have the money for them, to sell a cloak.  Was that so that He'd fulfill scripture and be "numbered with transgressors?"

God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever, commanded his Chosen to kill every man, woman and child, and all their livestock of certain peoples living in the land that was to be Israel.  To obey God, they HAD to commit genocide.

David, a man after God's own heart, slew tens of thousands.

I believe Osama Bin Laden to be "an" Antichrist.  I believe him to be thoroughly evil.  Christians that I know don't have much of a problem fighting those of his ilk, defending their country, their family and friends.

There was some controversy a year or so ago about the leaders of the Methodist Church coming out opposed to private gun ownership. I know that several people were talking about leaving the church. I have no idea how it came out.

The United Methodist Church believe you should be a victim and allow evil people to kill you... that to resist and possibly harm the evildoer is a sin.  

I am no longer a Methodist, just a plain Christian.  I AM a religious person, and felt my church took a left turn, and left me.

It must be remembered that the Methodist Church was taken over by draft dodgers and anti-war sympathizers during the Vietnam war era (at least at the top), and shortly after this, shared their headquarters with the National Coalition to Ban Handguns, which merged with Handgun Control, which is now the Brady Bunch.  The actual relationship between the Methodists and NCBH is deliberately unclear.  I asked, and got fishy answers.

If I offended any Methodists by stating the facts... well, you have to live with it.

I typed my response without seeing Gunslinger's response...  he must have posted as I was typing.  Well, truth is truth.

In my present church, the Episcopal Church, we say, "Father, I confess that I have sinned, by what I have done, and by what I have left undone."

You see, we believe we can sin by our inactions, too.

If I see a creepazoid beating a child, and do not interfere, I too have sinned.

If I do not resist, and not try bring to justice, bin Laden and his ilk, I sin, too.

That is exactly correct, Troy... thank you.  I had forgotten that point.

I don't have a problem with this one at all, as I was raised in this church and as a young adult finally had it with the way it turned.
One Sunday, the woman 'pastor'(start of my disagreement) stood up and gave her part of the shared sermon while her rather meek looking husband sat in the pew with the kids.  This lady was nice, but, had the short hair and was the taller of the two, making it look like the backward story it is.
Next thing is the "guest pastor", a hippy looking dude with long grey hair and beard and an oversize wooden cross in a wooden bead necklace...who starts to pray to the 'father/mother god'.
That was the last straw for me.  I was outta there.
I have also read about the anti-gun/pro-gay attitude of the United Methodist Church.  I wrote to my Mom's church pastor re this and never recieved an answer.  She was petrified that her only living son would dare to stand up for his beliefs against the church.  Nothing ever became of it.
I merely wanted to please Mother by attending church with her on occasion and I find out they've changed some of the hymns, too.
I can't back this kind of hither and yon doctrine, so I don't go there.
Thanks for the rant.

As a member of a United Methodist Church, I can say that the UMC's views are very anti-gun, and they even helped found one of the older anti-gun groups in the country.

That being said, my church seems to stray from the party line when it comes to gun control.  My Minister even stated that he'd take up arms to defend the country, which was a drastically different view than the one he had as a young man studying religion during Viet Nam.

I grew up Southern Baptist, and greatly enjoy the relaxed nature of the Methodist Church, which I must admit has helped bring me back to the Lord.  But I do not agree with their politics and moral relativism.  We have church people claiming to be godly escourting women at abortion clinics.  While I feel that everyone has free will and you can make mistakes if you want, I do not expect members of my church's staff to be escourting people to get abortions.

Has it ever botherd any of you that those who would "do it for the children" are ok with murdering children for convenience sake?

God Bless Texas
Nomex suit on.

You guys are right on the money when you separate th political agenda of an organized religion from Sciptural truth. The problem for many non-Christians is that they don't fully appreciate the differences between the different denominations, and even different practices within denominations, and cannot separate these from Christianity as a whole.

Christian principles such as free will, social justice, forgiveness, grace, salvation and the very nature and character of God are often twisted and distorted way beyond what God intended, far beyond what even a casual understanding of the Bible would support.

Two passages that are relevant to this thread are:

[b][i]Matthew 26:52-54
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" [/b][/i]

Notice that His disciple was already carrying a sword, Jesus had no problem with that, but in this specific situation he ios saying, not here, not now, something else needs to be happening to fulfill my mission.

[b][i]Luke 22:36-38
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.[/b][/i]

Jesus is telling them to expect trouble and be ready to defend themselves, but that it is not neccesary to be armed to the teeth. He said this while speaking to the twelve, and that two swrods among them was enough.

And one explaining the proper role of government:

[b][i]Romans 13:1-4
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.[/b][/i]

Comments?

My Brothers in Arms - if you find yourself in a denomination that has, shall we say, 'drifted' away from the Truth, and has embraced this World at the expense of leaving The Way and ignoring the clear and unequivocal teachings of the Lord, then leave! Period. Now. You owe it to yourselves and your family. You owe it to Him!

Has your denomination become a church such as the church at Laodicea:

[red][b]'I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would that thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art [u]lukewarm[/u], and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.'[/b][/red] Revelation 3:15,16.

Read on about what Christ says of this church, for it surely seems to apply to a lot of what used to pass for mainline Protestant denominations in this Country.

And what's happening with those mainline denominations? They are shrinking in size, so that at the present time, there are more Muslims in this country then there are either Presbyterians or Episcopaleans!  In these critical times, if your church is shrinking, you're in the wrong church for certain!

If your church has embraced what would have been unthinkable just fifty years ago, is it because Christ or His Message has changed, or is it because a sense of 'worldliness' has crept into your religion?

[red][b]'For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, [u]ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/u]'[/b][/red] Matthew 5:20.

Think about it - Christ is the same, we're not!

Eric The(Now,PleaseTurnInYourHymnalsToPage....)Hun[>]:)]  

An interesting website for your perusal....


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Most Christian denomination churches in my part of the world have fallen in line with the St. Francis of Assisi model.  Meekly harm nothing and noone.  It's a feminine approach to religion.

I left the religion of my childhood several years ago disappointed at the direction it had taken.  It's all about old women now.

i'm not trying to start an arguement here, but i've seen this assertion before. so i asked a jew who reads hebrew about it, and he says the torah says "kill". so which is it, really? anyone here read hebrew?

DK-

I'll vouch for Troy's explanation.

If I remember, I'll get the Hebrew equivalent and defintion tonite.

So it's a sin to fight to overthrow an unjust government, or one that becomes tyrannical? Where does that leave the Founding Fathers?

That's a bunch of crap. Maybe it applied back in the time it was written ([b]maybe[/b] -I'm not saying I agree with it) but this citation is just another thing in the Bible I disagree with. People saying, "It's in the Bible, so it has to be true!" is just another part of what has turned me away from organized religion.

Didn't someone once say, "Even the Devil can quote scripture?"

I am a devout agnostic lapsed Byzantine Catholic.  Parse that for yourself.
Holy Mother Church has never had a problem with us taking up arms, as long as the cause was just.  When I was a kid, my parish priest ran off a couple would-be burglars with his rifle.   Father Ted told the police, in no uncertain terms, that the only reason he hadn't shot the miscreants was because it was dark and he couldn't get a satisfactory sight picture.  Also, in the years since, I've known plenty of Roman and Byzantine priests who were avid hunters and who kept a firearm for personal protection.  I've even known one who was a judo expert.  

I am a Southern Baptist Pastor and I strongly believe in and defend the 2nd Amendment.

I see nowhere in the Scriptures where it is wrong to own arms. There are too many wimps in the pulpits today and too many sheeple in the pews. America has become soft. The motto of my Church is "Preaching like it used to be". I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you hear of a preacher in NEGA getting arrested for preaching against homosexuality and all the other sins, it will probably be me. I just preach the Word in season and out of season as instructed.

In the New International Version it is translated, "You shall not murder", in the old King James Version it is "Thou shalt not kill"

Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary translates the KJV word "kill" as [i]ratsach[/i], so I'll post the reference and definition here, along with the Strong's reference number:

[b]ratsach[/b] Hebrew 7523

[b]ratsach, [i]raw-tsahk'[/i]; a primitive root; properly to [i]dash[/i] in pieces, i.e. [i]kill[/i](a human being),especially to [i]murder[/i]:- to put to death, kill (man-), slay (-er), murder (-er).

Satan quoted from Scripture while tempting Jesus in the desert. Even the devil recognizes Truth when he sees it.

And here are a couple of items that explain both the passage and the Christian position more eloquently than I can:

Romans 13:1ff

13:1 Are there times when we should not submit to the government? We should never allow government to force us to disobey God. Jesus and his apostles never disobeyed the government for personal reasons; when they disobeyed, it was in order to follow their higher loyalty to God. Their disobedience was not cheap: they were threatened, beaten, thrown into jail, tortured, and executed for their convictions. Like them, if we are compelled to disobey, we must be ready to accept the consequences.

13:1ff Christians understand Romans 13 in different ways. All Christians agree that we are to live at peace with the state as long as the state allows us to live by our religious convictions. For hundreds of years, however, there have been at least three interpretations of how we are to do this.
(1) Some Christians believe that the state is so corrupt that Christians should have as little to do with it as possible. Although they should be good citizens as long as they can do so without compromising their beliefs, they should not work for the government, vote in elections, or serve in the military.
(2) Others believe that God has given the state authority in certain areas and the church authority in others. Christians can be loyal to both and can work for either. They should not, however, confuse the two. In this view, church and state are concerned with two totally different spheres—the spiritual and the physical—and thus complement each other but do not work together.
(3) Still others believe that Christians have a responsibility to make the state better. They can do this politically, by electing Christian or other high-principled leaders. They can also do this morally, by serving as an influence for good in society. In this view, church and state ideally work together for the good of all.
None of these views advocate rebelling against or refusing to obey the government’s laws or regulations unless those laws clearly require you to violate the moral standards revealed by God. Wherever we find ourselves, we must be responsible citizens, as well as responsible Christians.

Religion and firearms?? They're seperate??  My firearms are my religion!
[50]

[size=6][red]QUESTION[/size=6][/red]

Why is it that all of these "religion and ...?" threads end up being "Christians and...?"

Where are the Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Shinto, Spiritist, pantheists and atheists (yes, atheism [b]is[/b] a religion) giving their input on these issues?

Don't all other religions have some pretty firm stands on issues like weapons, self-defense, killing and submission to civil authority?

Is it only Christians who's beliefs are imagined to be in conflict with the issues of life, or that no one else cares enough about their beliefs to bother to post?

Let me go put on my Nomex and await a response.

It is simple, I meet with some of my fellow Jews this afternoon, I went to buy primers, by the case, he was looking for sever cases of .223....we all aren't all lawyers or accountants....Never Again

Oh, boy!  This is gonna be fun!:

...because Jesus is God, He's coming back, and He's the Boss.

...I don't see these folks as having the same "ardent fervor" as Christians.  Christ is not the center of their "way".

...maybe not all, but, the Taliban sure does.

...yes.

[flame]

So where does taxation without representation fall under "moral standards revealed by God?" Revealed how? Like in a personal vision to me in a bowl of Grape Nuts? Oh, you mean the Bible! How about the attempted confiscation of the Colonial Militia's weapons at Lexington Green? Where does God stand on that?

The Bible is great, but it was written a long time ago. Some things are just not going to be in there. Are there people that have it memorized, and when an issue comes up, they say, "Oh yeah, Ezekiel 25:17 covers this here situation, so I'll just..." Or do people carry the Bible around all the time to consult with in any ambiguous situation?

Wouldn't it be better just to know in your heart that when Jesus Christ directed people to turn the other cheek, he meant it more in the "give 'em another chance" sort of way, and not in the "turn your head a little further around so they can more easily aim the blade they're lining up on your throat" sort of way, and apply that in your daily life?

Sorry for the sarcasm on a serious issue, but like I said before, the humorlessness and rigidity of this all is what turned me away from religion.

People have not changed, Only the material world around us has changed. Every thing is in there, that we need.



Yes



Hope it was a church you turned from not ...

God does have a sence of humor, we see and hear about funny (stupid) people here every day, He put them here.

SSD

Just a Professional Ordnance manual

Jarhead,

No need to apologize for the sarcasm. The great thing about this board is that most of us are mature enough to speak and hear true thoughts without being easily offended. Your points are valid and pretty typical of those who are critical of Biblical Christianity. It's hard to answer any of your comments without referring to Scripture, so I beg your indulgence when I do, OK?

You asked:


In the New Testament James says this- [i]James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.[/i]

In his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul also explains this principle of revelation-

[i]1 Cor. 2:10-12
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.[/i]

The basic idea is that if you want to know what God thinks, ask Him. He will always honor a sincere request, and if it means spelling it out in your bowl of grape nuts, then that's what He will do.

As far as changin times, I think SSD had it right, times change, people don't. I'd ask you to pick up a Bible, open it to anyplace where it mentions people and behavior and beliefs, and tell me that human nature has changed over the last several thousand years. It hasn't. The books of Corinthians read like my hometown newspaper, detailing the activities and practices of the people. Look at it for yourself.

I am with you on dry, humorless, condemning "religion" being a turn-off. Based on s few people I've seen, I sure wouldn't want to be one of them either. Same way I wouldn't join up with the Taliban. Just not a bunch of fun, if you know what I mean.

The good thing about all the bad things in "organized religion" is that enough good people have been turned off of those practices but not turned away from God, and they have started a "new wave" of Christian church, much more Bible based and less legalistic, sticking to the basic teachings of Christ and salvation, trying their best not to muddy the waters with divisive and non-Scriptural junk. These churches are the fastest growing in America, and if you are at all curious, you might drop in on a good one and see for yourself if there is a difference. You sound like a reasonable and open minded guy, who can think for himself. You would be surprised at what you would find if you look around.

[b]SSD[/b] and [b]cerberus[/b], you guys are just way too cool. I [u]knew[/u] you were cerberus from a whole lotta posts. And it looks like SSD has got a handle on what's right as well, so I will be pleased to see more posts from him(?) in the future.

Eric The(Ciao,Baby)Hun[>]:)]

Yea every time i get my ass kicked i say, thank you! [:D]

oh yea you guys are lucky iam not ISLAM why?
because it would be my duty to kill you! because
ALA(really ben laden) told me to do so. so be very afraid [peep]

And how does this relate to the topic?

I use my firearms as part of my religion.  It makes it much easier to round up people for sacrificial offerings. :D


-SS

Be afried?? I don't think so, I ain't got the time. Besides my God, says I am to protect my family, seems America is my famliy, (my wife is German but that counts too) I grew up as the son of a precher, Southern Baptist, I joined the Army in 74 to get away, I retired in 94, I am still a Christion but I am not southern baptist. IIRC I was a small arms expert, and a Bradley master gunner, seems my God gave me a gift, I used it and still do. I am expected to do my duty, I will, I am a little long in the tooth, but I can still shoot. My God has given me an order, I will odey it. His son died for me, I respect that, I don't plan to die for my family, but I may make a few others die for theirs:)

SFC(ret) Rew E. Williams  
All glory to the infantry!!

I am an ATHIEST and I own lots of guns...


Does that make me a doubly bad person??