Jim in Dayton read me part of the lawsuit language.  In my opinion, based on the segments he read, the "investigators" tried as hard as they could to force a straw purchase.

-Jeff

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems to me that all of those involved in these "stings" are participants in a conspiracy to violate federal law. Isn't that in itself a criminal act? [sheeple] Cops CAN'T violate the law, they ARE the law.  I'm sure these guys are really bad guys if the mayor of NEW YORK was so concerned he sent his cops across state lines.  [/sheeple] I guess you missed this part:  "Mayor Bloomberg dispatched PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS to several states, where they apparently made straw gun purchases in an effort to file civil lawsuits against gun dealers." (emphasis added).  I don't see any mention of any NY police officers doing anything illegal in this case. He was being sarcastic.

I understood what he meant.

I thought she should have been hammered, but apparently buying one as a gift is okay. However, this case revolves around blatant straw purchases where one person picks the gun and provides the cash, and another person actually buys it.

Ok, my (hypothetical) 15 year old son saves up for a hunting rifle, but since he is not 18, he can't buy it.  He picks it out, hands me the money, I pay for it, I hand it to him.

Straw purchase?  Say yes and you get a free smack with a rolled up copy of the latest issue of Common Sense!

I do not see a reason for them not to through bloomburg in jail?  What make shim better than me or anyone else?

it is NOT illegal for a father to buy a gun for his son
that is not the definition of straw purchase.

also it is LEGAL to buy a gun as a gift for ANYONE, as long as they are not prohibited.

you are the actual buyer are you not ??? its your gun, until you actually give the gift
he certainly didnt buy it.

a straw purchase if when you buy a gun for someone else ( not a gift, but when it is planned for you to go buy his gun, usually with his money ) whether he is prohibited, or NOT, it is a straw purchase

would you be caught, or prosecuted if he was not a felon? probably not, but techinically it is illegal.

Quoted: it is NOT illegal for a father to buy a gun for his son that is not the definition of straw purchase. also it is LEGAL to buy a gun as a gift for ANYONE, as long as they are not prohibited. you are the actual buyer are you not ??? its your gun, until you actually give the gift he certainly didnt buy it. a straw purchase if when you buy a gun for someone else ( not a gift, but when it is planned for you to go buy his gun, usually with his money ) whether he is prohibited, or NOT, it is a straw purchase would you be caught, or prosecuted if he was not a felon? probably not, but techinically it is illegal.

That is the problem with the concept of "straw purchases" they are a load of crap. And ultimately this lawsuit will come to naught when stopping gun running. All it means is that a few dumb dealers will get screwed, but criminals will get them anyway. A gun is a gun. They usually dont care what kind. So, they give someone eligible to get the gun and they dont go into the store with them. Whoope de doo! Or they go into the store with the person and point out the gun then leave the store before the purchase happens. again, whoop de do! how do you prove it was a "Straw  purchase"? How do you know the guy isnt just "guiding someone" to get a good gun?? I do it all the time.
I say, yeah well look at this guns features compared to this ones, feel the difference?
Then they say "ill take it". Then THEY buy the gun. From the dealers point of view did i just "advise" someone on a good gun or did i "straw purchase it"?? Its horseshit. Unless the person actually admits the gun is not for him and he is only doing it becuase he knows the buyer is ineligiable there is no way to prove when a "straw purchase" is happening.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems to me that all of those involved in these "stings" are participants in a conspiracy to violate federal law. Isn't that in itself a criminal act? [sheeple] Cops CAN'T violate the law, they ARE the law.  I'm sure these guys are really bad guys if the mayor of NEW YORK was so concerned he sent his cops across state lines.  [/sheeple] I guess you missed this part:  "Mayor Bloomberg dispatched PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS to several states, where they apparently made straw gun purchases in an effort to file civil lawsuits against gun dealers." (emphasis added).  I don't see any mention of any NY police officers doing anything illegal in this case.

They were working as agents of the state, wouldn't that make any "evidence" they find inadmissible?  Further, shouldn't the BATFE be anally raping and the killing the dogs of the PIs involved?  They did commit a crime by willfully lying on a 4473.  At the very least they could be tagged for perjury.

Poor Bloombutt. He has reportedly spent in excess of $800,000 of taxpayers funds on his personal illegal gun sting operation.

www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/495714p-417714c.html

Feds shoot down Mike's gun suit

Daily News Exclusive

BY MICHAEL SAUL
DAILY NEWS CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF

The federal government will not file criminal charges against any of the 15 out-of-state gun dealers accused by Mayor Bloomberg in a federal lawsuit of selling guns illegally, the Daily News has learned.

In a stern rebuke to the city's high-profile crusade against illegal guns, the feds warned the Bloomberg administration that it could face "potential legal liabilities" if it continues to conduct sting operations that fall within the jurisdiction of federal agents.

Bloomberg announced the filing of a federal lawsuit last May against 15 gun dealers, who he lambasted as the "worst of the worst." The city later filed a similar lawsuit against another 12 dealers.

In both cases, the city sent private investigators to gun dealers and secretly videotaped them making what Bloomberg called illegal "straw purchases."

A "straw purchase" refers to when an individual talks with a store clerk about purchasing a gun, but then gets another person to fill out the required federal forms and undergo the mandatory background check.

According to a letter sent to City Hall, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and various U.S. attorneys' offices have determined the city's findings against the 15 dealers "do not rise to a level that would support a criminal prosecution."

The letter - sent Tuesday by Michael Battle, director of the executive office for United States Attorneys at the Department of Justice - also scolded City Hall for engaging in sting operations involving persons "without proper law enforcement authority," saying that could put the city in legal jeopardy. Battle added that City Hall could "unintentionally interrupt or jeopardize" criminal probes.

Asked if the Bloomberg administration plans to stop conducting the sting operations, Deputy Mayor Ed Skyler said, "Not necessarily."

"The city hasn't violated any laws," Skyler said defiantly, adding that the city will continue to pursue its civil lawsuits against the gun dealers.

Originally published on February 8, 2007

Quoted: snip

IOW, federal jurisdiction only applies if state/city-level municipalities like what's going on?

Hmmmm......

Sounds kinda like the argument used for a certain war.

Fuck that fucking fuck.
News flash: nothing is going to happen to him.

For once..

Go ATF.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I hate to say it, but I got the descriptions of the stings from the Bradycampaign. Seems two people walk into a gun store. Person #1 points out the gun, hand over cash in front of the dealer to person #2. Person #2 proceeds to purchase, fill out form and pay. If Bloombergs private "dicks" were truly that blatant then the dealers fingered are FOOLS A blindman could see thats a straw purchase. Its only a Strawman purchase of Person #1 is banned from purchasing firearms. The whole idea of a Strawman is to allow someone who is banned from owning guns to get them.  If Person #1 above is okay to own guns, then its not a Strawman purchase.

I walk into gun stores all the time with friends and point out several guns based on their criteria and needs for owning one.

I'm a "gun nut" and they arent.   I point them in the right directions and clear up a lot of their misconceptions.    Of the guns I point out, I always ask to hold them, and show them their function and whatnot.... sometimes they buy them.

Me pointing out the gun didnt mean they were buying it for me.   It just means that I can tell the difference between a Desert Eagle, Sig-Sauer, Glock, Heckler & Koch, AK-47, AK-74, RPK, M-4, M-16, et al.....

Quoted: Quoted: It seems to me that all of those involved in these "stings" are participants in a conspiracy to violate federal law. Isn't that in itself a criminal act? [sheeple] Cops CAN'T violate the law, they ARE the law.  I'm sure these guys are really bad guys if the mayor of NEW YORK was so concerned he sent his cops across state lines.  [/sheeple]

They wern't even COPS

They were ***PIs***

Quoted: this will go no where

+1

Do you think ANYTHING is going to happen to any politician or agent of the City of NY over this.

Quoted: I hate to say it, but I got the descriptions of the stings from the Bradycampaign. Seems two people walk into a gun store. Person #1 points out the gun, hand over cash in front of the dealer to person #2. Person #2 proceeds to purchase, fill out form and pay.

This may be true but.....the PI's also committed a crime. They engaged in a straw purchase. I asked the ATF about this and was told that it was very doubtful that Bloomberg was given "permission" to conduct such a sting operation. Without this, they violated the law. I was alsoi told that Dealers can only be held liable for grossly negligent instances where a straw pourchase took place.

I look forward to hearing Bloombergs response. He definitely conspired to break Federal Firearms laws.

BOmber

Quoted: 'Bout fuggin time. He had people make straw purchases. He should go to jail.

Exactly. Though this will go nowhere.

Asked if the Bloomberg administration plans to stop conducting the sting operations, Deputy Mayor Ed Skyler said, "Not necessarily." "The city hasn't violated any laws," Skyler said defiantly, adding that the city will continue to pursue its civil lawsuits against the gun dealers.

This response is not a surprise. They will not publically admit wrong doing. These sting operations will however stop. They are not authorized to conduct them and as such are conspiring to break the law and possibly committing entrapment.

FYI....I talked to the ATF ovedr the holidays and asked about gift giving. I was told that the ATF recongnizes that firearms as a common present. You can give a firearm as a gift to anyone. In the case of a gift, you are still the original buyer. A straw purchase takes place when:

1. You buy a gun for some one and there is an exchange of money or

2. you purchase a gift knowing that the recipient cannot legally own a gun.

Bomber

Quoted: Conspiracy to commit multiple federal felonies. Accomplice to multiple federal felonies. Public confession of guilt. Open and shut case. Bloomberg is a criminal. At least 15 counts of each charge, should be enough to put this menace to our society behind bars for life. Let's hope so.

Bloomberg is above the law.

When you live under the heel of poilicians like him you eventually learn that this is so.

Absolutely nothing will happen to him.

He can do whatever he damn pleases.

For the greater good of course.

My understanding of a "straw-purchase"...

It's exactly the same as buying alcohol for a minor.

If the PI's were both legally able to own a firearm, then a straw purchase did not happen...  Even if it WAS proven to be a straw purchase, the "straw-purchase" (crime) committed by the PI's would far outweigh any possible wrongdoing by the dealers.

It was an incredibly foolish mistake made by Bloomberg and everyone involved in the "private" investigation. They all committed crimes and should be fully prosecuted.

I really hope the BATFE follows through with the investigation and prosecution with the same diligence as if it were a private citizen.

Quoted: My understanding of a "straw-purchase"... If the PI's were both legally able to own a firearm, then a straw purchase did not happen...

That is incorrect. Under federal law it makes no difference whether anyone involved in the "straw purchase" is a prohibited person. In order to be convicted of making a "straw purchase" you simply need to make a false statement on a 4473 as other's in this post have correctly stated.

These are the two federal charges that are related to making a "straw purchase".

18 U.S.C. § 371 - conspiracy to make false statement to a federal firearms dealer

18 U.S.C. §§ 924(a)(1)(A)  - making a false statement to a firearms dealer

Quoted:

never thought i'd be saying this, but...

go ATF!

I know - How ironic is that!

technicalities aside, i think we should be taking a different approach toward this. we should be mailing the congress-people for the states where these gun dealers were. leave the whole "a straw purchase is this and not that" argument out, and instead be attacking the whole "event".

we should be writing letters to the effect of,

"dear congress-person of affected state,

do you know that a *local* official, elected to a particular *city*, of another state ENTIRELY, is attempting to subvert the state laws in YOUR state? did you know that the NYC mayor is actively trying to export NYC politics to your state in lieu of state and federal law?

do you really want your state policy set by [and therefore governed by] the radical mayor of a city in another state 2000 miles away?"

leave the gun/no gun argument out and appeal to the egos of the elected officials of those states where these "stings" took place. if we got a couple senators pissed off that an NYC mayor was stepping all over their laws, their state constitution, and their collective toes in general, we might get some action.

a thousand of us telling the ATF to investigate the untouchable is one thing. a couple senators telling the ATF to investigate is another...

Quoted: My understanding of a "straw-purchase"... It's exactly the same as buying alcohol for a minor. If the PI's were both legally able to own a firearm, then a straw purchase did not happen...   Even if it WAS proven to be a straw purchase, the "straw-purchase" (crime) committed by the PI's would far outweigh any possible wrongdoing by the dealers. It was an incredibly foolish mistake made by Bloomberg and everyone involved in the "private" investigation. They all committed crimes and should be fully prosecuted. I really hope the BATFE follows through with the investigation and prosecution with the same diligence as if it were a private citizen.

One more time:  That is not true. One of the questions is "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm". It has nothing to do with if someone else is barred or not. If a person marks "yes" to the above question and is not the actual buyer, that is a straw purchase.