Had a lengthy conversation about weapons ownership with my work friend and boss.

Told him about the Santa Clarita incident and then we spoke about the different tragedies caused by the ATF.

Us Finns, we have used to more control by the government, which might be a shock to many U.S residents. I have found nothing wrong in our gun laws to date. He said that the more he reads the more intellectual articles written by respected gun writers that he has geared more towards freedom to own weapons without a specific reason as it is now. But even if Finns could own weapons more freely i doubt that the tragedies like the school shootings would occur, so what reasons are behind this behaviour since the guns don´t kill themselves.

What i found wrong about the SC incident is that
is your first reaction when police arrive to load up and fire at them, i doubt that if the guy had thrown his hands up and surrendered that the LEOs would have killed him. Might have gotten a ticket for the impersonation of a LEO.

Come on guys, let´s get some interesting convesation going here.

anyone hear what this guy was previously convicted of?

if caught in the posession of a firearm while being in disability, i think he would have been staring major time in the face.

My next door neighbor is retired Army and the school had just diagnosed his 12 YO kid with the latest designer behavioral disease and told him that he had to put his kid on some drug.  He went to the school and told them that he was going to monitor the class to see what his kid was doing.  After 3 days of him quietly sitting in the back of the class the school changed their mind and decided that there was nothing wrong with the kid.  

My last g/f had a 12 yo that the doctor had on fucking [b]LITHIUM[/b]. I went to pick this kid up from school and he looked like rainman, staring at the sky and stumbling around.  I convinced his mother to take him off all that shit.  The kid was doing much better.

The schools have their hands tied by dickhead parents that don't want anybody to touch their little Johnny or Susie.  As a result the school disciplines the kids by drugging them.  This insanity has got to stop.

I haven't really formed an opinion about SC yet.  

And unlike Finland, the U.S. is a much less homogeneous culture. Many conflicting socicities have made up this country, and most are regionalized to one extent or another..

In the larger cities this comes into view. While I can walk downtown in Prescott with the 1911 holstered, and at best recieve "Ohh, Nice Colt"..In Phoenix, 100 and some miles south I would recieve more than one snide comment regarding "Going Postal" or "Looking for a school"..
This is in a state with some of the most open gun laws in the nation, but it's proximity to California has drwawn in some with conflicting opinions..

As to the recent events, the truth will never be known, due to the destruction of evidence, and the death of the accused. (Basically a conviction, and death sentence, without due process, which the media will ignore..)

The images presented overseas regarding gun ownership in the U.S. is heavily tainted as well.
Considering American media, it at best is biased against whatever "Cause de Jour" is getting viewers, rather than focusing on just delivering an impartial reporting of events..

And no, I doubt most Americans would shoot at the police who knock on their door.. (offer em some coffee and donuts maybe..)

Meplat

Tuukka,

>>Us Finns, we have used to more control by the government, which might be a shock to many U.S residents.<<

Agreed.  We Americans are used to unprecedented freedoms.  We have no history of a "ruling class" such as lineage based royalty.  Our history spans only 225 years.  The concept that all are equal is the foundation of our culture.  I'm not saying this is entirely true today, but it is the concept and attitude of Americans from 200 years ago.

I myself am both impressed, and amazed at the European nations such as Finnland, England, Switzerland, et al, that have no defined limits on government, but seem to work.  I believe it has more to do with a common heritage and older cultural basis than anything else.  In many cases, concepts that will work in Europe will fail miserably in the USA.  

>>I have found nothing wrong in our gun laws to date. He said that the more he reads the more intellectual articles written by respected gun writers that he has geared more towards freedom to own weapons without a specific reason as it is now. But even if Finns could own weapons more freely i doubt that the tragedies like the school shootings would occur, so what reasons are behind this behaviour since the guns don´t kill themselves.<<

Agreed.  The crazy school shootings are cultural anomolies and the truth is, very rare here as well.  Our media would imply that they are frequent events, but they are not.  They are  simply re-reported ad naseaum.  And as proven in Japan recently (and so sadly), a man with a long knife can be just as dangerous in a school setting.  

>>What i found wrong about the SC incident is that is your first reaction when police arrive to load up and fire at them, i doubt that if the guy had thrown his hands up and surrendered that the LEOs would have killed him. Might have gotten a ticket for the impersonation of a LEO.<<

In fact, the first reaction of most people is NOT to load up and fire at police.  This was a very rare event.  And, in truth, we have only the word of the survivors as to what happened.  Stay tuned though as it appears much more likely that the dead officer was shot by his own and not the perp.

As for a ticket, no way.  IF he were truly a convicted felon in possesion of firearms then he would and should have spent time in jail.  I await the truth as to the events in Santa Clarita.  Things I want to know are:

1)  What felony was he previously convicted of?  I have yet to here accurately what the conviction was.  This seems like something that any reporter could have verified within hours.  Curious this isn't clear yet.

2)  Who shot the deputy?  

3)  Did the perp actually fire a weapon at all?

4)  Why does the ATF and police use flammable weapons against civilians?

To me the jury is still out.  But I have to admit the thing stinks.  It sounds as if Beck is being demonized by the ATF and blamed for all the events.  Why is it the ATF never fully releases the facts behind these events?  Why does the media do zero investigation prior to reporting?  Why do they parrot whatever line the FEDs feed them?

Curious minds want to know.

James  

I love these types of debates with you, Tuukka.

The main difference we have is that in America, the [b]people[/b] run the gov't.  In Finland, and most other places, [b]the government runs the people[/b]

Meplat's point is very valid.  America is not one country; but many crammed into one.  In Finland, I'm sure 99.999% of everyone speaks the same language, 98% of everyone is the same color, etc, etc.  There are a lot less tensions.

And on the government strength; this is where I do not understand you, as you do not understand us.  I cannot imagine being complacent with any government rules that are not severly needed in the first place.  Americans founded this country with the promise of a government that A)protects us from invasion, and B) Collects taxes.  Any other form is not good in my eyes, and in many others'.

As for us shooting LEOs, that is a big misconception foreigners like you may have of us.  As jimmybcool said, most, I mean MOST Americans are scared of LEOs and federal figures, and will do whatever they say.  I think any circumstance of the regular citizen standing up to the federal gov't is reason to rejoice.

Great guys, now we have something going here.

About the loading up part, i got the perception from the many posts on the SC thread, seemed that many were siding with the shooter on that issue and the officers in question were just some JBTs again on a rampage and the whole truth hasn´t been resolved.


And a another issue is the UN hating, it was brought up at [url]www.cinemayhem.com[/url] BHD forum where actual career soldiers post, it was VERY CRYSTAL CLEAR that if you disobey a direct order to serve in a UN mission, cut the hair off and chuck your ass into Leavenworth. That is an lawful order and must be obeyed, you don´t join up so you can run the show, you serve your country where ever they send you. Our nation has a long history of providing troops for various peacekeeping missions ran by the UN, and it is a fact we are proud of. How many here really think the U.S goverment is going to let the UN forces pick up your guns, wake up now please.

How could you guys not know about this mans prior convictions. While most other statements about the shooting have changed many times, one hasnt. He was convicted of burglary, accepting stolen property, and posing as a police officer in California court.

However, it is intersting that yesterday the LA Times quoted the LA head of the ATF as saying that the had met with Beck about a year ago, when he lived in another neigborhood, and had no trouble with him. He complied with their search warrant, even locked up his dog for them so they could search his house.  So why he would open fire now is rather more of a mystery (or is it a coverup?)

I don't get concerned when LEOs shoot people that shoot at them. I get concerned when LEOs shoot up a neighborhood, shoot each other and endanger everyone within a mile or so. I would like to think that LEOs, given their position of authority, would be professional in their job. Is that unreasonable of me?

Stubbs,

I think most people both fear AND respect authority.  When authority is applied responsibly, we obey as we recognize that _proper_ application of authority is for our own good.

Having said that, there is real evidence that some federal agencies house rogue elements.  I think Waco and Ruby Ridge are incidents where the govt went beyond reasonable levels of force.  And sometimes, agents make serious mistakes, and then instead of admitting it and fixing the problems, the agencies cover it up.

And of course, it seems as if these mistakes and rogue units are always attacking "gun owners" and demonizing the ownership of guns itself as an excuse to "clear cut" anything in the way.  

Tuukka,

I don't think most rational people have yet decided that the FEDs were out of line on this one.  But, I am of opinion that they are covering up some pretty sloppy work.  I do not think Beck killed anyone.   He "may" have started the shooting, but my guess is at the time the officer was killed there were lots of folks shooting at the house, and nothing coming back.  Best bet is ricochet or friendly fire killed the officer.  Even if it turns out Beck was a felon that should have been caught, the truth of who did what should come out.  

I still find it hard to  believe that he opened fire on multiple officers.  He had to know his chances of escape were slim.  And firing on police never gets you on their good side.  They make a serious effort to get people that shoot at them.  Unless he was unhinged, the story reeks of BS.  But, it could  be true.  Time will tell.

James

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson

Re: The shoot out in Santa Clarita:

The Gestapo didn't want this guy Alive.

He had the Cash & could afford an expensive Lawyer.

He could have afforded an Appeals all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

And if that were to have happened something Unconstitutional might have been found in Kalifornia's "Gun Laws".

They killed him because they didn't want a Court Test Case.

Sure they did  [rolleyes]

Imbroglio,

That was beneath you.  

?

Finns are Notorious Naysayers....Unless they're saying "Niff!"
[img]http://a1964.g.akamai.net/7/1964/1392/1dcf6501c8f9fa/images.ucomics.com/comics/mb/2001/mb010903.gif[/img]

Imbroglio,

My bad.  Forget the above.  I'm just pissed that I didn't pay closer attention to what I wrote.

QCMGR,

Yeah, wtf.  I am just pissed that what I said isn't what I meant.  Imbrog's post is OK.  My bad.

What I MEANT is that people don't throw down on the cops because of RESPECT for the system, not fear of the govt.

Although there certainly isn't anything irrational with fearing specific agents of the govt.  Even if they represent the will of the people, corruption or just plain incompetence can get you just as dead.

In general, I agree with TJs comment.  In individual instances, when you see multiple armed agents of the govt coming for you, even if you are innocent and know you will win in the end, fear isn't unreasonable at that time.

James - in contrition.

OK

To answer the first question regarding siding with the perp.  I think that people here in the US who have profoundly conservative leanings such as myself have seen too many cases where some poor schmuck was shot full of holes and/or burnt until extra crispy because some government agency a$$holes got a hard-on.  It seems like every time we turn around some new victim is being punched full of holes and then barbecued because of some petty offense.  The guy that lost his wife and child at Ruby Ridge did nothing more offensive than saw off a barrel of a shotgun after being badgered to do so by ATF agents.  His wife and child are dead now because of a silly gun law.  Koresh and his followers at Waco were shot at and finally burned to death due to yet another silly gun law.  While all of these people might have avoided these dire consequences by simply laying down and giving in to federal authority, the laws they 'broke' were totally unconstitutional in the first place and are at least theoretically void under our constitution.  The way the constitution is written, any law that infringes on our God-given rights is void and we are supposed to ignore it.  Since all gun laws infringe on the second ammendment, they too are null and void and therefore anyone should be free to break them.

On the count of UN hating, count me in as guilty there.  The UN seems to want to impose it's will upon other countries that do not fall in line with thier way of thinking.  This means that countries that allow thier people to own firearms and freely sell and transfer them are going to be coerced through pressure from the UN to halt such activity.  The UN has a commission for the regulation of small arms ownership and trafficing.  The commission wants the US to curb individual firearms ownership and then have the government as the "legitimate monopoly of force".  Given the fact that our ancestors overthrew a government over 200 years ago that had such a "legitimate monopoly of force", the citizens of the US should not want thier government to ever 'monopolize force'.  Some are too stupid to realize that governmentat monopoly of force could possibly be a bad thing and they are all for it (rosie o-doughbutt anyone?) and some like myself are against governmental monopoly of force.  If the balance of power is in the hands of the people, they hold the government in thier control.  If the government has all the power, then the people are in the control of the government.  Sorry, but I didn't sign up to be anyone's puppet...

BTW - Before I knew better, I was in the model UN in college to get chicks that were in the same class.  Wish I had known then what I know now...

Hi, Tukka.  You have had many of the best answers that any knowledgeable American conservative would have given.

The Randy Weaver/Ruby Ridge incident came about from a mishandled government entrapment scheme.  The Feds wanted a spy to tell them what a group of white supremacists were up to.  They didn't have one.  So they paid (tricked) Mr. Weaver to commit a felony (failure to pay a $200 tax on a sawed-off shotgun.)

The Feds then said to Mr. Weaver, "Hey buddy, you just committed a felony!  If you SPY for us, we'll let you off."

He refused to play ball with them, so a death squad assaulted his property and shot his wife and son.  Silenced German machine pistols wasted the family's dogs.

After his wife and son had been shot, the ATF agents could be heard shouting into their bullhorn "We're having blueberry pancakes.  What's Mrs. Weaver fixing for you guys?"  The Feds had decided to SHOOT Vickie Weaver because she had "the strongest personality".  She had not been charged with any crime.

A mans family shot up by the government over a $200 tax?

To quote President Nixon, "(Expletives deleted)."

--------
Our government has a bad habit of hastily assaulting gunowners homes, gassing them with flammable gas, burning them up, holding the firetrucks back for a couple of crucial hours, and then bulldozing the crime scene.  
Dead men tell no tales, aye?!

Often, it doesn't take a great deal of effort to do a lot of evil.  All they have to do is *withhold* the firetrucks for a short time, and you are toast.

-->Have you heard the first Fed-cop say, "We can't have this 'burned up suspect' shit. We should have some way of putting out fires EVEN IF the firetruck comes under hostile fire."

No, you d@mn well haven't.  Because it *suits* our government's purposes to have these places burn up.

I understand that some murderers burn up their victims  up in their own homes in order to cover up the crime. (Thank you Discovery Channel)

Our police are becoming militarized.  I understand the military bombs, strafes and bayonets its enemies.  

I am not the *Enemy*.  I am the tax-paying citizen.  One day, we will become used to seeing Police shock-troops rolling around in our cities in AFV's. When you tell your kids you remember back when cops didn't have tanks and beltfed machineguns, they will think you are some kind of fossil.
"Yeah, whatever, grandpa."

--------
The Anti-UN thing I am in agreement with.  It is a question of sovereignty. I am not willing to cede even a little of my self-rule to the UN.

Just another American, malcontent, [whacko].

----------
"We don't got to show you no stinking badges."

Tuuka, if you want to know how Americans view their relationship with their government, you might want to consider two movies from the 30s, directed by Frank Capra and certainly available in Finland.

You've probably already seen them, but just in case, they are 'Mr. Smith Goes to Washington' and 'Meet John Doe.' Both exhibit the political view that in America the 'little people' count just as much as the rich, the powerful and the well-connected.  It may be a myth of sorts, but we are quite proud of the myth and form our political views around it.

Capra was a first generation American of Italian ancestry, but he certainly caught the spirit of the American character, and this same spirit was part and parcel of the reason for many if not most immigrants' passage to the New World.

No more King, no more unelected Parliament, no more royalty, no more 'jus primae noctis', no more clerics, no more 'unwritten laws', no more secret police, no more secret trials, no more anything that remotely resembled the Old World, they left behind.

[b]A man's home in America may be no more than a hut. The rain may fall brazenly through the roof, and the wind may blow without much effort through the walls, but the President of the United States must ask 'May I?' before he enters![/b]

Whenever we Americans begin to think that our government is reverting to the 'old ways' of doing things, then we bark quite loudly!

If they keep it up, one day we may bite, too!

Eric The(Unmuzzled)Hun[>]:)]  

Glad to see that other people 'get it'.  So many of my close personal friends do not understand why I get angry about situations like this.  I explain it to them and they still don't get it.  They seem to think that I am some weird paramilitary whacko (I don't own a shred of camo) and their ears are closed as a result.  These 'open-minded' people are so willing to accept everything from lesbianism to taoism, yet their minds close completely when someone asks questions about branches of our government and their activities.  To me there is nothing more important in this world than the battered version of freedom that we currently hold in our collectively careless grasp.  It's good to see that there are some that grip it as tightly as I do.