The torturer's dilemma - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The torturer's dilemma (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:46:48 PM EDT

[#1]

I've been with my wife for over a quarter century, I know torture.

I can say, it hasn't produced the intel she had hoped for.

G( Behind enemy lines)M

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:53:08 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.

That's why it works.

It's his, too.

Heh.

ETA: The article is rather goofy. The Soviet Union didn't fall because they were morally ambivalent or whatever the author is babbling about; it fell because they couldn't run a damned economy. Red China is pretty harsh, but they'll be around for a good long while, because they can run a economy.

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:54:01 PM EDT

[#3]

If it's a life-and-death matter, I'm for it..especially if multiples of people are at risk.

You do what you have to do to save lives.

HH

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:54:10 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
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-1 for torture.

My worst fear.

Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.

Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?

The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?

Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.

And when it turns out he really didn't know anything - or worse, that he wasn't involved and you made a mistake? How will you sleep then?

Torture is, in all cases, a bad idea. psychological manipulation, however, is worth it. torture is an outmoded and obsolete method of extracting information.

That said, I am using the actual definition of torture (inflicting grave and irreversable bodily harm for the purposes of extracting information) not the media's definition (fratboy antics)
Matt

I wasn't talking about 'gee this maybe might be the guy or it might not'. I'm talking "it IS the guy and he has information"

strange that some people automatically have to go for that line as a way to weasel out of taking a stand.

So why don't you go over to this thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and vote in the poll. Then give your explanation as to why torture, in all cases, is a bad idea.

You'd be in the distinct minority there.

Well, I suppose I simply just don't have the moral fortitude (on the internet) to talk big about torturing people. Torture is wrong - mostly because it doesn't even work all that well - I know a little something about torture and its alternatives.

advocating torture is only done by the ignorant or those insecure with their own power (and wish to exert their power over another).

But continue with the internet tough-guy routine. When you're actually faced with a man you intend to torture to death, call me and tell me how that goes for you.
Matt

P.s. Not sure just what martial art you studied, but I think you missed the point of the discipline. Key word being discipline. torturing a person is an act based in unbridled emotion or ignorance - neither of which are advocated by any martial art I have studied.

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:54:15 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
And when your child asks you, "daddy, how did you find me?" What will you tell him?

I made the bad man tell us where you were.

There are some places even a father shouldn't go.

I suppose you'd rather tell your kid why you couldn't find him when he askes why you let the bad men have buttsex with him while cutting his ears off with nail clippers.

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:56:18 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.

Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.

Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?

The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?

Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.

And when it turns out he really didn't know anything - or worse, that he wasn't involved and you made a mistake? How will you sleep then?

Torture is, in all cases, a bad idea. psychological manipulation, however, is worth it. torture is an outmoded and obsolete method of extracting information.

That said, I am using the actual definition of torture (inflicting grave and irreversable bodily harm for the purposes of extracting information) not the media's definition (fratboy antics)
Matt

I wasn't talking about 'gee this maybe might be the guy or it might not'. I'm talking "it IS the guy and he has information"

strange that some people automatically have to go for that line as a way to weasel out of taking a stand.

So why don't you go over to this thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and vote in the poll. Then give your explanation as to why torture, in all cases, is a bad idea.

You'd be in the distinct minority there.

Well, I suppose I simply just don't have the moral fortitude (on the internet) to talk big about torturing people. Torture is wrong - mostly because it doesn't even work all that well - I know a little something about torture and its alternatives.

advocating torture is only done by the ignorant or those insecure with their own power (and wish to exert their power over another).

But continue with the internet tough-guy routine. When you're actually faced with a man you intend to torture to death, call me and tell me how that goes for you.
Matt

Thanks for the sermon, sayid.

Posted: 1/8/2006 2:58:59 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.

Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.

Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?

The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?

Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.

And when it turns out he really didn't know anything - or worse, that he wasn't involved and you made a mistake? How will you sleep then?

Torture is, in all cases, a bad idea. psychological manipulation, however, is worth it. torture is an outmoded and obsolete method of extracting information.

That said, I am using the actual definition of torture (inflicting grave and irreversable bodily harm for the purposes of extracting information) not the media's definition (fratboy antics)
Matt

I wasn't talking about 'gee this maybe might be the guy or it might not'. I'm talking "it IS the guy and he has information"

strange that some people automatically have to go for that line as a way to weasel out of taking a stand.

So why don't you go over to this thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and vote in the poll. Then give your explanation as to why torture, in all cases, is a bad idea.

You'd be in the distinct minority there.

Well, I suppose I simply just don't have the moral fortitude (on the internet) to talk big about torturing people. Torture is wrong - mostly because it doesn't even work all that well - I know a little something about torture and its alternatives.

advocating torture is only done by the ignorant or those insecure with their own power (and wish to exert their power over another).

But continue with the internet tough-guy routine. When you're actually faced with a man you intend to torture to death, call me and tell me how that goes for you.
Matt

Thanks for the sermon, sayid.

Ah, you changed it - I was going to ask, how was anything I said advocating moral relativity? I'd say everything I said was in support of the absolute: Torture is wrong.

I'm not preaching - I'm just trying to share my educated perspective.
Matt
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:00:27 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

I'm not preaching - I'm just trying to share my educated perspective.
Matt
Matt

What's your educated experience, matt?

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:00:33 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

And that adherence to International Rules of War should be based upon Quid Pro Quo.

It is, or at least was at one time. Only the signature nations of many or all treaties until recently were the ones that had to obey them, and only if they were at ware with another nation that signed. Country A signed the Hague conventions against the use of dum-dum or expaning ammunitions, but country B didn't. Then country A could use them against country B.

The newer treaties seem to say that as long as the majority of nations agreed to them, they are binding on the entire world.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:00:48 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.

Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.

Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?

The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?

Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.

And when it turns out he really didn't know anything - or worse, that he wasn't involved and you made a mistake? How will you sleep then?

Torture is, in all cases, a bad idea. psychological manipulation, however, is worth it. torture is an outmoded and obsolete method of extracting information.

That said, I am using the actual definition of torture (inflicting grave and irreversable bodily harm for the purposes of extracting information) not the media's definition (fratboy antics)
Matt

I wasn't talking about 'gee this maybe might be the guy or it might not'. I'm talking "it IS the guy and he has information"

strange that some people automatically have to go for that line as a way to weasel out of taking a stand.

So why don't you go over to this thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and vote in the poll. Then give your explanation as to why torture, in all cases, is a bad idea.

You'd be in the distinct minority there.

Well, I suppose I simply just don't have the moral fortitude (on the internet) to talk big about torturing people. Torture is wrong - mostly because it doesn't even work all that well - I know a little something about torture and its alternatives.

advocating torture is only done by the ignorant or those insecure with their own power (and wish to exert their power over another).

But continue with the internet tough-guy routine. When you're actually faced with a man you intend to torture to death, call me and tell me how that goes for you.
Matt

Thanks for the sermon, sayid.

Ah, you changed it - I was going to ask, how was anything I said advocating moral relativity? I'd say everything I said was in support of the absolute: Torture is wrong.

I'm not preaching - I'm just trying to share my educated perspective.
Matt
Matt

Quoting huge chunks of text that you are not addressing is a form of torture, you know.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:05:49 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I'm not preaching - I'm just trying to share my educated perspective.
Matt
Matt

What's your educated experience, matt?

Unfortunately, (and I know this is going to kill my internet credibility

) I can't tell you about it. Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:06:37 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoting huge chunks of text that you are not addressing is a form of torture, you know.

noted, thanks

Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:08:10 PM EDT

[#13]

Matt said:
And when your child asks you, "daddy, how did you find me?" What will you tell him? That you removed, handfull by handfull, the entrails of his kidnapper after he refused to talk when you slid the banboo stalks under his fingernails? There are some places even a father shouldn't go.

No, I do not have kids, but there are better ways that torture to get to the truth. Torture is a tool of those ignorant of proper interrogation techniques.
Matt

I guess my take on it is this, plain and simple:

If a father won't do whatever it takes, and won't go wherever needs to be gone, then he is not much of a father at all.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:08:14 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am all for it. The end justifies the means. Fuck terrorists and all who support them.

Watch what you ask for, We as gun owners are not far from making the terrorist list. not far at all IMHO

Yup. Your opinion. My opinion says that your opinion is a bit of an exaggeration. IMHO. What do you base this statement on?

Paranoia.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:10:15 PM EDT

[#15]

Matt: If you can propose a better way, then say it outright.

If I could simply inject a kidnapper with a drug to get the info to secure the safety of my kids, then that is the way I would go.

I am always open to new ideas. I want results, not just entrails.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:11:01 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I'm not preaching - I'm just trying to share my educated perspective.
Matt
Matt

What's your educated experience, matt?

Unfortunately, (and I know this is going to kill my internet credibility ) I can't tell you about it. Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Don't worry, you don't have any internet credibility anyway.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:13:07 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
if you have to feed a terrorist feet first into a meat grinder to save some lives I'm all for it.

Me two! (sic)

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:15:12 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
if you have to feed a terrorist feet first into a meat grinder to save some lives I'm all for it.
Me two! (sic)

Ya, that is pretty sic, but me three!

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:23:22 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Matt: If you can propose a better way, then say it outright.

If I could simply inject a kidnapper with a drug to get the info to secure the safety of my kids, then that is the way I would go.

I am always open to new ideas. I want results, not just entrails.

Generally, people who would do things such as kidnap are not exactly "bright" or prepared to resist any serious questioning. If left to the profesionals (law enforcement interrogators, etc), the information will flow freely - if the person knows anything at all. With normal people, the credible threat of violence is generally more effective than the violence itself.

You'd be better off building yourself a waterboard and putting them on it. probably THE most effective means of gathering information. The media considers such a device torture, but it is hardly torture in the classical sense.

There are plenty of books out there on interrogation techniques. If you're really concerned about being in such a situation, the information is there.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:25:27 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Matt said:
And when your child asks you, "daddy, how did you find me?" What will you tell him? That you removed, handfull by handfull, the entrails of his kidnapper after he refused to talk when you slid the banboo stalks under his fingernails? There are some places even a father shouldn't go.

No, I do not have kids, but there are better ways that torture to get to the truth. Torture is a tool of those ignorant of proper interrogation techniques.
Matt

I guess my take on it is this, plain and simple:

If a father won't do whatever it takes, and won't go wherever needs to be gone, then he is not much of a father at all.

I can't think of a situation that would require torture given modern information gathering techniques.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:26:40 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Matt said:
And when your child asks you, "daddy, how did you find me?" What will you tell him? That you removed, handfull by handfull, the entrails of his kidnapper after he refused to talk when you slid the banboo stalks under his fingernails? There are some places even a father shouldn't go.

No, I do not have kids, but there are better ways that torture to get to the truth. Torture is a tool of those ignorant of proper interrogation techniques.
Matt

I guess my take on it is this, plain and simple:

If a father won't do whatever it takes, and won't go wherever needs to be gone, then he is not much of a father at all.

I can't think of a situation that would require torture given modern information gathering techniques.
Matt

Then why don't you go over here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and educate the rest of the brutal neanderthals on the board?

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:28:29 PM EDT

[#22]

If it would stop him, would you kill a man who is about to murder an innocent person?

Sure, that's morally justifiable and in fact almost imperative for one to do so.

Then why is, for the sake of stopping a mass-murder, torturing a man who knows about an impending mass-murder any worse?

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:29:12 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Then why don't you go over here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and educate the rest of the brutal neanderthals on the board?

Dude, two words: water board. look it up. it works EVERY time - far faster than torture.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:30:05 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
If it would stop him, would you kill a man who is about to murder an innocent person?

With our modern less than lethal techniques, there's no need to kill someone

If you could just yell 'stop' loud enough, surely they'd listen to you.

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:31:21 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
If it would stop him, would you kill a man who is about to murder an innocent person?

Sure, that's morally justifiable and in fact almost imperative for one to do so.

Then why is, for the sake of stopping a mass-murder, torturing a man who knows about an impending mass-murder any worse?

If you have the ability to use non-lethal force with a reasonable expectation of the same effect (stopping the murder of the innocent with no serious risk to yourself), you are morally required to use that non-lethal force.

For the same reason, torture is morally wrong.

Simply put, you must use the least violent, most effective means to stop the murder.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:32:55 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If it would stop him, would you kill a man who is about to murder an innocent person?

With our modern less than lethal techniques, there's no need to kill someone

If you could just yell 'stop' loud enough, surely they'd listen to you.

While you were being sarcastic you (I am sure inadvertantly) stumbled upon some truth. killing is not always necessary or right, though, I suppose it is fun to talk about in order to fluff your manhood from behind the computer screen.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:49:13 PM EDT

[#27]

Posted: 1/8/2006 3:51:51 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg

Thank you, I was looking for that.

that's what I base it on Larry G.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:08:40 PM EDT

[#29]

I don't see this as a moral decision - I am not so haughty as to believe that I am "better" than anyone else. But, I do know that I love my family and my people. There is not a million of the enemy worth one of my people.

War isn't about who's right, war is about who's left.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:11:36 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Well LT...if someone walked up to you, showed you their scars from torture, then told you it made them sing like a bird, I guess you would feel justified in calling them a liar, eh?

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:15:45 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I don't see this as a moral decision - I am not so haughty as to believe that I am "better" than anyone else. But, I do know that I love my family and my people. There is not a million of the enemy worth one of my people.

War isn't about who's right, war is about who's left.

There are some who might take issue with that
The 10 million Indians we killed
The 6 million Jews Hitler killed
The 10 million Christians Stalin killed
I think you get the point.

War is not, itself, evil, nor is it an excuse to be evil.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:17:46 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Well LT...if someone walked up to you, showed you their scars from torture, then told you it made them sing like a bird, I guess you would feel justified in calling them a liar, eh?

I think you are missing my point. Torture will make anyone sing like a bird - about anything anywhere for any reason... just to make it stop. Once you use torture, you can't really trust what that person is saying. Since time is of the essence in our little scenerio, one doesn't have time to... ah screw it, these threads are just excuses to talk big.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:18:47 PM EDT

[#33]

If they're terrorists then it's not torture.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:21:46 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
While you were being sarcastic you (I am sure inadvertantly) stumbled upon some truth. killing is not always necessary or right, though, I suppose it is fun to talk about in order to fluff your manhood from behind the computer screen.
Matt

It's not about fluffing your manhood, or whether killing is right or wrong.

It's about whether or not you think that in some situations, torture is/would be/should be justifiable. Most of the people here seem to think it is.

Again, not as a day-to-day practice (remember the thing about the French in Algeria and the Soviets in Afghanistan), but as someone else said "a tool in your toolbox".

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:23:58 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Generally, people who would do things such as kidnap are not exactly "bright" or prepared to resist any serious questioning. If left to the profesionals (law enforcement interrogators, etc), the information will flow freely - if the person knows anything at all.

I don't think that Jihadis trained in a Terrorsit camp or a Madrassa fit this category.

With normal people, the credible threat of violence is generally more effective than the violence itself.

A No-Torture policy kinda puts the kibosh on that "credible threat", no?

You'd be better off building yourself a waterboard and putting them on it. probably THE most effective means of gathering information. The media considers such a device torture, but it is hardly torture in the classical sense.

While I personally agree with you about the water board, I believe that is outlawed under the ban on torture just passed in congress. In fact, I don't think even loud music or discomfort of any sort is allowed. Please correct me if I'm wrong by citing the germane sections of law.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:25:27 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Well LT...if someone walked up to you, showed you their scars from torture, then told you it made them sing like a bird, I guess you would feel justified in calling them a liar, eh?

I think you are missing my point. Torture will make anyone sing like a bird - about anything anywhere for any reason... just to make it stop. Once you use torture, you can't really trust what that person is saying. Since time is of the essence in our little scenerio, one doesn't have time to... ah screw it, these threads are just excuses to talk big.
Matt

I think it would be interesting for you and I to share stories face to face.

We could...let's see...find a way through the .Gov red tape and find a mutually agreeable level of confidence...if that makes any sense at all.

Talk big?

A man is never so big, as when he stoops to help a boy.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:27:19 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Well LT...if someone walked up to you, showed you their scars from torture, then told you it made them sing like a bird, I guess you would feel justified in calling them a liar, eh?

I think you are missing my point. Torture will make anyone sing like a bird - about anything anywhere for any reason... just to make it stop. Once you use torture, you can't really trust what that person is saying. Since time is of the essence in our little scenerio, one doesn't have time to... ah screw it, these threads are just excuses to talk big.
Matt

Or to act like you know so much more than everyone else.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:28:43 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg

Thank you, I was looking for that.

that's what I base it on Larry G.

Like I said, paranoia. Do you have any proof that those are authentic?

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:31:06 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Well LT...if someone walked up to you, showed you their scars from torture, then told you it made them sing like a bird, I guess you would feel justified in calling them a liar, eh?

I think you are missing my point. Torture will make anyone sing like a bird - about anything anywhere for any reason... just to make it stop. Once you use torture, you can't really trust what that person is saying. Since time is of the essence in our little scenerio, one doesn't have time to... ah screw it, these threads are just excuses to talk big.
Matt

I'm still waiting for you to come out of your ivory tower and tell me about these "other methods" that work so much better.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:31:13 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Simple fact - torture doesn't work.
Matt
LT USN

Well LT...if someone walked up to you, showed you their scars from torture, then told you it made them sing like a bird, I guess you would feel justified in calling them a liar, eh?

I think you are missing my point. Torture will make anyone sing like a bird - about anything anywhere for any reason... just to make it stop. Once you use torture, you can't really trust what that person is saying. Since time is of the essence in our little scenerio, one doesn't have time to... ah screw it, these threads are just excuses to talk big.
Matt

Or to act like you know so much more than everyone else.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing

Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:31:17 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Once you use torture, you can't really trust what that person is saying.
Matt

Intel gained through torture and verified was paid with yesterdays pain.

There's always tomorrow.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:31:43 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
War isn't about who's right, war is about who's left.

There are some who might take issue with that
The 10 million Indians we killed

The 6 million Jews Hitler killed

Not a war.

The 10 million Christians Stalin killed

Not a war.

I think you get the point.

I think you are trying to tell me that you would have traded the lives of our ancestors for those of the Indians?

Plus you say you are a Lieutenant? What country do you purport to fight for? I hope not ours!

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:32:32 PM EDT

[#43]

I think that one can make moral justifications either way.

I find Torture to be horrific, however if I am faced with an Enemy that
already has a proven track record of torture and violation of International Laws of
Warfare with respect to Prisoners. Then I have no qualms about using gruesome methods
on such an enemy.

Perhaps it wouldn't involve much pain, but instead a shot in the back of the head.
Unless the enemy in question is a high value target and is suspected of having information
that can save hundreds or thousands of lives, then yes, I would condone torture.
But I would only condone it in extreme cases.

For Al Quida and other Terrorists...they don't appear to be treating their prisoners in a humane
manner, nor do they have an responsible government in which their carrying out orders.
So I don't think that they qualify being taken alive except for Intel purposes.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:42:01 PM EDT

[#44]

There are a few here that belong in the pussification of the american male thread to do some explaining. Seems you have it down to an art.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:43:23 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
War isn't about who's right, war is about who's left.

There are some who might take issue with that
The 10 million Indians we killed

The 6 million Jews Hitler killed
Not a war.
The 10 million Christians Stalin killed
Not a war.
I think you get the point.

I think you are trying to tell me that you would have traded the lives of our ancestors for those of the Indians?

Plus you say you are a Lieutenant? What country do you purport to fight for? I hope not ours!

you know, it's dangerous to disagree with the mob here whether its about morality or intelligence gathering. Some of you really do justice to the notion carried by the left that we are dangerous warmongers who will utilize any means to carry out our agenda.

This is America - I fight for THIS nation and defend its constitution - I do NOT support what you would turn it into.
Matt

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:45:27 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg

Thank you, I was looking for that.

that's what I base it on Larry G.

Like I said, paranoia. Do you have any proof that those are authentic?

If a train hit you in the face, I bet you would be doubting it's authenticity.
This pamphelt is widely circulated.
My copy was given to me by my father, an LE, who had his copy sent to him via e-mail from a friend of his.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:47:46 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
This is America - I fight for THIS nation and defend its constitution - I do NOT support what you would turn it into.
Matt

Perhaps rather than simply fighting for our constitution, you should consider fighting to save the people behind it.

PS: I wouldn't turn our country into anything.
I simply support what it has been for most of the last 225 years. (Since at least the '60s, it has been taking a turn for the worse.)

So, don't give me that Revisionist, Social Marxism crap.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:48:34 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg

Thank you, I was looking for that.

that's what I base it on Larry G.

Like I said, paranoia. Do you have any proof that those are authentic?

Well there it is, do you have proof otherwise?
I have yet to find anything to discredit it. How about you? {seriously, if you do give it}

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:49:25 PM EDT

[#49]

No secrets here...

Whaddya think you do, there LT? Just keep pounding the guys nutsack while he babbles the entire War and Peace version of the invasion plans?

Well?

Ask him a question, he refuses to answer.

You hammer his nuts, and ask the question again. The guy screams, 'the sky is blue.'

You write it down, run outside, and look up.

If the sky is blue, you skip back inside and give the guy a drink.

Proceed to next question.

If the sky is green, you strut back inside and inform him he was wrong (or not tell him he's wrong), and tell him you're gonna try the question again.

Repeat as necessary.

Yep, there is a point where the gathered info may be a plea for mercy.

But didn't you kinda jump from Step 1 to Step 49?

I read all this in Popluar Mechanics...think it was the October 1986 issue.

Posted: 1/8/2006 4:59:19 PM EDT

[#50]

This is America - I fight for THIS nation and defend its constitution - I do NOT support what you would turn it into.
Matt

I fight for this nation and it's constitution too, bub.

I do not support that "my views are different, so I'm un-American".

I do not like torture either, but I think that in some cases it can and should be used.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The torturer's dilemma (Page 2 of 4)

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