SHOTS FIRED at Border Patrol boat crew

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHOTS FIRED at Border Patrol boat crew

Posted: 1/5/2006 9:50:31 AM EDT

www.brownsvilleherald.com/ts_more.php?id=68736_0_10_0_M

Shootings against Border Patrol escalating
BY SARA INÉS CALDERÓN
The Brownsville Herald

January 5, 2006 — More than two dozen shots were fired at Border Patrol agents from across the Rio Grande on Friday and Wednesday, marking a large increase in such shootings in this sector of the border, an agency official said.

In fiscal year 2005, there were a total of six shootings, said Julio Salinas, spokesman for the Rio Grande Valley sector Border Patrol.

The shootings reported Friday and Wednesday are the sixth and seventh shootings since fiscal year began Oct. 1, officials said.

The increase in violence against agents is likely due to the effectiveness of the patrol’s enforcement, he said. The smugglers react violently to the Border Patrol’s presence, Salinas said.

“We believe it is due to operations, due to the fact that we are a threat to the narcotic or alien smugglers, and that is one of the ways they react,” he said.

On Wednesday about 7:30 p.m., about 10 shots were fired at the Border Patrol from the Mexican side of the Rio Grande near Veteran’s International Bridge at Los Tomates, said Roy Cervantes, a spokesman for the Rio Grande Valley Sector of the Border Patrol.

A Border Patrol vehicle was hit, but no one was injured, he said.

At about 7 p.m. on Friday, two Border Patrol boats carrying four agents were patrolling upriver from the Veteran’s bridge when 20 to 25 shots were fired at them from the Mexican side of the river, Salinas said.

The agents did not return fire during the shooting which was about a 1½ miles from Wednesday’s incident, and none of the four agents were hurt, he said. One of the boats was hit five times, he said.

“We don’t believe that this is a random shooting,” Salinas said. “Whoever did the shooting had to have the training or had some knowledge of how to use a firearm, because to be able to hit the boat, a moving target, five times in the cover of darkness is very difficult.”

The shooters allowed the first boat to go by with no shots fired and then fired upon the second boat, Salinas said.

Shooters on the Mexican side of the border were most likely involved in alien or drug smuggling, Salinas said.

Cameron County Sheriff Omar Lucio said his office is investigating the attack.

“We feel that perhaps these people were narcotic traffickers, and when they saw the Border Patrol, it upset their operation,” Lucio said.

The FBI is also studying the incident.

“We’re coordinating with Mexican authorities to determine who may have been the perpetrators,” said Jorge Cisneros, spokesman for the FBI in McAllen.

“The Border Patrol has had a rash of incidents here along the border,” he said. “It is obviously a big concern, since it’s escalating.”

The seven shootings involving the Border Patrol during fiscal year 2006 began are all currently still under investigation, Cisneros said

Mexico sucks!

Posted: 1/5/2006 9:57:10 AM EDT

[#1]

Send in a couple of hungry Marines with .45s and tell them they can eat after they take out the smugglers and trouble makers in Mexico, the job will be done by dinner time.

Posted: 1/5/2006 9:59:55 AM EDT

[#2]

Hey it's ok, they're just third world filthy pieces of shit, they have every right to do that, just ask Fox and Jorge Bush.

It's just another country shooting at our Federal Border agents, not like it's a crime or act of war or anything.

viva la Ameri-Mexico!!!!!!!!!

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:02:59 AM EDT

[#3]

Miagra needs a copy of this

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:06:33 AM EDT

[#4]

Time to bust out the 50 cals and pick these scumbags off before they take down one of our citizens they're already destroying vehicles.

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:11:41 AM EDT

[#5]

The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:14:21 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

Maybe they didn't have a visible target? What were they armed with at the time? A handgun may have been pointless inside a moving boat.

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:17:32 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

Maybe they didn't have a visible target? What were they armed with at the time? A handgun may have been pointless inside a moving boat.

A muzzle flash at night is usually pretty visible. I would also like to think they had nightvision as they are supposed to be looking for people, but I could be wrong.

I would imagine a patrol boat would be similar to a patrol car and would have some sort of long arm, perhaps an AR or at least a shotgun. Besides, even returning fire with a handgun would scare most people.

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:21:46 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

It happened after dark, and the shooter didn't confront them. He let them pass by and fired at them as went by. I don't know if you've ever seen the Rio Grande river bank in south Texas. The brush is pretty thick and someone can lay in and not be seen. If someone shoots at you, you shoot back. You can't shoot back at someone you didn't see.

Posted: 1/5/2006 12:53:59 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

It happened after dark, and the shooter didn't confront them. He let them pass by and fired at them as went by. I don't know if you've ever seen the Rio Grande river bank in south Texas. The brush is pretty thick and someone can lay in and not be seen. If someone shoots at you, you shoot back. You can't shoot back at someone you didn't see.

These folks have something that might help you there.

Posted: 1/5/2006 12:58:25 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

It happened after dark, and the shooter didn't confront them. He let them pass by and fired at them as went by. I don't know if you've ever seen the Rio Grande river bank in south Texas. The brush is pretty thick and someone can lay in and not be seen. If someone shoots at you, you shoot back. You can't shoot back at someone you didn't see.

Suppressive fire?
Works for me.
If you ain't shootin' back, you're just a target.

ETA: I'm pretty sure that BP is outgunned against the drug cartels and runners, so I don't fault them for laying low.

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:03:47 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

It happened after dark, and the shooter didn't confront them. He let them pass by and fired at them as went by. I don't know if you've ever seen the Rio Grande river bank in south Texas. The brush is pretty thick and someone can lay in and not be seen. If someone shoots at you, you shoot back. You can't shoot back at someone you didn't see.

These folks have something that might help you there.

So do these guys.

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:07:23 PM EDT

[#12]

I think it's more important that the agents unassed the area where they were taking fire, than returning random fire. It's hard to suppress someone if you don't know where they are, and sitting around looking for them is a bad idea.

My understanding is that in an ambush the first priority is to get off the X.

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:11:53 PM EDT

[#13]

Predator + hellfires = word being spread quick.

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:16:28 PM EDT

[#14]

they should have just shot in the general direction, it would have made a point.

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:17:24 PM EDT

[#15]

“We’re coordinating with Mexican authorities to determine who may have been the perpetrators,” said Jorge Cisneros, spokesman for the FBI in McAllen.

When will the FBI realize that they are being played?

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:17:40 PM EDT

[#16]

What are the rules of engagement for some incident like this?

Posted: 1/5/2006 1:20:08 PM EDT

[#17]

Seems the BP could use a few of these:

Posted: 1/6/2006 5:35:14 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

The Border Patrol is hiring, if you're so sure you can do a better job.

Posted: 1/6/2006 5:40:58 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
“We’re coordinating with Mexican authorities to determine who may have been the perpetrators,” said Jorge Cisneros, spokesman for the FBI in McAllen.

When will the FBI realize that they are being played?

Most likely, the perpetrators were "Mexican authorities".

Posted: 1/6/2006 5:42:47 AM EDT

[#20]

There's a strong possiblity their Rules of Engagement do not permit engaging targets not positively identified nor shooting across an international border.

Also, (as 2IDdoc pointed out) when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Posted: 1/6/2006 5:53:03 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
...when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Thats the army way.

The Marine way is to overrun the ambushers positions.

Both have their place. But in LE work I believe the Marine immediate action drill works better than retreating. I've buried a bunch of friends who were killed retreating to cover when they should have been closing ground with the bad guy and engaging. Everyone that took the fight to the bad guys has lived.

Posted: 1/6/2006 6:59:13 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
...when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Thats the army way.

The Marine way is to overrun the ambushers positions.

I've never heard of it being taught any other way. Who told you the Army teaches retreating?

"Unassing the AO" means you don't waste time in the kill zone. You don't drop & take cover to return fire. You move out. You charge the enemy's position.

The Army retreating? Who told you that?

ETA: Then again, the Army does encourage common sense & initiative. If the enemy is firing from a position behind you, you don't turn around & charge.

Posted: 1/10/2006 8:20:32 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
The agents did not return fire during the shooting

with BP pussing out on defending themselves, I am not the least bit surprised that shootings along the border are increasing. If you let them get away with it, they will only do it more

Spend a lot of time on the river do ya. There are more spots than not that he could have unloaded on the boat and they wouldn't know where the shots were coming from than the other way around. The brush is thick, there are burms, trees, mesquite, reeds, boulders. But what am I saying? You've obviously been in this exact situation before and know much better than them what the responce should have been

Posted: 1/10/2006 8:27:56 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
...when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Thats the army way.

The Marine way is to overrun the ambushers positions.

Both have their place. But in LE work I believe the Marine immediate action drill works better than retreating. I've buried a bunch of friends who were killed retreating to cover when they should have been closing ground with the bad guy and engaging. Everyone that took the fight to the bad guys has lived.

Not to mention it's a new smuggling technique.

ATTENTION MEXICANS! JUST FIRE A FEW ROUNDS OFF BEFORE ENTERING, WE WILL RUN!

Posted: 1/11/2006 6:29:22 AM EDT

[#25]

If Bill Jordan was on that boat you can bet he'd have jumped off that boat and shot the shooter between the eyes from the hip with his pistola`.

Posted: 1/11/2006 8:56:28 AM EDT

[#26]

I agree about not seeing the shooters. The Rio is maybe 50 yards across at the widest parts. Winding corners the whole way, with super thick 10 ft tall bushes and weeds on the sides. Flying above it looking for people is almost impossible, seeing them from a boat even worse.

Posted: 1/11/2006 9:02:40 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
...when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Thats the army way.

The Marine way is to overrun the ambushers positions.

I've never heard of it being taught any other way. Who told you the Army teaches retreating?

"Unassing the AO" means you don't waste time in the kill zone. You don't drop & take cover to return fire. You move out. You charge the enemy's position.

The Army retreating? Who told you that?

ETA: Then again, the Army does encourage common sense & initiative. If the enemy is firing from a position behind you, you don't turn around & charge.

+1
It's been like that for a long time!

ETA:
Are the BP foebidden to return fire?

If they are,it is a stupid rule,and those who put it in place should go out in one of their patrols!

Posted: 1/11/2006 12:30:17 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
...when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Thats the army way.

The Marine way is to overrun the ambushers positions.

I've never heard of it being taught any other way. Who told you the Army teaches retreating?

"Unassing the AO" means you don't waste time in the kill zone. You don't drop & take cover to return fire. You move out. You charge the enemy's position.

The Army retreating? Who told you that?

ETA: Then again, the Army does encourage common sense & initiative. If the enemy is firing from a position behind you, you don't turn around & charge.

+1
It's been like that for a long time!

ETA:
Are the BP foebidden to return fire?

If they are,it is a stupid rule,and those who put it in place should go out in one of their patrols!

Not forbidden to return fire. Shooting blindly into the brush with an M4 is another story. One of the things that often will play into your mind is what is behind the target. If you are being rocked from a high fence, could you shot at the guy. Yes, but if you don't hit him and that round lands on some poor kid playing in the streets in Mexico... Same thing for the brush. There could be someone laying in for doves or ducks along the River. Just things to think about before you pull the trigger. While it may seem like it sometimes, it's not a war zone, you can't just lay down fire and hope to get lucky. Anyway, just my 2 pennies.

Posted: 1/11/2006 12:37:33 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
...when you find yourself in an ambush, you unass the AO.

Thats the army way.

The Marine way is to overrun the ambushers positions.

I've never heard of it being taught any other way. Who told you the Army teaches retreating?

"Unassing the AO" means you don't waste time in the kill zone. You don't drop & take cover to return fire. You move out. You charge the enemy's position.

The Army retreating? Who told you that?

ETA: Then again, the Army does encourage common sense & initiative. If the enemy is firing from a position behind you, you don't turn around & charge.

+1
It's been like that for a long time!

ETA:
Are the BP foebidden to return fire?

If they are,it is a stupid rule,and those who put it in place should go out in one of their patrols!

Not forbidden to return fire. Shooting blindly into the brush with an M4 is another story. One of the things that often will play into your mind is what is behind the target. If you are being rocked from a high fence, could you shot at the guy. Yes, but if you don't hit him and that round lands on some poor kid playing in the streets in Mexico... Same thing for the brush. There could be someone laying in for doves or ducks along the River. Just things to think about before you pull the trigger. While it may seem like it sometimes, it's not a war zone, you can't just lay down fire and hope to get lucky. Anyway, just my 2 pennies.

It was slightly after dark, but there are always people fishing, swimming, bathing, washing clothes, or just working in the fields south of the river. North and south of the river there are neighborhoods, in someplaces a few hundred feet from the river. Shooting back is OK, but its another thing to empty a mag for suppresive fire if you can't locate the threat.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHOTS FIRED at Border Patrol boat crew

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