sorry if this has been posted before.  first time i've seen it.  darn scary stuff!

[url]news.independent.co.uk/world/europe/story.jsp?story=83462[/url]

I think it's a great idea!!

If retarded babies are aborted we wouldn't have anymore hippie liberal junkies in the world! :D

All this proves to me is that there are too many lawyers in the world...

LOL!!

This is realy a liberal CONSPERICY to rid the world of future gun owners!!![;D][:D]


Edited because thhhhhhhe hhhhhhhhhhh (damn it !) keeps sticking on my keyboard.[:D]

"They reaffirmed their ruling of last November that a child born with a grave handicap also has, under certain conditions, a right to sue a doctor failing to recommend that the foetus should be aborted. The court said that there must be a "direct causal link" between the mistakes of diagnosis made by the doctor and the birth of a seriously disabled child."

All the other rhetoric and paranoia aside,... this ruling sounds more like it concerns a doctors competence in diagnosing problems with unborn children, and in disclosing that information.

A patient should be informed of problems, all the alternatives and risks involved.  

My only beef here would be they assume the doctor should "recommend" an abortion, instead of explaining all the options and risks.  Well, that and giving someone the ability to sue a doctor for not aborting them.  That is ridiculous.

I'm having a bad keyboard day.

There is a great line in a song by Ray Bolz, [i]What Was I Supposed to Be?[/i] that always gets to me (as do most songs by Ray Bolz). It is written from the point of view of an aborted child, wondering in Heaven what he/she would have been had they been permitted to be born -



Eric The(WelcomeToTheBraveNewWorld-You'veBeenHereAllAlong)Hun[>]:)]

So basically retarded kids are sub-human and not "worthy" of life or having??

And what about black or mexican or even blond haired children??  Will they someday be regarded as inferior/retarded??

What if parents want a boy but they get pregnant with a girl, would that be a good reason for an abortion?

Ohhh wait, I got it!!  Why don't we just kill babies anytime a women gets pregnant but "feels" she isn't ready to have a baby yet!!  Yea, that's a great idea....it can be used as a form of birth control!!

Maybe we can extend the time frame of when you can abort a baby. That way when the kid is 9 or 10 and they become to much to handle we can still kill them!!  After all they aren't an adult so they realy don't have any rights yet.  Think about all the money parents could save if we just allowed them to get rid of all those useless, non-productive human leeches!!

After all, we are GODS and we can do any damn thing we want.....right???

[V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V]

sgtar15

The world gets smaller every day.  My kids are here, I want there to be way less people on the world.  Abort Away!

My wife and I have a son on the way. He has a fairly serious heart condition.
10 years ago he wouldn't have made it, but today he is going to have a 90% chance. One of the main centers is the U of M Hospitals, not all that far away.

We had a doctor at our local hospital try to hard sell us on an abortion. I mean a freaking hard sell. Then, she talked my wife into an amnio and hard selled her then, too. (I had to work, but a friend came along to buffer).

1. It's murder.
2. It's a sin.
3. We told her this a few times.

This bitch kept trying anyway, over and over.
It wasn't until we talked to the people at U of M that they told us the kid has a damn good chance, and can even do a lot of stuff in life, even low strain sports like golf.

There is, in particular among some women with advanced degrees, a religious fervor to kill babies. They just really seem to get into it. It is just sick. I had seen it in some of my classmates as a general proposition, but this was the first time I saw an individual hard sell aimed at a person.

sweep, while i'm not an extremely knowledgable christian when it comes to the Bible, i think that's a very limited way to look at that part of Scripture.  there are several other instances where the Bible tells us to go out and spread the word, help others less fortunate, be the good Samaritan, etc.  I didn't post the link to start bashing the doctors who now need to recommend abortion for self-preservation.  i posted it because it's a very small step away from eugenics.  as a Christian, all if is sacred, given us by God.  that's why Catholics are so against suicide.  it's not our place to decide who lives and who dies, whether it's our life or someone else's.

there are too many directions this kind of ruling can go, none of them positive.  so what if the doctor does recommend abortion and the parents decline?  can the child then sure the parents for not having the abortion?  will they get jail time for the exact opposite of murder?  how can any good come out of this?  it can't!

EricTheHun, what a beautiful point!

The tendency to advocate abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the gender or her possession of advanced degrees.  It has to do with the morals said person holds.  I am female with an advanced degree and will never advocate abortion for selfish reasons.  i understand your point, but that kind of generalization only serves to cause problems, rather than fix them.

A few years back there were several in depth examinations of the womens movement from the prespective of abortion. One of the primary points that kept coming up was that abortion to the liberals and fem bitches is a literal blood sacarment in which lives are flushed so to speak before they get started (you can use your own imagination as to  what person they are promoting the sacrament for). If you examine their creeds you will find that they firmly believe that abortion is the only answer to the worlds problems. Now we have the screwed up frogs who disregard life, and will accept the notion of culling prior to birth. What next, we will cull out those with black hair and green eyes, those who will not come out a certain size, those that are on a lower cultural scale. The damn frogs want to have a world wide get together to they can export their ideas.

Ok now we have genetic planning, killing of unborns who don't match what the bastards want, and a push to kill off old people. Sounds like an Orwellian plan that the common sheeple or excuse maker would never question. Perhaps they will designate those who have a touch to much testosterone in the womb as violent, and therefore worthy of death.

I therefore put forward the idea of having retrograde abortion for all feminists,liberals, gays, politicians, cross-dressers, anti-gun advocates, pussies, body piercers, tattoo freeks, nerds, and the list could go on. (I acknowledge that the foregoing is as stupid as what the frogs and the feminist groups are proposing.)

Life is precious, and who is to play God and determine what a person with a disability can or can't provide those around them. Look at the contributions of Stephen Hawkins. A child with disabilities can make a person that cares for them so much stronger, and really appreciate what they have taken for granted their whole life. Frogs and feminist are just selffish sons of bitches.

AMEN Sweep ! It means JUST THAT.
Christ will judge those outside the "Church" BUT we must judge and police those within our "Church" who profess to be Christians.
"Judge not lest ye be judged " applies to non Christians.


Edited Because I Spell Like A Heathen !

God bless you and your family Happyshooter! I truely hope your baby will be O.K. Im glad you didn't listen to the Doctor on this. Seems most of them are not following the Hippacratic oath and think nothing of practacing Dr. Kevorkian style medicine (note: I said MOST,not all)


BTW:[>]:)]Eric.The words to "What was I supposed to be" are powerfull stuff !

I recall seeing a cartoon that goes like this:

A man is looking up at heaven, and asks God, "Why haven't you sent us people to cure AIDS, stop hunger, to stop all wars, and to solve all our problems???", and God replies "I did, but you aborted them all".

Jay
Arizona

Hurrah for utilitarianism, the scourge of personal rights and freedoms... Including the right to live for those who yet without a voice to speak.

Huxley or Orwell? A little of both...

Juggernaut

In brief:

 We thought my wife had a kidney infection so we went to the local doc->hospital. They determined she might have an infection but that she was also pregnant. After they did a few tests, they claimed that the baby was dead and began a "hard sell" for "removing the tissue". Of course, my wife refused repeatedly. She told them that since this situation could resolve itself naturally, she would let God and his nature take it's course. They kept her in the hospital for a day or more while I had to keep watch on the meds they gave her. We had to prevent several meds because her pregnancy never made it into the chart (although nurse after nurse, doc after doc promised to note it and notify the next shift)! Anyway, we got fed up and I was exhausted from around the clock watch so we left the hospital. We placed her on absolute bed rest. A mutual friend of the doc's and myself came round to "explain how much money the doc gets for the procedure and how he is having a hard time right now with his malpractice suits." The now ex-friend was asked to leave.

We now have a wonderful baby girl, she is three years old. At the time of the original diagnosis, we had asked the docs if there was a possibility of two pregnancies. They said there was absolutely only one pregnancy. Well, the "good doctor" placed in my wife's medical records that she had miscarried. I tried in vain to explain to the doc what absolute bed rest was and that she was no Mary and I was no Joseph. He came close to implying that someone other than me might have fathered the baby!!! Here again, she was on strict bed rest, never alone (myself or my mother were with her constantly), she was helped to do absolutely everything until the doctors agreed that the pregnancy was progressing normally. The baby was born six days late, 8 lbs, 10 oz, 22 inches long! Definitely not a premature baby... Still, the doc insisted that the wife miscarried and conceived again (even without sexual contact!)

Since then, we have had several women come to us with their stories. Some listened to the doc and no longer have a baby, some did not listen to him and have absolutely healthy babies.

The points to me writing this are:

1) Even the medical profession doesn't know 100%
2) Some medical professionals will lie (even go against simple logic and facts) to cover their mistakes or misleading.
3) If we would have listened to their counsel, we would have never known this wonderfully bright and beautiful baby girl!


         -JmE-

(Edited for those darn typos!)

JmE, why didn't you get a second opinion?  i just listened to the most beautiful story i've heard in a long time.  but i cannot figure out why you didn't get a second opinion.  heck, get another doctor.  i never would have seen that first one again, except maybe in the courtroom.

Now don't you people know doctors are perfect?

I went to college with a lot of pre-med students. They were smart, but I would not have been a patient to any of them. The only people I felt who actually cared were the nurses in training.

Yes, we considered the courtroom, however, we try to avoid lawsuits as much as possible. After hearing from the other ladies' experiences, we regretted not escalating the matter. (Hindsight is often 20/20)

As far as a different doc, we did that. The problem is that in our town, there were only three and they were all in one practice.We went to the other doc and began explaining... he was sympathetic and agreed with our decision, then his partner (the original doc) showed up at the door to the examination room. They spoke in the hallway for a few minutes. When he returned, the second doc's attitude had really changed. He then began a "soft sell" for the originally suggested procedure (murder). We informed him that they were both lucky we weren't suing them right now. We informed him of how we wished to proceed and asked him if he would be supportive as her new doc or if we had to go the legal route (more or less, more polite and less direct). He agreed to our game plan and we were off.

There was a hitch when it came time to deliver. They tried to get us to sign consent for the first doc to deliver if he was on duty. Well, we were already in the delivery room and I was writing "REFUSED" by his name (w/ my initials and date) on every form. I honestly ended up telling them that the delivery was going through with out that doc, if he showed up I would forcably remove him from the room and deliver the child myself. I also informed them that he has a vested interest in this child not being born a-okay, so, he wasn't getting anywhere near the child.

It all worked out, he never entered the room and we were and are happy with the result.

I think only one of the three docs in that practice still have delivery, etc.. privileges. They are still the only OB/GYNs in town.

Remember, early on, we thought his diagnosis was correct, we just disagreed with his solution. It wasn't until much later (too late to move to another town for medical treatment) that we realized we were being blessed with a miracle straight from God.

              -JmE-

BTW: Talking to another Dr. is not always an easy task. Unless you know the Dr., they will side with the medical record as the truth unless you can convince them.

Yes, I am working a sideline as a medical assistant while I am applying to DO and MD schools. If accepted, I should matriculate next fall.

I have some friends that are docs, some that want to be, and some that are most of the way there and I agree w/ you 95% (5% because I don't think they are all that smart, just motivated and have time/$$ to pursue it).

              -JmE-

JmE, i agree with you right up until your "by the way" postscript.  the point is to find a doctor who will at the very least consider that there is an alternative.  and forgive me, i know that hindsight is always 20/20, but i think i would have driven 200 miles for a better doctor and then just stayed in a nice motel when time got close to delivery if that's what i had to do to stay away from those doctors.  but it's so easy to judge, isn't it?  i am glad every thing has worked out well.  and i hope that you never have to experience anything so awful and horrifying again.

I understand your apprehension regarding us not going to another town. However, at the time we had three children and barely enough money to keep things moving along (I needed to continue to work as my wife was/is a homemaker). Going to another town was not an option. We did the next best thing, we went to another doc in the same town. I must clarify that we did not go back to the original "doc", not even for a second! The second doc reluctantly played it our way. For the most part, we treated my wife ourselves and the new doc was on "standby", so to speak.

That was the best we could do in the "real world" situation as it was...

         -JmE-

BTW: (on the previous BTW) What I have observed is that medical professionals will side primarily with what is in the medical record even if they are from different towns/areas. It has just been a basic observation that I have made time and time again. When the patient has information that contradicts what a Dr. has written in the medical record, the patient has to work awfully hard to get the Dr. to consider that the info is wrong. I am referring to things like miscarriages, etc... That was what my previous "BTW" was about.

(edited to add a BTW)

I just ran across this article this morning and thought of your concerns about eugenics.

I think it applies.


[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/584617.asp?0si=-[/url]

"The doctors worked with a New York couple in which the dad had developed cancer at age 2 and then again at 31."

I wonder if the father considered what might have happened to him if this technology and the desire to use it existed before he was born. I wonder if he would have opted to be killed instead of being born. After all, he did develop cancer at age 2 and again at age 31, right? How might the thought of himself not being born sit with him? I assume the cancer was treated and he lived some sort of quality life in spite of his genetic propensity for the disease...

(my $.02 worth)

             -JmE-