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Posted: 6/16/2001 6:02:41 PM EDT
[#1]
nice pics, good quality too
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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:10:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Is that a Tiger Tank? Can't be too many of those left. Why do they have a tarp over the barrel? Any aircraft pics?
It might be just my imagination, but doesn't that 82nd Airborne dude remind you of Jerry Lewis? [thinking] |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:19:37 PM EDT
[#3]
I thought there were something like 8 Tiger I's left with only 1 in running condition, in private hands anyway.
I didn't think the US mounted .50's on jeeps, if you fire to the side the recoil is to much for the jeep. Cool pictures, thanx for sharing |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:37:52 PM EDT
[#4]
I didn't think the US mounted .50's on jeeps, if you fire to the side the recoil is to much for the jeep. Cool pictures, thanx for sharing You mean the Rat Patrol wasn't real! [;)] |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:44:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: I didn't think the US mounted .50's on jeeps, if you fire to the side the recoil is to much for the jeep. Cool pictures, thanx for sharing You mean the Rat Patrol wasn't real! [;)] Well ya, the Rat Patrol was....... I thought .30's were the way to go on jeeps. Bigger vehicles got bigger guns tho'. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:53:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Another observation: How would you like to be a crew member on the Sherman, going up against that Tiger! Man, those guys must have had iron nuts.That Sherman looks like a Tonka Toy in comparison. [xx(]
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Posted: 6/16/2001 8:58:53 PM EDT
[#7]
1354 was total production on Tiger I's
60,000(IIRC) total production on Shermans Plus the Germans didn't have an effective air force by the time the US showed up. But the US had the US Army Air Force, they got support when they needed it. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 9:17:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:(: Plus the Germans didn't have an effective air force by the time the US showed up. But the US had the US Army Air Force, they got support when they needed it. Very true. Those Typhoons and Thunderbolts sure did a heck of a job. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 9:35:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:(: Quoted: I didn't think the US mounted .50's on jeeps, if you fire to the side the recoil is to much for the jeep. Cool pictures, thanx for sharing You mean the Rat Patrol wasn't real! [;)] Well ya, the Rat Patrol was....... I thought .30's were the way to go on jeeps. Bigger vehicles got bigger guns tho'. Can't ever remember seeing a .50 on a jeep but we had a 106 recoiless rifle on a jeep in Nam. It had a .50 spotter barrel attached to it, zeroed to the 106 point of aim. Fire a tracer with the .50 and if it hit close to the bad guys then fire the 106. Never seen either on used. Not really made for the jungle. Obsolete now.[rail] |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 9:49:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Can't ever remember seeing a .50 on a jeep but we had a 106 recoiless rifle on a jeep in Nam. It had a .50 spotter barrel attached to it, zeroed to the 106 point of aim. Fire a tracer with the .50 and if it hit close to the bad guys then fire the 106. Never seen either on used. Not really made for the jungle. Obsolete now.[rail] What was the minimum(safe) distance for that backblast? Effective range of the 106? |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 9:52:28 PM EDT
[#11]
[img]http://www.ecis.com/~weasel/temp/German%20Tiger%2001.jpg[/img] Rosie's body guards! |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 10:03:39 PM EDT
[#12]
[img]http://www.ecis.com/~weasel/temp/German%20Tiger%2001.jpg[/img]
Please, unless your buying, don't touch the tank. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 10:27:37 PM EDT
[#13]
That guy on the right... "You there, where are your papers?"
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Posted: 6/16/2001 10:31:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Yep, the sign said it was a Panzer VI Tiger Tank. Should have read the rest of it...
If any of you are in the Bay Area, the air show is running Sunday the 17th as well. 9am-5pm at Travis AFB in Fairfield. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 10:35:38 PM EDT
[#15]
hey Pete! I was also there today and took my son (he loved the F/A-18 and the B-1B....great show, but I did not see you.
I enjoyed the armor as well. Give me a ring on Monday when you get a chance. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 10:38:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Originally Posted By DVD Tracker: That guy on the right... "You there, where are your papers?" Good one...[:)] Is that lady in the background trying to strangle herself? [>:/] |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 11:02:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: hey Pete! I was also there today and took my son (he loved the F/A-18 and the B-1B....great show, but I did not see you. I enjoyed the armor as well. Give me a ring on Monday when you get a chance. I left before the Hornet did its demo, but I've been to lots of airshows and seen it before. Ask Troy how loud the B-1 is with full afterburner... [:)] I'll give you a ring on Monday. |
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Posted: 6/16/2001 11:30:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Nice shots.. Thanks for sharing them. Didn't know there were any Tigers still in existence outside a museum. Is that one a Hollywood re-made one? Any how.. Cool !
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Posted: 6/17/2001 2:15:54 AM EDT
[#19]
I've done a little re-enacting (RevWar, CivWar, WWI, WWII). I just wonder about the mind-set of Americans who voluntarily dress-up as, and assume the identities of the enemies of freedom, such as Redcoats and Nazis. The ones I've spoken with seemed, well, a little unusual. Thanks for the pics!
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Posted: 6/17/2001 2:46:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Nonetheless, the Sherman was a death trap. The numbers you've mentioned illustrate that the allied strategy was simply to outproduce the Nazis, the tank crews were expendable.
Additionally, there were different versions of the Tiger. The best way to deal with a Tiger was to avoid it, I'm told. Which was fairly easy to do--it just kept getting bigger and slower as the war went on(Hitler kept micromanaging the plans).Eventually, it became a slow, direct fire artillery platform for the 88. Great for defense, but, as you've noted, helpless against air power (and fast moving infantry). It couldn't move fast enough to hide or get out of its own way. The German tank to watch out for was the Panther. It was relatively agile, well enough armored, with a superb gun, and could pick off Shermans all day. Plus the Germans didn't have an effective air force by the time the US showed up. But the US had the US Army Air Force, they got support when they needed it.[/quote] |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 2:55:05 AM EDT
[#21]
1354 Tiger I's in all the minor variations
450 Tiger II's (appx) In all the minor variations 6,000 Panthers (IIRC) in all the variations 60,000 Shermans in all the variations. Plus most of the German war effort was against the Russians who had ton's of tanks. |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 3:18:28 AM EDT
[#22]
No argument with the Nazis, but the Redcoats? Jeez. [thinking]
Remember that you're looking at the American Revolution through 20/20 hindsight. At the time, fully one-third of the population felt the the revolution was a descent into mob rule, stage-managed by people like Sam Adams (whose ONLY skill was being a professional troublemaker and sloganeer. This would make the rebels a THREAT to their British freedoms and everything that they held sacred. Governor Hutchinson, the frequent target of Adams' mob violence, once stated that he'd rather be ruled over by one tyrant 3000 miles away than 3000 tyrants next door. They burned his house down and threatened his family. After the war, there was a witch hunt. Tories had property confiscated and were forced into mass-migration to places like Nova Scotia. Furthermore, the last thing the architects of the Revolution wanted was taxation with representation. They wanted NO taxation and, admittedly, the Brits out. The revolution, as a truly democratic social experiment, IMHO, evolved as the war went on and postions hardened. It also has evolved as an idea ever since. You could say that your posting is a manifestation of that evolution's capacity to continue. As Americans, we are ever self defining. Don't tell any of my Irish relatives that I said this, but the Brits weren't the enemies of freedom. At least not at the beginning--and maybe not even at the end. The loyalists had a humane, defensible case. The Nazis didn't. Quoted: I just wonder about the mind-set of Americans who voluntarily dress-up as, and assume the identities of the enemies of freedom, such as Redcoats and Nazis. |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 3:21:00 AM EDT
[#23]
The .50 doesent have any recoil - it just sorta shakes - Crap a Ma Duece weighs about 100 lbs. Wont flip a jeep - no way [heavy] |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 3:37:12 AM EDT
[#24]
No, it won't flip it. The jeep is a narrow track, top heavy to start with, the weight of the .50 BMG would make it more so. The size of the .50 would make it tough to manage. If you moved it 90 deg. left or right and fire a burst it would "rock" the jeep. That would make it very difficult to fire accurately. The military felt the rocking was managable with a .30. Plus no one would use the jeep as an "assault truck". it was probably used more for scouting, convoy protection etc. They probably fel the .30 had enough punch for those type of missions.
I was a '60 gunner when I was in the Army 83-86, and had a jeep mount for the '60. I asked why we couldn't just put a .50 on instead during AIT, some E-8, E-9 said that was a bad idea due to the recoil. I think he may have "been in the know". |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 3:43:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Thats some nice old stuff, but did you guys get to see the two Joint Strike Fighter prototype aircraft at the airshow? I'm not talking about mock-ups, I mean the actual two planes the US Navy is evaluating to determine which one will be the one aircraft for all the armed services. Sometimes living near the Navy's Test Pilot School and one of the biggest R&D bases sure helps for seeing interesting stuff on the flight-line.
Kharn |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 3:56:04 AM EDT
[#26]
Number Six, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Read the Declaration of Independence for a list of the grievances the Colonists had against the Brits, for starters. Do these things sound just and humane? Is it defensible for occupying British and Hessian mercenaries to strip the lands around Newport RI of crops and firewood until Aquidneck Island was a wasteland? Is it humane to stable horses and draft animals in churches, synagogues, and colonial government buildings? If the Tories had a good case, why were they only 1/3 of the population? Could it be that they benefited from the status quo, and resisted change because it threatened their privileged position? Finally, if the Brit's cause was a just one, why was there so much opposition to the War in Britain itself? Why did the freedom-loving Brits import Hessian mercenaries to help with the suppression of the Revolution? I live not 500 yds from the site of the Battle of Rhode Island, and closer by far to Hessian Hole, where hundreds of dead jack-booted thugs (the original ones) were interred in a mass grave after the battle. The humane Brits couldn't even decently bury their own hirelings. I respect your right to have a differing opinion, but I don't agree with you. No flame intended.
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Posted: 6/17/2001 7:00:26 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: I just wonder about the mind-set of Americans who voluntarily dress-up as, and assume the identities of the enemies of freedom, such as Redcoats and Nazis. The GI reenactor in the picture above was explaining to those kids how those Germans on the Tiger next to him were just a fighting unit - no deathcamp Nazi stuff. Then he went on to explain that the head dress they are wearing is accurate. The German tankers didn't use helmets, while the US did (see the helmet in his hand). |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 7:17:47 AM EDT
[#28]
DVD Tracker: No offense, but aren't the German re-enactors wearing uniforms with swastika patches? If those Landsers in the front lines hadn't invaded, pillaged, and raped their way throughout most of Europe, the Death Camps might never have been possible. Not a flame.
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Posted: 6/17/2001 7:21:26 AM EDT
[#29]
***Plus most of the German war effort was against the Russians who had ton's of tanks.
Most of the Russian's tanks (and trucks and jeeps and a large percentage of their aircraft) were made in the USA, a fact the Russians do not readily acknowledge. US Merchant Marine had a 90% loss rate on ships making the "Murmansk Run" to deliver this stuff through the end of 1943 or so. The old Soviet Union may have done the lion's share of the fighting in Europe during WWII, but they were doing it with American weapons. |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 8:10:49 AM EDT
[#30]
Hate to say this but,i think that is BS, natez
All the T34s and PE2s and the rest of their tanks and planes made domestically do not count you say. May i ask where you got these figures |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 8:21:20 AM EDT
[#31]
They built: SU-76(24,000), SU-85(3,800), SU-100(3,300), SU-122(1,100), SU-152(704), ISU 122/152(4,075) tank destroyers.
And: BT-2-BT-8(8,000), T-26(14,000), T-34(35,000), T-34/85(20,000), KV-1(5,000) Joe Stalin I(100), Joe Stalin II(7,500), and Joe Stalin III(350) tanks. And: IL-2, IL-2M, I-16, Yak Fighter, LaGG-3, and La-5 fighter/bombers. We did send them 2000 M-4 Shermans, 1386 M3M Lee's(coffin for 7 comrades),and 1084 Matilda MkII's, under Lend-Lease. They made most of their own tanks. They had few domestic trucks, they did have their own version of the jeep(rare). We did send them trucks like crazy. We were the only country that had close to enough. We also sent a lot of half-tracks. Most of the planes we gave them were P-40's and P-39's because we were through with them. 90% loss is not accurate, there were some convoy's that got crushed thanx to Tripitz, Scharnhorst, Gniesanau(sp), and Admiral Hipper. More than a few got through unscathed. And in checking the US made 49,000 total Shermans. |
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Posted: 6/17/2001 11:05:31 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: DVD Tracker: No offense, but aren't the German re-enactors wearing uniforms with swastika patches? If those Landsers in the front lines hadn't invaded, pillaged, and raped their way throughout most of Europe, the Death Camps might never have been possible. Not a flame. Didn't take it as one. Just paraphrasing what the Gi was saying... |
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Posted: 6/18/2001 2:18:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Just remembered... They had a white Acura NSX on display and there was an NRA sticker in the back window.
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Posted: 6/18/2001 2:36:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Originally Posted By DVD Tracker: Quoted: I just wonder about the mind-set of Americans who voluntarily dress-up as, and assume the identities of the enemies of freedom, such as Redcoats and Nazis. The GI reenactor in the picture above was explaining to those kids how those Germans on the Tiger next to him were just a fighting unit - no deathcamp Nazi stuff. Then he went on to explain that the head dress they are wearing is accurate. The German tankers didn't use helmets, while the US did (see the helmet in his hand). So you all would prefer to destroy everything that had to do with Nazi Germany during WWII??? There are plenty of people who collect uniforms and artifacts from WWII Germany partially because so much of it WAS destroyed after the war. Unfortunately, the GI bring-homes are really the only wholesale surviving products that made it home and they should be treasured. Whoever actually owns a Tiger tank must have a HUGE wallet. I didn't think those things made it past the scrap melt downs that occurred after the war. Does anyone know of any good websites that deal with WWII collections off hand? |
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Posted: 6/18/2001 4:21:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Bohica, I never said that Nazi stuff should be destroyed. Please read all my posts in this thread. As a matter of fact, I collect US militaria, but not Nazi items. As I said I have a problem understanding the psychology of individuals who voluntarily don Nazi uniforms, wear them in public, and pretend to be Nazi soldiers. I've talked to a few of them, politely I might add, and the usual spiel from them is that they're just portraying average Germans fighting for their country. They forget that the WWII German soldier swore an oath to obey, fight for, and if need be die for the Fuhrer, NOT Germany. I hope you'll understand.
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Posted: 6/18/2001 11:25:52 PM EDT
[#36]
I see the "SS" lightning stripes on the collar tabs. I have no problem with wearing apropriate uniform, and tabs to be a re-enactor. But, IIRC the Tiger I/II's were not assigned to SS units, they were assigned to "independent" heavy tank battalions. They were used like fire fighters, they went where the fires were. Panthers were assigned on a division level including to SS. I guess I would wonder why they would were "SS" insignia if they are potraying a Tiger crew. Unless the Tiger owner needed some re-enacators and they were available. Just wondering
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