Slight update...


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6255918/

A commanding general has ordered the unit to undergo a “safety-maintenance stand down,” during which it will conduct no further missions as the unit’s vehicles are inspected, the military said.


I knew the military would have these problems with a reserve and nation guard force.

Save a penny spend a dollar thinking at it's best.


The need to go regular army all the way.

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Quoted:
deliver pink fuckin panties to the Iraqi cheerleader team


Hell, I'll put my life on the line any day of the week for some pink pantied cheerleaders
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But only if you can post pics?


ummmmm lets see...................I want to volunteer for the panty delivery too........h.gif

Quoted: A commanding general has ordered the unit to undergo a “safety-maintenance stand down,” during which it will conduct no further missions as the unit’s vehicles are inspected, the military said. I knew the military would have these problems with a reserve and nation guard force. Save a penny spend a dollar thinking at it's best. The need to go regular army all the way.

Pretty broad brush ya got there Cy.  No unit has a patent on poor judgement.

Quoted: Slight update... www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6255918/

The mission was ultimately carried out by other soldiers from the 343rd, which has at least 120 soldiers, the military said.

Court Martial them. We can let this sort of thing go unpunished, or the Military will come apart. Seems others of the same unit had no problem carrying out the orders.

How many times in the history of this nation were members of the armed forces ordered to undertake a "dangerous" or "suicidal" mission?

I say if their vehicles were deadlined, it was the unit's fault for not fixing them.

I say if they weren't capable of fighting with their rifles, it was their fault.

I say if they were delivering contaminated fuel, it was probably their fault. Petroleum products float. Drain the fucking water off the bottom and deliver the FUCKING fuel.

I say they fucked up and pretty much the only people responsible for it were themselves.

Quoted: Quoted: A commanding general has ordered the unit to undergo a “safety-maintenance stand down,” during which it will conduct no further missions as the unit’s vehicles are inspected, the military said. I knew the military would have these problems with a reserve and nation guard force. Save a penny spend a dollar thinking at it's best. The need to go regular army all the way. Pretty broad brush ya got there Cy. No unit has a patent on poor judgement.

I know there are many many fine folks in those units for sure.

I just remember the RIF's when I was in and saw many career  soldiers -- flushed because of the "new and better idea"

I'm curious how this went from 'what constitutes a deadline which would legally prohibit a mission being carried out' through 'It's because there are women it the unit'.

I have my opinions on the latter, but don't see the correlation.

I say if their vehicles were deadlined, it was the unit's fault for not fixing them.

There's a limit as to what you can do with what you have. For example, the Army in its infinite wisdom, sent my unit out here without -30 level support. If the company's mechanics can't fix it, (and it's not that uncommon), there's nothing much to be done about it except send it to -40 level and hope that they get around to dealing with it. Our tanks, which are running 600 miles a month instead of the designed 600 miles a year are being run so ragged that we haven't been able to get them their required 6-month servicing. We're running on borrowed time. Perhaps this unit's vehicles reached the end of that time already?

These guys and gals have been there since February, through the worst of it in April, but they are only refusing to go on a mission now? There is definitely something more to this story.

Well, we'll see what happens.

NTM

Court Marshal them…

If they are innocent or have a valid defence they will be cleared…

If however they were just 'yellow' at the idea of getting shot at, then they should get 25 years for mutiny in the face of the Enemy (or what ever the Charge would be under  the USMJ)…

I'm being a bit hardcore here, maybe, but when I was at the sharp end the rule was simple… Obey the Order, or face the consequences. The people at the Sharp End need the fuel, as a fuel truck driver your job is to deliver it… or did they think that fuel trucks are not a target in a war?

Andy

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A commanding general has ordered the unit to undergo a “safety-maintenance stand down,” during which it will conduct no further missions as the unit’s vehicles are inspected, the military said. I knew the military would have these problems with a reserve and nation guard force. Save a penny spend a dollar thinking at it's best. The need to go regular army all the way. Pretty broad brush ya got there Cy. No unit has a patent on poor judgement. I know there are many many fine folks in those units for sure. I just remember the RIF's when I was in and saw many career  soldiers -- flushed because of the "new and better idea"

Thanks - I understand better now and agree.  We're all just a dot somewhere on the learning curve and chopping off the upper part of the learning curve is always done by someone lower down on that curve.

<EDIT> Not trying to say all us old-farts automatically know more but at least we've had a little longer to learn more.

Maybe I'm trying to roll too much up in one package but y'all are right - the training & experience part sure plays a big part in something like this too.

Before any of you guys judge, make sure you have walked a mile in their shoes....

Quoted: I have only one life.  I won't give it away because of someone ELSE's INCOMPETENCE.

Then the military is probably not for you.

Quoted: It didn't sound to me like this was an URGENT mission.

What business do enlisted men have deciding what mission is "URGENT" or not?

I didn't read all 15 pages, but I have some thoughts on this. My unit, IMEF Transportation Support Group, drove more than 3 million miles in 5 months over there. Our convoy teams sustained several serious attacks and numerous minor ambushes. None of them ever refused to drive for any reason. Several times they were resupplying Infantry units that were engaged in combat. Many of us volunteered to drive in the convoys, and eventually, everyone in my unit(From the CO down) either rode security or drove a truck in a northbound convoy. I don't have much sympathy for someone who refuses an order because of minor concerns for their own safety.

Quoted: I didn't read all 15 pages, but I have some thoughts on this. My unit, IMEF Transportation Support Group, drove more than 3 million miles in 5 months over there. Our convoy teams sustained several serious attacks and numerous minor ambushes. None of them ever refused to drive for any reason. Several times they were resupplying Infantry units that were engaged in combat. Many of us volunteered to drive in the convoys, and eventually, everyone in my unit(From the CO down) either rode security or drove a truck in a northbound convoy. I don't have much sympathy for someone who refuses an order because of minor concerns for their own safety.

Thank you for your selfless service.

Quoted: This whole thing stinks, especially the timing of it all.

+1

Alll I have to add is that I couldn't live with myself if I did something like this.


SGatr15

The bottom line is ... when you enlist in the military you are giving up YOUR right to decide what actions are to be taken. You listen to the higher ups, you do what you're told, and you do it to the best of your abilities. You're a team player. There is no I in team.

Every single mission over there could potentially be deadly. Squatting to take a piss could get you killed. (and shut up! i'm a woman so I squat!) You can't have a bunch of soldiers, no matter their rank, taking it upon themselves to accept or decline missions. You can't say "Well, we don't want to go to Kabul today, but we *will* go to Baghdad instead." It's not a freaking choice.

From what my dad told me ... missions are pretty cut and dried. You're given an order, you do it, and you do it well. You don't argue the semantics. He was in Vietnam and he was ordered to jump out of a plane where there was hostile fire. He said you could feel bullets whizzing past your head as you plummeted toward the ground, but he still did it and he was screaming and shooting the entire way down. Another time they were in a swampy area and there was a local snake there called the "two step" because it would bite you, you'd take two steps, and then fall down dead. The swampy area was crawling with leeches and those snakes. You could see them all over the place. My dad was terrified of snakes and threw up about four times before his commanding officer came over and told him literally "to get your balls in hand, soldier, and march your ass through that water before you wind up floating there. We don't have time for this shit!"

My dad "got his balls in hand" and marched through that water. My dad would tell you that he came out of that swamp a better man because he conquered something worse than the actual enemy ... he conquered the enemy inside of himself ... that little voice that tells you that you can't.

With all that being said ... I don't know what I would have done in this situation. It's possible that I would have had no choice but to stand with my platoon ... or maybe I would have stood up to them and said I was going with or without them. Or maybe it would have been my idea not to go at all.  I don't know what they were facing so I can't judge it.

All I know is this ... war is deadly. War is hard and cruel and not neccessarily fair to everyone involved ... but if you take it upon yourself to defy orders and not do as you are instructed then you're setting a precedent that doesn't need to be set. And you're hurting other people who depend on you.

Here is a link to there and my home town paper.
www.heraldonline.com/front/story/4116774p-3882367c.html

Quoted: You guys are all assholes!! You didnt wait for me to come out and play, now i have like 10 new PAGES to go through. Anyways, I love all the Military badasses thinking their hot shit because they get shot at. Because, people only get shot at and die in WAR ZONES. And until I have more information on that article (The soldiers who refused orders) I wont comment again on that article but will continue to stand by my decision. And that is all. Now, all you big bad soldiers can play badass cause you've been in a "hot zone" and God knows a civilian could NEVER be in a bad situation............ But rest assured, when shit gets hot I can handle myself, probably better then most. Bank on that shit fellas. And lastly, I dont play PC games anymore, except for the occasional Weboggle. And sometimes Mario Kart or Sim City on those really rainy days.

How telling....

Im suprised this thread hasn't been locked yet.

As for the topic....you sign up to do a job, you do it. right or wrong, with the tools they give you. That's it.

Quoted: A commanding general has ordered the unit to undergo a “safety-maintenance stand down,” during which it will conduct no further missions as the unit’s vehicles are inspected, the military said. I knew the military would have these problems with a reserve and nation guard force. Save a penny spend a dollar thinking at it's best. The need to go regular army all the way.

OK, now your starting to come really, really close to insulting myself and my soldiers, and have no clue what your talking about.

all 16 are bitches and not just the real bitches!

First and most importantly we dont have all the facts on this incident, I do know the following though, Women in a Combat zone is a receipe for disaster, Most reserve units are not trained to RA standards nor are they equipped as they should be, a good percentage of reserves did join for college money ect , alot of reserve units have moral problems. The Political decision to rely so heavily on our Reserve and Guard units is proving to be mistake. Enlistments in NG and Reserve units is down and retirements are up. I dont pretend to have the answers to these problems but if the "War on terror" lasts as long as it appears it will, someone in Washington is going to need the balls to make some hard choices concerning our military. My War was a long time ago ( 39 yrs ) but I do know of somethings that have not changed, enlisted troops do not get to vote on the mission, if your wearing the uniform then do your job. Where would we be if troops had the right to veto a mission because it was to dangerous?  I was 11B and with out the courage and committment of a whole lotta REMFer's I'd be dead. There were alot of places in Vietnam that were not safe to run convoys but the troops did it regardless. Its a FUCKING COMBAT ZONE so you do your job and if you buy the farm thats the way it goes.
                                                                Before the flames start regarding the NG and Reserves, I do know that there are exceptions to the above. My opinions are based on the communication from my best friend who just spent 15 months in Iraq with an NG MP Company, the last 4 months escorting convoys as an E7 platoon Sgt. He spent most of his time over there dealing with Female and minority moral and complaint problems. The vast majority of his Co did not want to be there and performed as such. The Officer's were of poor quality with sub standard leadership. He was called to account many times for being to hard on the troops ( for trying to train them to high standards ) My buddie is a former RA with 6 active in the 18th Abn Corp and this shit just about drove him nuts. By the way the biggest problems he had were far and away with the females. Point of all this being that by relying on NG and Reserves and being Politically correct for the girls this type of incident is what we can expect in our Armed Forces now and in the future.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It didn't sound to me like this was an URGENT mission. What business do enlisted men have deciding what mission is "URGENT" or not? absolutely none. I am not taking up for them i just not going to pass judgement at this time. For an ENTIRE PLATOON to refuse an order there has to be a MAJOR problem that has not yet been reported. A good NCO has a duty to protect his troops. The mission is a priority to be sure but a "suicide" mission over stupidity could be a legit reason. There are TONS of reasons this could have occured. Cowardice is not the only one. Battle fatigue, incompetant command, Seriously damaged/broken equipment etc.. If this fuel had been needed to reinforce a firefight i wonder what these guys would have done. There is a MAJOR difference between a routine supply run and an emergency. I am more inclined to blame the command for this issue than the soldiers..... UNTIL it is proven it was an act of cowardice. mike

I think you and I are somewhat on the same track. A good NCO will protect his troops, but I still am willing to bed this was a case where they had the opposite, piss poor NCO leadership that poisioned the whole platoon, and a company leadership that failed by not seeing it untill it got this far.

Quoted: Now I had to decide whether or not to have the guy who wouldn't go arrested. I thought about it for a while and then let it go. Not everyone is suited for combat operations of the up close and personal kind. If a person just can't do it, just let it go. What purpose does it serve to make it an issue?

First off, thank you for your service.  I am a former Marine so I am not speaking from my experience on this keyboard, but I disagree respectfully and wholeheartedly.  If you allow something like this to go unpunished, you have opened a door to a whole new level of insolence and disobedience from everyone else in the unit.  The discipline needed in a fighting unit needs to be unquestionable.  I for one want to know without a doubt that the guy fighting next to me will be willing to jump out of his hole under heavy fire with me when given the order, considering every instinct in his body is telling him otherwise.  I also see no distinction in what the job is.  I don't think it matters if they are in Motor Transport, Military Police, Admin., Infantry, or Recon.  They are a Marine or Soldier first and foremost.  The discipline must be kept  in order to have an effective fighting force.  These soldiers need to be dealt with swiftly, as well does their CO.

Something that we had to say at Parris Island almost daily....

D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.... discipline is the instant, willing, obedience to ALL orders, respect for authority, teamwork.

Not a flame intended, and I'm glad things worked out for you...

Ahh saw this in the update:

The platoon has troops from Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi and South Carolina.

That platoon was cobbled together with IRR and cross leveld troops as 88M and 77F are very high demand MOS's right now.

When a unit gets troops cross leveled immediatley before a deployment, you have to integrate them into the unit fully and really work on building that bond and cohesion bewteen all memebers of the unit.

Some units succed at this, some fail miserably. The worst thing you can do is group all you new people in one squad or platoon. Eventually you end up with two groups, the old unit and the new arrivals who feel like outcasts and feel they keep getting shit on. I see that brewing here.

FWIW I may know some mechanics who were cross leveled into this unit, I will find out if they are there and what they know. I do know that any USAR unit in Rock Hill will use the AMSA (Area Maintenance Support Activity) in Charlotte NC, which is one of the best shops in the whole reserve system. I can assure that when they left they had equipment that was 100%

Quoted: First off, thank you for your service.  I am a former Marine so I am not speaking from my experience on this keyboard, but I disagree respectfully and wholeheartedly.  If you allow something like this to go unpunished, you have opened a door to a whole new level of insolence and disobedience from everyone else in the unit.  The discipline needed in a fighting unit needs to be unquestionable.  I for one want to know without a doubt that the guy fighting next to me will be willing to jump out of his hole under heavy fire with me when given the order, considering every instinct in his body is telling him otherwise.  I also see no distinction in what the job is.  I don't think it matters if they are in Motor Transport, Military Police, Admin., Infantry, or Recon.  They are a Marine or Soldier first and foremost.  The discipline must be kept  in order to have an effective fighting force.  These soldiers need to be dealt with swiftly, as well does their CO. Something that we had to say at Parris Island almost daily.... D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.... discipline is the instant, willing, obedience to ALL orders, respect for authority, teamwork. Not a flame intended, and I'm glad things worked out for you...

Yes, and gives the next guy who decides he just doesn't want to go out on patrol a defense, policy by repetition.

At MCRD San Diego it was, "Discipline is, the instant obedience to ALL orders, sir""

Semper Fi

Edited for spelling

Quoted: Ahh saw this in the update: The platoon has troops from Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi and South Carolina. That platoon was cobbled together with IRR and cross leveld troops as 88M and 77F are very high demand MOS's right now. When a unit gets troops cross leveled immediatley before a deployment, you have to integrate them into the unit fully and really work on building that bond and cohesion bewteen all memebers of the unit. Some units succed at this, some fail miserably. The worst thing you can do is group all you new people in one squad or platoon. Eventually you end up with two groups, the old unit and the new arrivals who feel like outcasts and feel they keep getting shit on. I see that brewing here. FWIW I may know some mechanics who were cross leveled into this unit, I will find out if they are there and what they know. I do know that any USAR unit in Rock Hill will use the AMSA (Area Maintenance Support Activity) in Charlotte NC, which is one of the best shops in the whole reserve system. I can assure that when they left they had equipment that was 100%

And, that, boils down to NCO leadership, or the lack of.

Specdope_007 – there was a saying in the British Army of the 19th century that a soldier had, “seen an elephant.”  The meaning behind this was a person could talk all the smack they wanted, but until they had seen an elephant (meaning been in combat) it was all nothing but talk.  From your talk you would not last but a few moments in a real situation.  Sure, you might be able to handle yourself better than most, but there is no such thing as an “army of one”.  You need to be able to depend on those around you to cover your back.  When you demonstrate you lack of willingness to be a team player you will find yourself awfully alone.

For all those that agree that those soldiers did the right thing, and it is ok to question orders, here is an example of why that is not acceptable.  

Late in the Vietnam War some AF and Navy fighter units were given missions that made no sense.  They were ordered to fly routes and hit targets in such a way that they would be highlighted to enemy anti aircraft fire.  They were ordered to use poor tactics, and fly stupid.  Fortunately they carried out the mission to the best of their ability.

Here is why.  The real mission, which because of security they could not be told, was to divert enemy attention, and suppress enemy defenses so a group of special forces could rescue POWs.  This was the Son Tay raid.  If the pilots had not carried out their mission as ordered good men would have died.  Obviously not every mission is like this, but you never know.  The CINC is not obligated to share the strategic plan with every Colonel and Private.

For the record, I have no delusions of being some sort of super soldier.  By most definitions I’m a REMF.  I don’t have to like my job, but I do have to do it.  

Almost all the vehicles we used daily were deadline vehicles. We would patch them up to the best of our abilities and drive on. I was up around Taji alot also, when I was there it was dangerouse but not as bad as most places. I have had to sit on overpasses and main roads and set up defensive positions because one of our vehicles bit the dust on us in rout more than once. Fuck it, you still have a job to do.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But rest assured, when shit gets hot I can handle myself, probably better then most. Bank on that shit fellas. LOL, you fucking tool.     Doesnt bothe rme. I rightly give about 2 rat fucks what you, AND EVERYONE ELSE, thinks of me or mine. In other words, you can call me a Jerry Springer white trash cracker fucker bucktoothed tool ass pussy liberal snatch eating faggotmonger for all I care. In fact, see if you can beat that. Go! Of course, no more toolicious then all the GI Joe's running around acting like Gods gift to the world.....

Who in the Holy Hell let this asshole in here....Mods..Bitch slap please!!!

People who have never served and opining on this situation makes about as much sense as me giving my ideas on nuclear physics.  "I'm not a nuclear physicist, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night".

With all of the fighting we are just going around in circles.

We are not a review board. We are fighting over the twisted facts of the media.

Nobody knows what the real circumstances were over there at the time of this. I say quit the damn fighting (on this thread) and let the review board figure out who is in the wrong.

That being said..... This situation would have to be massively fucked in many ways to justify what these solders did. But I won't judge them.......  Let them be judged by the facts and by a board who knows them.

Oh and IBTL.

JIM

Quoted: With all of the fighting we are just going around in circles. We are not a review board. We are fighting over the twisted facts of the media. Nobody knows what the real circumstances were over there at the time of this. I say quit the damn fighting (on this thread) and let the review board figure out who is in the wrong. That being said..... This situation would have to be massively fucked in many ways to justify what these solders did. But I won't judge them.......  Let them be judged by the facts and by a board who knows them. Oh and IBTL. JIM

Good advice.  Somewhere, around page 5, I think it transgressed into military principal and doctrine with those who have never served.  I hope we're able to learn more about this whole debacle.  

Yeah I skipped around allot...... 16 pages...shit!

JIM

This has turned into a pissing match.  Locked.