Price gouging question - Page 2

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Posted: 8/18/2004 6:28:16 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
You have the right to say no thanks, they move on to the next person and you move on to the next arborist.

i would accept your reasonable estimate with kind acceptance and a healthy tip.

i would reject your high estimate with a polite refusal.

I WOULD MEET YOUR ATTEMPT AT EXTORTION WITH A HARD RIGHT CROSS TO YOUR JAW.

wrap extortion, taking advantage of folks and thievery in your 'capitalism' flag all you want. try flying that flag in my face and you will get exactly what you deserve.

I'm just not sure where this hostility is coming from?
A guy says, I'll cut your tree for $10K. You laugh and
tell him to get off your property. How is this different
than a H2 dealership charging $40K for what amounts
to a body kit? Would you give the dealer a "right cross"
because you feel that the H2 should only cost $20K?

If you take the emotions out of the argument and just
focus on the fact that the pricing is based on what the
market will bear, then maybe you'll see that your outrage
is misplaced.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:29:44 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
That's the problem. "Reaosnable" is a subjective value judgment.

no it isn't. there is an price range for everything.

No, there really isn't. THere is what you are willingto pay, and there is what someone else is willing to pay.

When you bought a house, did you look at house outside your qability to afford? DId you demand (at the point of violence) that the owner take your offer, as you thought it was fair?

WHen you buy a car, do you demand that the dealer sell it to you at what you consider a fair price? Or do you walk when the dealer does not come down?

WHen you buy a gallon of milk, do you offer the grocer what youy think is a fair value for the milk, or do you buyit as priced?

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:31:53 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
That's the problem. "Reaosnable" is a subjective value judgment.

no it isn't. there is an price range for everything.

Consier the things that affect "reasonable" -

1. What were the arborsits costs to mobilize all his equipment and personnel?? Having had trees cut down myself, it can be in the thousands of $$

the costs did not increase 10x or 20x over. sure they went up, but you are defending extortion...not an increase in market pricing.

2. What other business opportunities did he forego to come see you?? there IS such a thing called "opportunity cost" which EVERY businessman knows up close and personal

sounds like you are referring to just plain old "opportunism"...known also as extortion.

3. you used the term "normally" this would ahve cost $500 - 1,000. Newsflash - this situation AIN'T normal.

more newsflash: a 10x or 20x price increase isn't normal.

4. Ever consider the fact that HE is prolly being "price gouged" by the gas stations, hotels, restautrants, etc etc etc that are his business costs? He DOES have to apy expenses to stay in business ya know.

ever consider that the guy is just a lowlife shitstain thief? no fucking shit his expenses are going to increase. sadly, his reputation is going to shrink in direct proportion to his price gouging.

he can buy another chainsaw.

he can't buy his reputation back.

5. What special permits (read: tax on businesses) were required by gov't to operate under these conditions (Boortz JUST did an example of special permits gov't requires in these circumstances)

i think you're grasping at staws here.

it's a tree. on a house. it isn't a high pressure gas main repair located in the downtown financial district.

feel free to pul more rabbits out of your hat, though.

6. What is his insurance company charging him to operate in a hurricane zone, with dozens of unique threats and difficulties?? I've seen workers comp bills put arborists OUT OF BUSINESS under "normal" circumstances.

must be a southern thing. aborists up here pay minimum wage and do really high tech shit like...oh...cut wood.

7. Isn't he entitled to "hazard pay" for being away from his family for possibly weeks at a time, working 20 hour days, with bitchy people like you who shove a rifle barrel up his ass?

no. why? in 2 more days thousands of UNPAID volunteers from churches across america will be arriving there to lend assistance at little or no cost.

if ANYTHING drives a shitstain extortionist out of business, i would hope to hell it would be a devout christian with a big stihl in his right left hand and a neighborly right hand extended to the poor shmuck with a tree thru his house.

Wow, no concept at all of economics, nor even an interest in learning. No problem. Have a good one.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:32:38 AM EDT

[#4]

There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:33:42 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Classic time/value equation Sweep. Any of these naysayers take even one economics course? (or own their own business?)

When people call me for pricing of sweeping their chimney, I keep a running total of how many people accept my prices. If I start averaging 5 out of 5 people accepting my prices, I raise them. If I'm averaging 4 out 5, I keep them where thay are. If it ever starts to average 3 out of 5 I'll lower them but so far I've never had to do that.

Exactly. you are following pretty close to the 80/20 rule, whcih anyone in business will do, or they won't be in business long.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:35:59 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

OK, now you have two families, both have starving babies, all things being equal other than one has the ability to pay, the other does not, who gets the formula?

This is the crux of our argument. Distribution of resources and a time/value for labor.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:36:29 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
That's the problem. "Reaosnable" is a subjective value judgment.

no it isn't. there is an price range for everything.

Not at all. The price is what people are willing
to pay. PERIOD.

Consier the things that affect "reasonable" -

1. What were the arborsits costs to mobilize all his equipment and personnel?? Having had trees cut down myself, it can be in the thousands of $$

the costs did not increase 10x or 20x over. sure they went up, but you are defending extortion...not an increase in market pricing.

How is this extortion? Were you forced to take his
offer? What is stopping you from borrowing a chainsaw,
or using an axe, or finding someone else?

2. What other business opportunities did he forego to come see you?? there IS such a thing called "opportunity cost" which EVERY businessman knows up close and personal

sounds like you are referring to just plain old "opportunism"...known also as ~~extortion~~capitalism.

Fix it for you.

3. you used the term "normally" this would ahve cost $500 - 1,000. Newsflash - this situation AIN'T normal.

more newsflash: a 10x or 20x price increase isn't normal.

Too bad. Don't live in FLA.

4. Ever consider the fact that HE is prolly being "price gouged" by the gas stations, hotels, restautrants, etc etc etc that are his business costs? He DOES have to apy expenses to stay in business ya know.

ever consider that the guy is just a lowlife shitstain thief? no fucking shit his expenses are going to increase. sadly, his reputation is going to shrink in direct proportion to his price gouging.

Which is the reason why I said that preditory pricing is
"bad business".

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:38:41 AM EDT

[#8]

CampyBob, you just don't understand the concepts involved here, Read GarandMans fine explanation. It might open your eyes.

yeah...whatever.

Kinda sad that an otherwise upstanding, intelligent person such as yourself can be so deluded in this matter.

i'm intellegent enough to know how to manage the bottom line and upstanding enough to know i never want to be involved in extortion.

deluded? i guess if money matters that much to you, you can call me deluded.

i can at look myself in the mirror when i shave in the morning and like the man i see.

i've owned my own company and managed one for years and years. i hope to god to die never having treated a customer the way you are suggesting in this thread. my father raised me to be a honest man. not some lowlife.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:40:23 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

OK, now you have two families, both have starving babies, all things being equal other than one has the ability to pay, the other does not, who gets the formula?

This is the crux of our argument. Distribution of resources and a time/value for labor.

So, are you saying that one baby deserves to die because the parents can't afford your exorbitant prices?

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:40:29 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
CampyBob, you just don't understand the concepts involved here, Read GarandMans fine explanation. It might open your eyes.

yeah...whatever.

Kinda sad that an otherwise upstanding, intelligent person such as yourself can be so deluded in this matter.

i'm intellegent enough to know how to manage the bottom line and upstanding enough to know i never want to be involved in extortion.

deluded? i guess if money matters that much to you, you can call me deluded.

i can at look myself in the mirror when i shave in the morning and like the man i see.

i've owned my own company and managed one for years and years. i hope to god to die never having treated a customer the way you are suggesting in this thread. my father raised me to be a honest man. not some lowlife.

I have 300 families that rely on me to put food on their tables, mortgage payments made, car payments made, etc. You are saying that I am a lowlife for looking out for them?

Fair enough. I'll take the label if you feel the need to use it.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:40:46 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

the costs did not increase 10x or 20x over. sure they went up, but you are defending extortion...not an increase in market pricing.

Costs accumualate. Mobilization costs are JUST ONE factor.

sounds like you are referring to just plain old "opportunism"...known also as extortion.

First year college economics courses can explain opportunity costs to you. Every non-senile ecomonist recognizes "opportunity cost" as legitimate. If you don't thats your choice.

more newsflash: a 10x or 20x price increase isn't normal.

Yes it does. As I said the several extraordinary costs accumulate.

ever consider that the guy is just a lowlife shitstain thief? no fucking shit his expenses are going to increase. sadly, his reputation is going to shrink in direct proportion to his price gouging.

He will NOT HAVE a business if he doesn't offset the prices he pays as an expense of being in business.

t buy his reputation back.

You need to PICK an argument- Is he a ruthless opportunist, or is he a fool running his own business into the ground, jeopardizing his own opportunity to future chances to extort ???

you're grasping at staws here.

it's a tree. on a house. it isn't a high pressure gas main repair located in the downtown financial district.

feel free to pul more rabbits out of your hat, though.

Boortz's example was business licenses required to sell generators. MUCH less complex and dangerous than tree removal.

a southern thing. aborists up here pay minimum wage and do really high tech shit like...oh...cut wood.

Proving you know NOTHING of the business of arborist

no. why? cuz in two more days thousands of UNPAID volunteers from churches across america will be arriving there to lend assistance at little or no cost.

Those volunteers are NOT depending on cutting trees to make a living. They are taking VACATION time from their ACTUAL job. You SERIOPUSLY are equating vounteer work with a legitimate business???

I supose you think the arborist should DONATE his equipment and time in a "voluneteer" fashion.

if ANYTHING drives a shitstain extortionist out of business, i would hope to hell it would be a devout christian with a big stihl in his right left hand and a neighborly right hand extended to the poor shmuck with a tree thru his house.

Those people don't make their living doing free labor. They have OTHER jobs. Jobs where other people think THEY are "price gouging."

Free labor is NOT a reliable means for you to get trees off your house. The arborist is. There is a PRICE TO PAY to have readily avaialble arborists, rather than hoping some nice people will come along and help you. It sounds to me you want to abuse the kindness os the volunteer rather than pay the costs the arborist has, as you've show you really don't know what those costs are.

As a CPA with several arborist businesses as clients in the past, and several arborist friends right now, I do.

Yer a smart guy. You are WRONG here. It happens. Accept it. Move on with your life.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:41:21 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

OK, now you have two families, both have starving babies, all things being equal other than one has the ability to pay, the other does not, who gets the formula?

This is the crux of our argument. Distribution of resources and a time/value for labor.

So, are you saying that one baby deserves to die because the parents can't afford your exorbitant prices?

No I am asking you to whom the formula goes to, all things being equal, the ones who pay or th eones who don't, you have tomake the decision.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:41:55 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

OK, now you have two families, both have starving babies, all things being equal other than one has the ability to pay, the other does not, who gets the formula?

This is the crux of our argument. Distribution of resources and a time/value for labor.

All things being equal? I split the formula and I get my ass out there looking for more so neither of them dies. If that is not an option than I random it and accept no compensation for either. You see, I can't put a price on life. I would sooner go penniless the rest of my days than make a quick buck off of someone's suffering and having to carry that burden for the rest of my days. You make valid points my friend, but they apply more to the day to day world than they do under exigent circumstances.

And while you talk a good game my friend, I'm gonna call bullshit and say if faced with the situation you described of two families both needing it you would probably give it to them to split while you had a case airlifted in at your expense... you big softee. and you wouldn't accept a stinkin nickle from either of them.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:43:48 AM EDT

[#14]

I'm just not sure where this hostility is coming from?

well then, let me spell it out for you in big, easy to read letters...

I DESPISE, THIEVES, RIP OFF ARTISTS, CON MEN AND THOSE THAT PREY ON THE MISFORTUNE OF OTHERS.

i WILL simply laugh at an out of line offer and move on.

however, you come trolling around me with blatant extortion while i'm on the ropes...well, you might just find out what i really think...whether you wanted to know or not.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:51:26 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

OK, now you have two families, both have starving babies, all things being equal other than one has the ability to pay, the other does not, who gets the formula?

This is the crux of our argument. Distribution of resources and a time/value for labor.

All things being equal? I split the formula and I get my ass out there looking for more so neither of them dies. If that is not an option than I random it and accept no compensation for either. You see, I can't put a price on life. I would sooner go penniless the rest of my days than make a quick buck off of someone's suffering and having to carry that burden for the rest of my days. You make valid points my friend, but they apply more to the day to day world than they do under exigent circumstances.

And while you talk a good game my friend, I'm gonna call bullshit and say if faced with the situation you described of two families both needing it you would probably give it to them to split while you had a case airlifted in at your expense... you big softee. and you wouldn't accept a stinkin nickle from either of them.

We are talking in the abstract here, sort of like in a university classroom, and as such, we have to assume that the one bottle of fomula is make or break for the person who initially owns it, and it is of course make or break for the people who need it.

At that point, with the person selling it needing the compensation for the bottle of formula, does he give it away or does he sell it at what the market will bear? His family is depending on the mopney the formula can bring in to survive also. I think either the free market works, or it doesn't, the gray area people want ot bring in (Ethics andmorality) have no real place in capatilism, and that is one of the complaints ost heard about the system.

WHat is the opourtunity cost of giving the formula away, and how does it affect the entire system? Might you giving the formula to the firtst family who says they need it actually hinder a multitude of other familes? Might the person whom you did not give the formula to actively search out an alternative, and finding that alternative help more than his own family?

Ethics, morality. Sheesh.

Posted: 8/18/2004 6:56:29 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a difference between chimney relinings and baby formula for a starving infant. In an emergency such as this there are luxuries, conveniences and absolute necessities. When you are talking about food and water for sustenance and survival you enter a different realm. Hell, not only do I support anti-price gouging laws under these narrow circumstances, I would go so far as to support criminal charges for those who had the ability to provide emergency supplies and refused because somebody couldn't pay an exorbitant mark-up. Baby is on the verge of dying due to dehydration, the parent has no ability to get to emergency facilities, the police can't get to the parents because roads are flooded and that was even assuming you could get ahold of them by phone... You happen to have a case of pedialite, but will only sell it for $100 a bottle and the parents can't afford it... baby ends up dying. I would have no problem with you facing manslaughter charges for depraved indifference. But hey, at least you won't have to worry about your next meal... you'll get three a day for many years to come if I got my way.

OK, now you have two families, both have starving babies, all things being equal other than one has the ability to pay, the other does not, who gets the formula?

This is the crux of our argument. Distribution of resources and a time/value for labor.

So, are you saying that one baby deserves to die because the parents can't afford your exorbitant prices?

Okay, say your are only going to charge what you paid for it. There's only one bottle left that will keep one of the two babies alive for another day or so. They both have the money to pay you for it. Who do you sell it to?

Honestly, I don't think anyone here wouldn't just give the bottle to the first one that asked, but this does make a good debate.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:01:02 AM EDT

[#17]

Good try, Hielo, but you might as well try convincing a stump to pull himself out of the ground and go to school.

It isn't going to happen. Ecomomics has not been properly taught in this country for many many years, and even back in my Grandfather's time, economics was seriously misunderstood by the populace. I was one of the lucky ones. The not-so-lucky would be remiss if they didn't try to educate themselves.

Stupidity is a disease. And I would type more, but there is business to be done. There is an opportunity cost to posting on AR15.com it would seem.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:01:30 AM EDT

[#18]

This is a simple thing really -

People want capitalism and the free market to drive prices down for things they WANT, but don't need.

And people want socialism (big gov't) to drive prices down for things they need.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:05:21 AM EDT

[#19]

I have 300 families that rely on me to put food on their tables, mortgage payments made, car payments made, etc. You are saying that I am a lowlife for looking out for them?

nope. not at all.

i AM saying that ANY man that brokers extortion is.

we could debate what is or is not extortion til the cows come home and never agree on the definition.

needless to say, if a man has a tree on his house after a hurricane and some guy comes up with a magical price that is 10x or 20x yesterday's price...well, that's good enough for me to call it extortion.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:07:16 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Stupidity is a disease. And I would type more, but there is business to be done. There is an opportunity cost to posting on AR15.com it would seem.

Damn, you got that right, Google IPO imminent.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:08:49 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
I have 300 families that rely on me to put food on their tables, mortgage payments made, car payments made, etc. You are saying that I am a lowlife for looking out for them?

nope. not at all.

i AM saying that ANY man that brokers extortion is.

we could debate what is or is not extortion til the cows come home and never agree on the definition.

needless to say, if a man has a tree on his house after a hurricane and some guy comes up with a magical price that is 10x or 20x yesterday's price...well, that's good enough for me to call it extortion.

Sure you can call it that, but your neighbor, who wants the tree off his house right now doesn''t. Shouldn't your neihbor have the oppurtunity to engage in a bussiness transaction that he finds agreeable?

Is any of this getting through?

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:11:24 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
It isn't going to happen. Ecomomics has not been properly taught in this country for many many years, and even back in my Grandfather's time, economics was seriously misunderstood by the populace. I was one of the lucky ones. The not-so-lucky would be remiss if they didn't try to educate themselves.

I remember hearing a story about Harry Truman getting briefed by an economist.

He told Truman that the economy was going to improve the following year. When Truman restated what he had said, "So you're telling me the economy is going to improve next year because of so and so?"

The economist replied, "Well, on the other hand, this and this could happen and the economy could get worse."

Then Truman said, "Sounds like what this country needs is a good one handed economist."

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:13:00 AM EDT

[#23]

The problem is this. Economic theories such as Capitalism in its purest form must exist in a vacuum to be fully realized. You must divorce emotion and ethics from the equation. Here is the problem, in order to do that you must take what makes us human away from the equation as well.

Lets say there is one bottle of formula left. It is in a vending machine that accepts bids for the bottle. The machine is programmed to accept the highest bid with no other consideration. Fine, that can be achieved easily enough. The issue is can a human being divorce ethics, morality and emotion from the equation? The vending machine has no conscience, it will feel nothing if one baby dies and another lives. Neither can we question the honor of the decision arrived at by the machine.

You and I are not machines. We have to make choices and we have to live with them. If you are capable of making a choice to sell it to the highest bidder no matter the circumstances than I am left to question your character. How about this. All things are not equal. I have a bottle of water. Hielo is mildly thirsty and offers me $1,000 for the bottle of water. Campy is severly dehydrated and on the vergo of kidney failure, and btw Campy has no money. If I follow Hielo's proposal I sell it to him for $1,000 because the market will bear it... and if Campy dies, well he can rest assured that at least he played a role in keeping capitalism alive and well in its purest forum right?

And don't come back at me with an explanation well in that case its different because Hielo didn't need it and Campy did... remember from earlier posts... ethics and morality have no place in this conversation. Just who can pay more.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:15:08 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
needless to say, if a man has a tree on his house after a hurricane and some guy comes up with a magical price that is 10x or 20x yesterday's price...well, that's good enough for me to call it extortion.

Sure you can call it that, but your neighbor, who wants the tree off his house right now doesn''t. Shouldn't your neihbor have the oppurtunity to engage in a bussiness transaction that he finds agreeable?

Is any of this getting through?

And with someone else charging $12,000 for the same size tree on a similar house, our $10,000 friend has just had "opportunity cost" zapp him for $2,000.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:18:36 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
The problem is this. Economic theories such as Capitalism in its purest form must exist in a vacuum to be fully realized. You must divorce emotion and ethics from the equation. Here is the problem, in order to do that you must take what makes us human away from the equation as well.

Lets say there is one bottle of formula left. It is in a vending machine that accepts bids for the bottle. The machine is programmed to accept the highest bid with no other consideration. Fine, that can be achieved easily enough. The issue is can a human being divorce ethics, morality and emotion from the equation? The vending machine has no conscience, it will feel nothing if one baby dies and another lives. Neither can we question the honor of the decision arrived at by the machine.

You and I are not machines. We have to make choices and we have to live with them. If you are capable of making a choice to sell it to the highest bidder no matter the circumstances than I am left to question your character. How about this. All things are not equal. I have a bottle of water. Hielo is mildly thirsty and offers me $1,000 for the bottle of water. Campy is severly dehydrated and on the vergo of kidney failure, and btw Campy has no money. If I follow Hielo's proposal I sell it to him for $1,000 because the market will bear it... and if Campy dies, well he can rest assured that at least he played a role in keeping capitalism alive and well in its purest forum right?

And don't come back at me with an explanation well in that case its different because Hielo didn't need it and Campy did... remember from earlier posts... ethics and morality have no place in this conversation. Just who can pay more.

But you leave off the costs you have with that one bottle of water, we can also I gather leave off the value equation of keeping me alive over Campy <s>. Since we are getting into hypotheticals, two loan sharks have your wife nad children with a gun to their heads, if they don't get their $1000.00 right the fuck now, they are all dead.

Is campys life, in the abstract that we are talking here worth their lives?

(And this highlights why this will not be answered here. And why there needs to be an unencumbered free market).

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:21:22 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
needless to say, if a man has a tree on his house after a hurricane and some guy comes up with a magical price that is 10x or 20x yesterday's price...well, that's good enough for me to call it extortion.

Sure you can call it that, but your neighbor, who wants the tree off his house right now doesn''t. Shouldn't your neihbor have the oppurtunity to engage in a bussiness transaction that he finds agreeable?

Is any of this getting through?

And with someone else charging $12,000 for the same size tree on a similar house, our $10,000 friend has just had "opportunity cost" zapp him for $2,000.

Exactly, your neighbor has saved $2000.00 that he would have happily paid, as he wanted the tree of right now. The free market at work. All is good, except for campy who doesn't mind waiting for th eweek or ten day sto get the tree off of his house. He is unhappy because everyopne else decided that getting the trees off their houses was worth the 10-12k. And they won't let him use the toilet becuase of his uncouth behiavor, vis-a-vis stuffing his weapon up everyones ass.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:21:42 AM EDT

[#27]

Shouldn't your neihbor have the oppurtunity to engage in a bussiness transaction that he finds agreeable?

sure he should. his money. his life.

just like the guy with the saw. it is his saw. his is the right to set the price.

Is any of this getting through?

5 by 5.

mine is the right to accept, decline, laugh at you or leave a heel print on your ass.

your reasonable offer is rewarded by my reasonable response.

your unreasonable offer is met with declination.

your attempt at robbery sans pistol is met with something entirely appropriate.

that is how my 'no havard mba needed' brand of capitalism works.

are we clear on that?

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:22:04 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
How about this. All things are not equal. I have a bottle of water. Hielo is mildly thirsty and offers me $1,000 for the bottle of water. Campy is severly dehydrated and on the vergo of kidney failure, and btw Campy has no money. If I follow Hielo's proposal I sell it to him for $1,000 because the market will bear it... and if Campy dies, well he can rest assured that at least he played a role in keeping capitalism alive and well in its purest forum right?

.

No one seems to have a problem with that concept when its evolution we are discussing and not capitalism.

"That's just the way it is...."

Capitalism has its down sides. But it beats the heck out fo the next best thing.

Capitalism drives out of business the less efficient - YES, putting the busness owners poor family out of their home and leaving them with no food, and cold in the snow.

But it also produces better technology (with the profit incentive) and lower prices for everyone.

ANYTHING will look bad if you focus on the negative (a FAVORITE trick of gun banners) But capitalism has an exponentially larger upside.

What you choose to focus on says more about your individual bias (or mine) than it does about capitalism

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:25:23 AM EDT

[#29]

damn...i must know nothing of this 'capitalism' thing.

i was just awarded a p.o. for a sweet design and build package.

fuck! i knew i should have bid it higher!

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:27:32 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
How about this. All things are not equal. I have a bottle of water. Hielo is mildly thirsty and offers me $1,000 for the bottle of water. Campy is severly dehydrated and on the vergo of kidney failure, and btw Campy has no money. If I follow Hielo's proposal I sell it to him for $1,000 because the market will bear it... and if Campy dies, well he can rest assured that at least he played a role in keeping capitalism alive and well in its purest forum right?

.

Also, your example is personal bottle of water.

Consider someone in the BUSINESS of selling water, in an environment like the hurricane area.

Go ahead and give your bottle of water to Campy. Then you have NOTHING with which to buy more water. 300 other people out there are JUST AS BAD as Campy - ready to die of dehydration.

You can buy no more water, and they can't get water at ANY price. SO you saved one, and killed 300.

Aren't you a decent fellow???

Wanna do more hypotheticals? These are FUN!!!!!!!!

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:28:35 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Shouldn't your neihbor have the oppurtunity to engage in a bussiness transaction that he finds agreeable?

sure he should. his money. his life.

just like the guy with the saw. it is his saw. his is the right to set the price.

Is any of this getting through?

5 by 5.

mine is the right to accept, decline, laugh at you or leave a heel print on your ass.

your reasonable offer is rewarded by my reasonable response.

your unreasonable offer is met with declination.

your attempt at robbery sans pistol is met with something entirely appropriate.

that is how my 'no havard mba needed' brand of capitalism works.

are we clear on that?

No, I am afraid I am slow, but maybe you can explain where you get the right to physically harm someone because you do not like a price you are offered? Doesn't your dissatsifaction with a price end when you say no thank you, or are you somehow entitled to go further and punish someone for imagined transgressions also?

WHat about your neighbor (again), who woudl have been happy and eager to pay the asking price, but now has lost th e oppurtunity because you have injured the arborist? What right of redress does your neihgbor have?

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:34:21 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
How about this. All things are not equal. I have a bottle of water. Hielo is mildly thirsty and offers me $1,000 for the bottle of water. Campy is severly dehydrated and on the vergo of kidney failure, and btw Campy has no money. If I follow Hielo's proposal I sell it to him for $1,000 because the market will bear it... and if Campy dies, well he can rest assured that at least he played a role in keeping capitalism alive and well in its purest forum right?

.

Also, your example is personal bottle of water.

Consider someone in the BUSINESS of selling water, in an environment like the hurricane area.

Go ahead and give your bottle of water to Campy. Then you have NOTHING with which to buy more water. 300 other people out there are JUST AS BAD as Campy - ready to die of dehydration.

You can buy no more water, and they can't get water at ANY price. SO you saved one, and killed 300.

Aren't you a decent fellow???

Wanna do more hypotheticals? These are FUN!!!!!!!!

No one is saying that the person must give it away or sell it without being able to recoup expenditures, or even make a profit. The question arises in the ethics department and should one be able to simply increase the price 20 fold for basic survival items in a disaster area just because he can. Not because he needs that price to restock, just because he can.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:36:46 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How about this. All things are not equal. I have a bottle of water. Hielo is mildly thirsty and offers me $1,000 for the bottle of water. Campy is severly dehydrated and on the vergo of kidney failure, and btw Campy has no money. If I follow Hielo's proposal I sell it to him for $1,000 because the market will bear it... and if Campy dies, well he can rest assured that at least he played a role in keeping capitalism alive and well in its purest forum right?

.

Also, your example is personal bottle of water.

Consider someone in the BUSINESS of selling water, in an environment like the hurricane area.

Go ahead and give your bottle of water to Campy. Then you have NOTHING with which to buy more water. 300 other people out there are JUST AS BAD as Campy - ready to die of dehydration.

You can buy no more water, and they can't get water at ANY price. SO you saved one, and killed 300.

Aren't you a decent fellow???

Wanna do more hypotheticals? These are FUN!!!!!!!!

No one is saying that the person must give it away or sell it without being able to recoup expenditures, or even make a profit. The question arises in the ethics department and should one be able to simply increase the price 20 fold for basic survival items in a disaster area just because he can. Not because he needs that price to restock, just because he can.

A business person who does not maximize profit, at every oppurtunity is doing a disservice to his customers. Plain and simple.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:38:08 AM EDT

[#34]

I don't think anyone in this thread knows the ins and outs of removing a tree safely from someone's house. Perhaps the 10 G's was warranted. Maybe there was some safety/structural issues that had to be addressed. Maybe the arborist had to cancel a big contract to satisfy a homeowner's timeframe. Maybe the homeowner has a very expensive house with a very big tree sitting over a very expensive room.

Maybe there's too much generalization in here.

MAYBE.... capitalism is like darwinism...and is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. Wait, didn't someone already say that on page 1?

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:39:16 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I don't think anyone in this thread knows the ins and outs of removing a tree safely from someone's house. Perhaps the 10 G's was warranted. Maybe there was some safety/structural issues that had to be addressed. Maybe the arborist had to cancel a big contract to satisfy a homeowner's timeframe. Maybe the homeowner has a very expensive house with a very big tree sitting over a very expensive room.

Maybe there's too much generalization in here.

MAYBE.... capitalism is like darwinism...and is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. Wait, didn't someone already say that on page 1?

And on the following pages. Just trying to bring the slower up to speed.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:39:17 AM EDT

[#36]

back in the early 1850's during the California gold rush era, they did the same thing, it was "supply and demend" gold miners would pay $5.00 just for a couple of eggs and that was very expensive for 1850, the people that got rich were the businessmen that sold all the stuff to the miners, very few of the miners became rich

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:39:33 AM EDT

[#37]

No, I have been very clear that I favor unrestricted capitalism except in the most limited of circumstances. Everyone seems to want to argue from the seller's side. So I ask you to humor me and put yourself on the buyer's side.

Your home was devastated by Charley. You took precautions, the storm wasn't supposed to hit your area with full force, but you prepared nonetheless. You have food, water, ice in coolers, a generator in case you lose power. You're good to go. Lord knows you have enough firepower to chase off any troublemakers. Well the storm redirects and rips the roof off your house, scatters everything to the winds, you and your wife and baby were lucky to survive. Power is out, phone lines are done, roads are flooded... besides, Campy's tree just fell on your truck, its not going anywhere with that cracked engine block. Your newborn baby is dehydrated, hungry and you have no potable water or formula and mom for whatever reason can not breast feed. I come along and happen to have a can of formula and a couple gallons of water on me. I don't need them, happen to have them. Don't need the money either. You ask if I can help. Sensing a chance at profit I mention that I happen to have what you need, what do you have? You tell me you have nothing of value, everything has been destroyed, you can't get to the bank... won't I please help you. Sure, I could... but I did pay something and you have nothing... so if I give them to you I actually suffer a loss... and perhaps there is even an opportunity cost for surely there is somebody down the road somewhere who needs it as well and can pay. So I tell you, wish I could help... I see you are in need, but we live in a Capitalist system and you have nothing to offer, so I must kindly decline. Good luck to you.

I go on my way. The next day I come back through and see you and your wife on whats left of your porch crying. I stop and ask what's wrong. You tell me through clenched teeth that your child died in the night and I could have prevented it by giving you the formula mix and water. I look at you indifferently, because remember emotions and ethics have no place in this transaction, and say well I wish I could have helped, but there could have been somebody down the road who could have paid more. Sadly I did not find anyone, so I guess I'll just take my formula and go home... good day to you. Man, I hope at that point you would put a bullet in the back of my head.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:40:27 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I love capatilism, supply and demand are the way it should always work.

What we have in Florida right now is socalism. People will approve of it though, even people who would not normally approve of it.

A shame, isn't it?

Why is it that I always have the brilliant ideas AFTER the opportunity passes?
A few truckloads of chainsaws transported to the disaster area and sold for my costs plus 5%, undercutting all the price gougers.
Dammit!

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:40:46 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
back in the early 1850's during the California gold rush era, they did the same thing, it was "supply and demend" gold miners would pay $5.00 just for a couple of eggs and that was very expensive for 1850, the people that got rich were the businessmen that sold all the stuff to the miners, very few of the miners became rich

Which goes to show, the real business dueing the gold rush was not gold, it was in providing supplies to the people who wanted to search for gold. Works for me, how about you?

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:41:53 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I love capatilism, supply and demand are the way it should always work.

What we have in Florida right now is socalism. People will approve of it though, even people who would not normally approve of it.

A shame, isn't it?
Why is it that I always have the brilliant ideas AFTER the opportunity passes?
A few truckloads of chainsaws transported to the disaster area and sold for my costs plus 5%, undercutting all the price gougers.
Dammit!

Free Enterprise In Motion!

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:42:11 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I love capatilism, supply and demand are the way it should always work.

What we have in Florida right now is socalism. People will approve of it though, even people who would not normally approve of it.

A shame, isn't it?
Why is it that I always have the brilliant ideas AFTER the opportunity passes?
A few truckloads of chainsaws transported to the disaster area and sold for my costs plus 5%, undercutting all the price gougers.
Dammit!

You wouldn't be able to afford to rent the truck at those prices, nor any of the other expense you would find.

I woudl like to have gotten a truck load down there a day before and marked at 1000% over cost, now that woudl have been an oppurtunity.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:42:36 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
back in the early 1850's during the California gold rush era, they did the same thing, it was "supply and demend" gold miners would pay $5.00 just for a couple of eggs and that was very expensive for 1850, the people that got rich were the businessmen that sold all the stuff to the miners, very few of the miners became rich

Which goes to show, the real business dueing the gold rush was not gold, it was in providing supplies to the people who wanted to search for gold. Works for me, how about you?

Someone has to set the t able for dinner

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:42:42 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

No one is saying that the person must give it away or sell it without being able to recoup expenditures, or even make a profit. The question arises in the ethics department and should one be able to simply increase the price 20 fold for basic survival items in a disaster area just because he can. Not because he needs that price to restock, just because he can.

And as I ALREADY stated....

The appropriate price for that bottle of water is NOT what it cost historically.

The appropriate price is what it costs to get the NEXT bottle of water, so they can STAY IN BUSINESS and CONTINUE selling water. If there is a shortage of water for consumers, that means there is ALSO a shortage of water for retailers, meaning his costs increased. Exponentially, likely.(that mean by a factor of 20x, for those fo you in Rio Lindo

)

You want him to stay in business right? Or do you want him to kill off his business, and harm all his future customers??

I find it IMMENSELY unethical for him to conduct his business in sucha fashion that he end up going out of business.

Fact is, in a fluid environment like a hurricane area, SIMPLY by operating there he is taking a risk to the continuation of his busniess.

Better you simply say "Thank you " for being here than criticize the way in which he seeks to meet your needs.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:43:41 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I love capatilism, supply and demand are the way it should always work.

What we have in Florida right now is socalism. People will approve of it though, even people who would not normally approve of it.

A shame, isn't it?
Why is it that I always have the brilliant ideas AFTER the opportunity passes?
A few truckloads of chainsaws transported to the disaster area and sold for my costs plus 5%, undercutting all the price gougers.
Dammit!

You wouldn't be able to afford to rent the truck at those prices, nor any of the other expense you would find.

I woudl like to have gotten a truck load down there a day before and marked at 1000% over cost, now that woudl have been an oppurtunity.

This is Texas. I have access to plenty of trucks that I wouldn't have to pay for

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:45:03 AM EDT

[#45]

No, I am afraid I am slow, but maybe you can explain where you get the right to physically harm someone because you do not like a price you are offered? Doesn't your dissatsifaction with a price end when you say no thank you, or are you somehow entitled to go further and punish someone for imagined transgressions also?

yes, you are doing a damn fine job at ACTING slow.

WHat about your neighbor (again), who woudl have been happy and eager to pay the asking price, but now has lost th e oppurtunity because you have injured the arborist? What right of redress does your neihgbor have?

my neighbor has the right to do as he damn well pleases. in this 'free market economy' and given the level of stupidy i run across in life and factoring in the lack of spine shown i would say his best option would be to file suit. isn't that the 'new' american way? of course...i don't hold a harvard mba...

one bruised ass ain't gonna stop a good con man, i'm quite certain of that. a bruised ego would be a physical impossibility.

besides, there are many snakes in the grass. this is america. if one needs his ass massaged, i'm sure 20 more will pop up to take his place.

it's a free market...after all.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:45:16 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
No, I have been very clear that I favor unrestricted capitalism except in the most limited of circumstances. Everyone seems to want to argue from the seller's side. So I ask you to humor me and put yourself on the buyer's side.

Your home was devastated by Charley. You took precautions, the storm wasn't supposed to hit your area with full force, but you prepared nonetheless. You have food, water, ice in coolers, a generator in case you lose power. You're good to go. Lord knows you have enough firepower to chase off any troublemakers. Well the storm redirects and rips the roof off your house, scatters everything to the winds, you and your wife and baby were lucky to survive. Power is out, phone lines are done, roads are flooded... besides, Campy's tree just fell on your truck, its not going anywhere with that cracked engine block. Your newborn baby is dehydrated, hungry and you have no potable water or formula and mom for whatever reason can not breast feed. I come along and happen to have a can of formula and a couple gallons of water on me. I don't need them, happen to have them. Don't need the money either. You ask if I can help. Sensing a chance at profit I mention that I happen to have what you need, what do you have? You tell me you have nothing of value, everything has been destroyed, you can't get to the bank... won't I please help you. Sure, I could... but I did pay something and you have nothing... so if I give them to you I actually suffer a loss... and perhaps there is even an opportunity cost for surely there is somebody down the road somewhere who needs it as well and can pay. So I tell you, wish I could help... I see you are in need, but we live in a Capitalist system and you have nothing to offer, so I must kindly decline. Good luck to you.

I go on my way. The next day I come back through and see you and your wife on whats left of your porch crying. I stop and ask what's wrong. You tell me through clenched teeth that your child died in the night and I could have prevented it by giving you the formula mix and water. I look at you indifferently, because remember emotions and ethics have no place in this transaction, and say well I wish I could have helped, but there could have been somebody down the road who could have paid more. Sadly I did not find anyone, so I guess I'll just take my formula and go home... good day to you. Man, I hope at that point you would put a bullet in the back of my head.

Only problem is, why didn't the mother and father hike out with the now starving newborn and find what they needed themselves? Where they waiting for the magic formula fairey to drop it out of the sky for them? A little personal responsibility here would work wonders.

You think they woudl be miffed if you offered them the formula on your way back at a discount?

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:47:17 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I love capatilism, supply and demand are the way it should always work.

What we have in Florida right now is socalism. People will approve of it though, even people who would not normally approve of it.

A shame, isn't it?
Why is it that I always have the brilliant ideas AFTER the opportunity passes?
A few truckloads of chainsaws transported to the disaster area and sold for my costs plus 5%, undercutting all the price gougers.
Dammit!

You wouldn't be able to afford to rent the truck at those prices, nor any of the other expense you would find.

I woudl like to have gotten a truck load down there a day before and marked at 1000% over cost, now that woudl have been an oppurtunity.
This is Texas. I have access to plenty of trucks that I wouldn't have to pay for

And the price of gas to get to florida? And the employees you would need to sell and guard your wares? Mighty thin margin there at 5% bud.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:48:19 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
No, I am afraid I am slow, but maybe you can explain where you get the right to physically harm someone because you do not like a price you are offered? Doesn't your dissatsifaction with a price end when you say no thank you, or are you somehow entitled to go further and punish someone for imagined transgressions also?

yes, you are doing a damn fine job at ACTING slow.

I must be Campy, I must be, but please, indulge me and answer my question? Thanks!

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:49:50 AM EDT

[#49]

Campy -

Say said arborist raises price a factor of 20x.

And you raise your price for whatever it is you do by 10%

Depending on perspectives, you are both whores. The only difference is how good a whore you each think you are.

Either you beleive in capitalism or you don't bro.

Posted: 8/18/2004 7:50:30 AM EDT

[#50]

I don't know Hielo, we can keep changing the circumstances I suppose. While trying to hike out dad fell and broke his ankle. Mom is too weak from having just given birth three days ago and those damn HMOs sent her home too soon and maybe she is having complications from the delivery. The cops, national guard and fema are just overwhelmed and haven't made it to this fairly remote area yet. Bottom line, they can't go for help, help isn't coming to them in time and you are it partner. In their position, what do you do? Let's add another variable in. You are the dad, I am the gouger... you have a gun, I do not. Do you take the formula by force? If so, you just allowed emotion to over-rule the system and remember... no emotion, ethics or morality should enter this discussion... just the cold hard reality of supply and demand.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Price gouging question (Page 2 of 9)

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