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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:21:05 PM EDT
[#1]
The central issue in all arguments in cases like WACO,Ruby Ridge,etc is that, even if what was alledged was true,they should have been handled different.
The Gov.cannot treat civilians in the US as if they were in an occupied country under Martial Law. The Feds should have stayed out of it, with their paramilitary frame of mind,and let the Sheriff or Texas Rangers handle it. The outcome might have been much better. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:21:18 PM EDT
[#2]
[url]http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html[/url]
cut and paste this link, read and digest the information and get back to us Edited only to activate the link |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:23:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Burn - Please don't say another word or even think another thought on this subject until you have done some serious research. The first source would be WACO - RULES OF ENGAGEMENT an award-winning movie about what happened at Waco. After viewing this movie and doing some research to verify facts etc. - then come back and tell us what you think.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:23:36 PM EDT
[#4]
According to all the cop haters, conspiracy theorists, anti-government crowd and general rable rousers on here the whole thing was one big conspiracy by Clinton, Reno, FBI, ATF, CIA, all law enforcement agencies and all LEO's to take away our 2nd Amendment rights to own a firearm, rape children, and commit felonies.
I hate Clinton and Reno and have no great love for the FBI or ATF, but to think they somehow orchestrated this whole thing is absurd. As is the idea they were shooting at people trying to escape the flaming buildings. As is the idea they set fire to the building in the FIRST place. Koresh was a religious zealot (no crime) who wanted to stockpile arms (again no crime) which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) and hand grenades (woops, another crime) along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) through religious coercion. Then when a legally obtained search warrant was executed, in broad daylight, by exceptionally visibly uniformed and marked federal agents, these folowers and Koresh then used deadly force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime). If you want to dance with the devil, dont cry when you get burned (or burnt up). |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:25:59 PM EDT
[#5]
Even in the case of criminal wrongdoing on the part of the Davidians, US citizens are generally allowed to have a trial before we use public funds to kill 'em. It seems a case where the appointed officials did not take the "high road."
What if you or I was accused of being child molesters or some other type of criminal and we were not? Would it be proper for Publicly funded hit squads to take us out in the night? I hope our society does not operate like that. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:26:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Killing kids is killing kids.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:27:04 PM EDT
[#7]
There is no evidence the "rape thing", as you call it, was anything other than propaganda/disinformation to sway public opinion. Listening to you, I guess it worked. I would like to think we (the American people) would have "done something" if not for the media campaign to demonize the people there. You might ask yourself which is better--living in a religious community or being burned to death by the government? Did you not think it funny the site was bulldozed and fenced off mere days after the massacre? Crime scenes of this type are routinely investigated for months afterward. Especially with the allegations having been made against these people. Perhaps some of the legitimate LEO's who reside here can back me up on this. That whole fiasco stunk to high Heaven. If you do a little investigating you will likely have your opinion changed greatly. They may have been a little strange but they did not "deserve" to be assaulted/killed. Just my opinion. It's worth what you're paying for it, I guess.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:27:33 PM EDT
[#8]
I'll Watch the movieand check the link. yeah i think local LE office and ranger would have done a better job...PLUS its my understanding that at the time of WACO the ATF tactical team left a lot to be desirred in the formal training part of their unit.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:29:30 PM EDT
[#9]
GunToter - The ATF has never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to show that The Brach Davidians had full-auto guns or live grenades.
Further, Texas Health and Human Services conducted 3 visits to the church and found NO evidence of child abuse of any kind. Also, if you have a warrant and serve it by attacking someone with full-auto fire without even knocking - then you, as an agent of Govt, deserve whatever you get. When ATF came out of that cattle-car shooting, they should all have been mown down. If they wanted Koresh, all they had to do was arrest him as he went into town - which he did several times a week. If their goal was to 'save the children', then attacking a plywood structure with full-auto fire from hi-power weapons is not the way to do it. If you want to kill American citizens - then they went about it the correct way. In short - until you actually have facts- then shut your fat mouth and stick to things you know something about. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:30:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Originally Posted By Gun Toter: According to all the cop haters, conspiracy theorists, anti-government crowd and general rable rousers on here the whole thing was one big conspiracy by Clinton, Reno, FBI, ATF, CIA, all law enforcement agencies and all LEO's to take away our 2nd Amendment rights to own a firearm, rape children, and commit felonies. I hate Clinton and Reno and have no great love for the FBI or ATF, but to think they somehow orchestrated this whole thing is absurd. As is the idea they were shooting at people trying to escape the flaming buildings. As is the idea they set fire to the building in the FIRST place. Koresh was a religious zealot (no crime) who wanted to stockpile arms (again no crime) which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) and hand grenades (woops, another crime) along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) through religious coercion. Then when a legally obtained search warrant was executed, in broad daylight, by exceptionally visibly uniformed and marked federal agents, these folowers and Koresh then used deadly force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime). If you want to dance with the devil, dont cry when you get burned (or burnt up). I would suggest you research this subject also. You qualify to work at ATF, maybe even the HRT, Comrade. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:31:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Have you been on another planet for the last ten years or on this one in a coma? [sleep] No, I'm afraid neither is true. He just heard what "they" wanted him to hear.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:32:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: GunToter - The ATF has never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to show that The Brach Davidians had full-auto guns or live grenades. In short - until you actually have facts- then shut your fat mouth and stick to things you know something about. You said what I wanted to. Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:33:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: There is no evidence the "rape thing", as you call it, was anything other than propaganda/disinformation to sway public opinion. Listening to you, I guess it worked. no it didnt work if you read my post. i said i didnt know! thats why i wrote the thread to get more info. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:36:39 PM EDT
[#14]
everybody is so quick to start throwing insults... i started this thread to be informed and not guided like a blind sheep by the goverment and instead of info i get insulted. to the guys that gave me info thanks.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:40:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: but i have no sympathy for any of the adults. Wasnt david F#$KIN Little girls there (rape-molestation) everyone forgets about that when they hammer the ATF. david was a pig and the other members of the family let him get away with it. Or was the rape thing just a story by the media.. no it didnt work if you read my post. i said i didnt know! thats why i wrote the thread to get more info. It sounded to me like you had your mind made up. No flame intended. I hope you will research this as you will be shocked and horrified the more you find out. I am glad for your interest in the subject. I, for one, will live from now on with great shame and regret that I sat on my ass and allowed this to happen. It was a test of liberty and we failed miserably. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:42:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Gun toter:
There has never been any real proof that Koresh commited any crime. He legally built Ar-15's, which he sold through a licensed dealer and converted dummy hand grenade hull to "complaint desk, take a number" type plaques to support hisself and his followers. I am not a branch davidian member nor a Koresh supporter, but I do know that the government never had any evidence to support thier claims of any of his alleged crimes. I also know that the government lied about alot that went on during those raids, and that and I DO believe that they started the fire indirectly through either their use of pyrotechnic gas canisters or the use of the battering ram APC's which knocked over or broke the kerosene lanterns they used to light and heat the building since they were without power. If you believe that the FBI, ATF,and DOJ weren't the criminals then you really need to look very closely at the real evidence and not the so called evidence(none) that the ATF had when getting a search warrant. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:43:02 PM EDT
[#17]
the other question my wife (reading over my shoulder) asked. what about the rumor about the helicopter firing round into the building ..something about her friend said you could see it in some of the video footage.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:43:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Originally Posted By Gun Toter: Koresh was a religious zealot (no crime) who wanted to stockpile arms (again no crime) which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) and hand grenades (woops, another crime) along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) through religious coercion. Then when a legally obtained search warrant was executed, in broad daylight, by exceptionally visibly uniformed and marked federal agents, these folowers and Koresh then used deadly force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime). I could be wrong here but it is my understanding that the search warrant was obtained through misrepresentations or unfounded statements to the issuing judge...therefore I would presume it is "not legal" How many of those illegal machineguns and grenades were found? Why were military personnel called in? Where are the raped children or witnesses to the crime? Even the Federal negotiators felt betrayed by the top command,including Reno. If those people committed crimes, the feds could, and should have found a better way to arrest them,so they could stand trial and be sentenced by a civil court.They should not have received "justice" from the BATF,FBI or any of our protecting fed agencies that wanted to teach them a lesson or avenge their dead officers. What Tim McVeigh did was wrong,but what the feds did was not right either! |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:45:39 PM EDT
[#19]
It is of my opinion that waco was going to used as a test case to apply asset-forfeiture law to religious groups.also it should be noted that after the federal assault on the compound,it was found that the members were armed per capita half as much as the general population of texas .
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:46:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: the other question my wife (reading over my shoulder) asked. what about the rumor about the helicopter firing round into the building ..something about her friend said you could see it in some of the video footage. There is government FLIR (forward looking infrared) footage which clearly shows three men standing in a line outside the rear (kitchen area) of the building shooting toward the bldg. while it was engulfed in flames. Also, the body of a man appears to be twisted into the tracks of a "tank" after the ordeal. Check this all out, it is ghastly. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:53:02 PM EDT
[#21]
yeah im reading some stuff on it now . some of the crap is messed up!
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Posted: 5/25/2001 1:00:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: the other question my wife (reading over my shoulder) asked. what about the rumor about the helicopter firing round into the building ..something about her friend said you could see it in some of the video footage. In both WACO movies, the 911 tape wherein Steve Schnieder and alternately Wayne Williams (Black Harvard Law Grad) begged the 911 staff (locals) to contact the ATF HQ and call off the raid, as women and kids were being shot. You can clearly hear (and Steve points out) the sound of an MG firing from above with loud helicopter noises accompanying it. Govt attys tried to have this 911 tape sealed but even the bought and paid for scumbag Judge didnt go for that. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. The only thing the Branch Davidians were "guilty" of is being "too Christian". Most military doctrine teaches that when you are attacked, and that attack stalls, you counter-attack and decimate. The BDs, when told the ATF were low on ammo, and wanted to retrieve their dead and wounded, allowed them to do so. Bad move AFAIC. D. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 1:00:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Despite evidence, or lack of it shall we say, the rape thing was a popular topic in the media. There were never any charges of rape brought against David Koresh. One of his wives was 14. In Texas, that is legal age of marriage and consent with the consent of the person and parents. I stress LEGAL. Federal law does not cover this topic at all. There were charges of child abuse spurred on by Davidian detractors. But, on Feb. 27, 1992, TX. Dept. Of Human Services social worker Joyce Sparks, visited Mt. Carmel with two other Human Services employees and two McLennan County Sheriff's deputies. Koresh allowed the visit to be videotaped. They made two more visits an Koresh visited their offices. The case was closed on April 30, 1992 for lack of evidence of abuse. The children at Mt Carmel, contrary to theh reports, were found to be very well adjusted and happy, polite children. Ms Sparks made a comment prior to the attack that she believed the government (FBI) meant to kill them all. The BATF, in spite of NO jurisdictiion whatsoever in such cases, child abuse or otherwise. They are strictly limited to cases of Alcohol, tobacco and firearms. Even if they did have jurisdiction, murdering the people you're there to protect is not justice. Disagreeing with someone's religion is not grounds for an all out military style assault, especially when the church is full of the people the attack. You don't shoot, kill and burn before the trial. This is America..or was..not Nazi Germany. That he had multiple wives was known, but so do hundreds of men in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona, in the open and secretively. I don't see the burning pyres there. If you want to learn the truth about Waco, visit www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html
OUT |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 1:40:54 PM EDT
[#24]
Guys,
I really enjoy this... an actual civil discussion. My hats off to you all. That's why I do like this forum. Now, I think the whole thing can be summed up like this: there were catastrophic screw-ups by everyone. The ATF/FBI/and Koresh. Tactically, the ATF plan was not sound. And I personally think they were grandstanding for a raid. They screwed up, plain and simple. But, as for the whole standoff thing, one man could have ended it, plain and simple. But he chose to play the role of coward and not stand up and be a man, walk out, and answer to the charges. He was a psycho with a death-wish. Some people are just like that. So in my opinion, there is no one to really stack *all* the blame on. As for all these supposed "truth" videos...horse-hockey. There weren't M1A2's and Apache's at Waco. Delta operators weren't assaulting the compound (I just LMAO when I see that). That's just silly bs put out by people with an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes a catastrophic series of events just occurs. Again, good discussion going here. -SARguy |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 1:44:43 PM EDT
[#25]
After seeing the true nature of Klinton and Reno and some of the federal law enforcement agencies I can say, in my opinion, they are not competent enough to carry out a massive deception.
Look at all of the info that continues to "leak out". Did ATF and FBI cover up. Absolutely. Even subsequent government investigations state so. My problem with all of this is the lack of accountability on the part of the people that made the decisions, gave the orders and then those that carried out the illegal orders. The Nuremburg Trials showed illegal orders given and followed out in no way negates personal responsibility for ones actions. From everything I have been able to read and learn about Ruby Ridge and Waco there is a strong common factor between them - TAX EVASION. Was it AFT or FBI that had a surveilance operation that lasted 6 months or so for Randy Weaver? For a few hundred bucks, for crying out loud. I personally think trolls in charge of the agencies picked these two to "make examples of" so others would not follow suit. There was a strong trend of rebelling against federal taxes underway at the time. Uncle Sam has always been real unreceptive about non-payment of taxes. Illegal liquor production in the South brought the "Revenuers" (then Bureau of Alchol, Tax and Firearms) down on them. (BTW - I am in South Carolina) It was because Uncle Sam was not getting his cut. In other words I think it was all about MONEY! I am not sure but that thought bothers me more than all the other possible reasons that have been thought up until now. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 1:50:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: There is no evidence the "rape thing", as you call it, was anything other than propaganda/disinformation to sway public opinion. I'd have to disagree there -- even the Davidians admitted that their religious beliefs included polygamy. I don't know if that extended to underage children or not, but having attended a meeting at which one of the Davidians was a speaker, I do know that Koresh was having sex with many of the women, including the one who spoke that night. 14 may be the legal age for marriage in Texas, but I don't think it's the age of consent for sexual activity with an adult outside of marriage -- anyone know what Texas law says nowadays? Certainly polygamy is illegal in Texas, which would make the idea that he was "married" to all of these women irrelevant to a prosecution. Another of the allegations was that the Davidians were operating a "meth lab" on the property -- but that WAS false; they'd been trying to get the sheriff to investigate the lab which was left on the property by a previous tenant. There was some suspicion that the sheriff had ties to the drug ring, however, as he was stonewalling and refusing to look into it -- later, of course, he used the "there's a drug lab on the property" bit to claim that the Davidians were the ones who had done it. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 2:09:08 PM EDT
[#27]
As far as the "child abuse" excuse goes..... Show me where any of that falls within the jurisdiction of the ATF. Using that as any type of excuse to the raid is just trying to hide the fact that there was no good reason for that style raid to begin with.
The ATF lied about a drug lab both on the warrant and to get use of the National Guard choppers, so no it was not a legal warrant. No proof of live grenades was found at all (The ATF loves to claim that anyone witha dummy grenade and some pistol primers is "conspiring" to manufacture grenades). As far as the Machine Guns are concered, those who got out claimed they were converted during the standoff. This makes sense to me, if you have already been accused of it and they have tried to kill you and now surround you, why not go ahead and convert some to defend yourself. And was all that needed for enforcemnet of what, $1000 in taxes? Originaly posted by Gun Toter: If you want to dance with the devil, dont cry when you get burned (or burnt up). Funny thing is, you could apply that statement to the ATF who got thier ass handed to em on a platter and had to get the FBI to clean up the mess they made. They were EXTREMLY lucky that the Davidians just wanted them to leave and ceased fire as soon as they started to withdraw. Had it been me they had raided like that all those pictures you saw of agents retreating out in the open with thier wounded would have had incoming rounds in them. They danced with the wrong folks and got burned pretty bad, and still to this day whine about being outgunned, the Davidians being tipped off, etc. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 2:18:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Just to ad something to the flame burning here, I believe the FBI when they say they never fired a single shot (not to confuse this with the ATF opening fire first during the initial raid).
I'm certian the FBI never fired a shot when the compound was burning to the ground and people were trying to escape. I do believe, however, that either Delta Force or the Navy Seals fired several shots! |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 2:26:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By 71-Hour Achmed: Quoted: There is no evidence the "rape thing", as you call it, was anything other than propaganda/disinformation to sway public opinion. I'd have to disagree there -- even the Davidians admitted that their religious beliefs included polygamy. I don't know if that extended to underage children or not, but having attended a meeting at which one of the Davidians was a speaker, I do know that Koresh was having sex with many of the women, including the one who spoke that night. 14 may be the legal age for marriage in Texas, but I don't think it's the age of consent for sexual activity with an adult outside of marriage -- anyone know what Texas law says nowadays? Certainly polygamy is illegal in Texas, which would make the idea that he was "married" to all of these women irrelevant to a prosecution. Okay fine then, I guess it's a GOOD thing they were incinerated. Maybe we can start doing the same for parking tickets and such. Damned scofflaws need to be taught a thing or two about proper conduct. Sheesh. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 2:42:20 PM EDT
[#30]
[b]But, as for the whole standoff thing, one man could have ended it, plain and simple. But he chose to play the role of coward and not stand up and be a man, walk out, and answer to the charges. He was a psycho with a death-wish. Some people are just like that.[/b]
Lets not forget that if the feds really wanted to arrest Koresh, they could have done it during one of his morning jogs outside the compound while they were survaling(if that's a real word) him. And remember, he also invited them to come over and look around the compound while they were at the place of the FFL holder he sold the rifles through which they declined to do. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 3:10:41 PM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By Gun Toter: Koresh was a religious zealot (no crime) who wanted to stockpile arms (again no crime) which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) not a crime, see 2nd Am. never proven in any case and hand grenades (woops, another crime) never proven, not a crime. along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) never proven. through religious coercion. Then when a legally obtained search warrant was executed, search warrent was illegal, not only but frauding the evidence, but also by attepting to enforce an uncontitutional ad in broad daylight, by exceptionally visibly uniformed and marked federal agents, these folowers and Koresh then used deadly force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime). defending yourself from agents of the government is attempting to deprive you of life, liberty, and property without due process is not illegal. If you want to dance with the devil, dont cry when you get burned (or burnt up). |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 3:14:39 PM EDT
[#32]
I remember back when this was actually happening hearing that UPS called the ATF after a box they were delivering broke open and hand grenades were found. This led to surveillance of the Branch Davidians and so forth, and was presented by the news media as a justification for the government attacks.
Except for the part about UPS breaking open a box, this story sounds pretty strange to me. If real grenades were found, there would be no need for investigations. There would be no hand-wringing over polygamous relationships. They would not begin some type of study while people were possibly running around with grenades. They would allow delivery and then immediately arrest both the shipper and the recipient, wouldn't they? Whatever the truth is about the government's motivations, or who started the fire, or whether or not escaping people were shot, I think that there is an absolute minimum level of screwing up that the government did that nobody can deny. The Davidians' home was surrounded by our government's guys. Everything that went in and out of there was controlled by our government -- the telephone, the electricity, the water. Koresh may not have surrendered yet, but those people were already held in a state of total helplessness. When our government takes away the ability of people to do things for themselves like run water or call the fire department, they darn well have an obligation to make the best effort possible to provide other protection for those people. In this, at least, they failed badly. They had no fire plan, despite having weeks to prepare one. At a minimum, our government was incredibly careless with the lives of people who were still supposedly presumed innocent. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 3:36:59 PM EDT
[#33]
I just need to clear up a few things for myself....
As I understand it, the basis for the raid was the 'suspected' non-payment of ONE instance of the $200 NFA tax. As this is a Treasury matter, I can see how ATF would get involved (they grew out of DoT, and became a full Department in 1972.) All of the polygamy and child molestation charges seems to be just add-ons. However, if Koresh was rather co-operative up until the final assault, why all the dust-up? I also seem to recall using a variety of tear gas (I don't recall the desi) that was highly flammable - and deploying it with a source of ignition (hot ammunition) in close proximity. Of course, everyone was shocked when the place went up. I have gone to the online archive, and will download it for review in its entirety. Of course, we should all know as much as possible about this. 1) Why are paramilitary units for domestic 'peace-keeping' and law enforcement created without the auspices of the Department of Justice? Seems to me that all LE duties fall under DoJ - with the small exceptions of those covered by the United States Secret Service. The USSS is a DoT agency. Why are these 'extra-military' elements required? Is justice oversight not desired? 2) Why is it necessary to kill 86 people in one of the worst ways imaginable over a SUSPICION of not having paid $200? Is our Federal Government that broke? 3) Why was Lon Horiuchi (of Ruby Ridge Fame) involved in the command structure at Waco - AFTER having proven himself an incompetent sniper? 4) If Janet Reno has accepted "full responsibility" for the events surrounding Waco and Ruby Ridge, why is she still walking the streets free, and in line for the FL-DNC nomination for Governor? 5) Why has Lon Horiuchi not been brought to task for his actions? Those a rejust a few of the questions I have.... FFZ |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 3:37:19 PM EDT
[#34]
the amount of disinformation on the subjects of Ruby Ridge and Waco exhibited here is staggering. Please do not say another word until you have documentation to back up what you say, these unfounded assertions are the very thing we are trying to get rid of. I was at a rally in Lincoln, Ne a few months ago concerning the Oklahoma City bombing case (McVeigh) and reviewed copies of court documents. There also, were copies of court documents concerning Waco, believe me, you only know the tip of the ice berg. Please, no more conjecture and heresay. Documented info only! My G*d, we'll never get anywhere this way.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 3:46:57 PM EDT
[#35]
savoy1,
It is unfortunate but certainly true that what we hear on the evening news can't be regarded as anything better than "hearsay." There does not even appear to be any such thing as investigative reporting any more. Just lazy talking heads being spoon-fed by the government they are supposed to be watch-dogging. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:44:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I'm certian the FBI never fired a shot when the compound was burning to the ground and people were trying to escape. I do believe, however, that either Delta Force or the Navy Seals fired several shots! **snicker-snicker-snicker** Ok, seriously, the 3 CAG personnel there were not door kickers, they were support specialists. Not everyone in the D is a shooter. I can assure you that NSW assets were NOT there either. Trust me on that. Sheesh. SARguy |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:51:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Blue 207, I think you are absolutely right that the whole thing was about money. But you are thinking way too small. The amount of unpaid taxes in either of these cases is nothing to the gov't budget. The Waco raid was just a couple of weeks before ATF budget hearings were scheduled in Congress. They needed a big high profile bust to justify a fat increase the agency budget.
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Posted: 5/26/2001 12:00:19 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I remember back when this was actually happening hearing that UPS called the ATF after a box they were delivering broke open and hand grenades were found. This led to surveillance of the Branch Davidians and so forth, and was presented by the news media as a justification for the government attacks. The grenade issue was another thing that the ATF never did any investigation into. The Davidians worked in the gun show circuit and sold gag gifts composed of TRAINING GRENADES mounted on a plaque reading "Complaints dept. take a number" and a number tag affixed to the pull ring. I have a copy of the search warrant and not only are there technical errors (the ATF is in charge of enforcing laws they don't even know!) but even mentions suspected child abuse violations. Since when did it become bureau of alchohol, tobacco, firearms, and child protective services? |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 2:01:04 AM EDT
[#39]
[left]it is in my mind that day that the ATF was looking for a fight they thought they were soooo good when they were handed there asses back to them on a platter. then they burned them down iam so convinced that that Gov was so pissed those 51 days they used tanks/helicopters(WITH M60's mounted on them) morter's, 50cal sniper rifles CS gas, delta force(Illegal use of the military) then the Gov Got even! they never showed the evidence of illegal machineguns or grenade's. iam also convinced too
that they did not want them to come out alive. [/left] |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 4:55:05 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Killing kids is killing kids. |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 1:23:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Blue 207, I think you are absolutely right that the whole thing was about money. But you are thinking way too small. The amount of unpaid taxes in either of these cases is nothing to the gov't budget. The Waco raid was just a couple of weeks before ATF budget hearings were scheduled in Congress. They needed a big high profile bust to justify a fat increase the agency budget. Rubicon: That is probably correct and "the other side of the coin" so to speak. What principle is it that dicitates the most simple answer is usually the correct one. I would hazard a guess the entire ball of wax can be summed up in two words: money and power. I believe the Word refers to this as greed and lust. |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 1:39:08 PM EDT
[#42]
well i bought the F.L.I.R. project tape today at the dayton gunshow.i'll give you my opinon on that tape after i watch it tonight.mmk
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Posted: 5/26/2001 2:05:42 PM EDT
[#43]
My thoughts are that it is not the U.S. government's job to save the children. Their primary jobs should be to tote the mail, and guard the borders, both of these tasks are being done in a piss poor manner.
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Posted: 5/26/2001 2:41:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Watch out for those Black helo's they get you every time. LOL.
From my understanding the two (2) US Army (non-N.G.) pers their were a BGen and a Col. - there to advise the FBI (after the ATF fiasco). I hardly think either of them were launching rounds into the compound. I think most of you have missed the point - regardless if the ATF action was unwarranted - you don't shoot gov't employees (unless they shoot first) As for the alledged helicopter firing (once again Tx NG) - why not, if it is in support of an operation then it, assuably can use its assets if need be. - Before the conspiracy folk get going - No I do not support burning folk just cause they have a different view of life. And No I don't agree with the AFT's action (just plain dumb) - or the fact that they got involved. 1) Last time I loked the ATF had nothing to do with rape. 2) Last time I loked the ATF had nothing to do with drug labs. But - I think you should look at the Tx NG too. CN/CS grenade have been used for a long time - most have a pyrotechnic fuzing system. It is not until it comes in contact with a flamable environment that that becomes a problem. Once a large fire starts to rage - the CN/CS gas came combust and yes does become toxic. To think this was done intentional is Fucking Ludicrous. Those of you in the field will note that OC Grenades are becoming more prevalent - kinda of a harsh lessons learned that came out of WACO. Waiting for the incoming |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 2:52:43 PM EDT
[#45]
what ed sr. said.
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Posted: 5/26/2001 5:30:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Watch out for those Black helo's they get you every time. LOL. From my understanding the two (2) US Army (non-N.G.) pers their were a BGen and a Col. - there to advise the FBI (after the ATF fiasco). I hardly think either of them were launching rounds into the compound. I think most of you have missed the point - regardless if the ATF action was unwarranted - you don't shoot gov't employees (unless they shoot first) There are indications that they did shoot first, we will never know for sure. After hearing the 911 call I am inclined to believe they did. As for the alledged helicopter firing (once again Tx NG) - why not, if it is in support of an operation then it, assuably can use its assets if need be. The NG is prohibited by law from supporting anything but counter narcotics work, that is why the ATF had to lie about a meth lab to get the air support. Also firing into the roof of an occupied building would seem to indicate a desire just to kill, knowing that children were inside. The NG just piloted the birds, the ATF did the rest. |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 5:44:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Not only did the ATF lie to the NG, but they lied to the CO at Ft. Hood in order to utilize their MOUT training facilities for free.
In complete violation of Title 10 Posse Comitatus Act and Military Policy. In a FOIA brief obtained by an atty in Tucson, David Hardy. ATF documents show that Koresh went shooting with men he believed to be undercover ATF agents THREE DAYS before the raid. what a crew of butchers we have as our "federal Po-lice". D. |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 5:59:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Wasnt david F#$KIN Little girls there (rape-molestation) everyone forgets about that when they hammer the ATF. I know the BATF sucks but Waco is a poor case. david was a pig and the other members of the family let him get away with it. Or was the rape thing just a story by the media.. Even if that were true ATF has NO JURISDICTION. Jurisdiction would be the domain of the State of Texas. |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 6:03:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Originally Posted By Gun Toter: rape children, and commit felonies. which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) and hand grenades (woops, another crime) along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) through religious coercion. force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime). You have made the allegations, where is the PROOF? |
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Posted: 5/26/2001 6:06:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: GunToter - The ATF has never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to show that The Brach Davidians had full-auto guns or live grenades. Further, Texas Health and Human Services conducted 3 visits to the church and found NO evidence of child abuse of any kind. Also, if you have a warrant and serve it by attacking someone with full-auto fire without even knocking - then you, as an agent of Govt, deserve whatever you get. When ATF came out of that cattle-car shooting, they should all have been mown down. If they wanted Koresh, all they had to do was arrest him as he went into town - which he did several times a week. If their goal was to 'save the children', then attacking a plywood structure with full-auto fire from hi-power weapons is not the way to do it. If you want to kill American citizens - then they went about it the correct way. In short - until you actually have facts- then shut your fat mouth and stick to things you know something about. Thank you! If he stuck to things he knew something about he would'nt be here! |
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