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Posted: 2/28/2004 5:59:10 PM EDT
I had the opportunity to get a Diebold vault door off of a jobsite locally, which was actually a fur vault in an old clothing store. It's a full frame door, weighing roughly 500-600lbs, and has a 14 bolt locking system, so I thought I would incorporate it into the house that I'm building. We're laying 16" blocks, and the room is going to be (internal dimensions) 4'deep, 6'8" wide, and 8' tall. We're going to pour the blocks and a 6" thick roof on it after dropping rebar down each cell. The room will be pretty much air tight since the door has a 2 hour fire rating and seals pretty tight. I'm trying to find a dehumidifier for it, large enough to handle the square footage. All I can find are these little heater types that look like a heating element for a standard gun safe. We're only 3 corses up now, but I did think to rough a drain line under the slab. Anyone know of anything that I can use?
                     
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:08:31 PM EDT
[#1]
I don't quite understand what it is you are asking for....
BTW, I don't mean to piss in your Wheaties, but block walls aren't nearly as secure as you think they are. Trust me. |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:12:49 PM EDT
[#2]
How are you going to finish out the top? It will need to be strong enough to withstand extreme heat and weight under heat. Idealy you would double wall with an airspace.
Good luck, take pictures, and share with us! |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:15:55 PM EDT
[#3]
You are going to want poured walls. They are more secure
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:19:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Guys, he said he's pouring every cell, with rebar in each cell as well.
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:20:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: You are going to want poured walls. They are more secure |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:21:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Guys, he said he's pouring every cell, with rebar in each cell as well. Thanks for the update, Norm. I can read, you know. [:D] |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:21:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: We're going to pour the blocks |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:22:25 PM EDT
[#8]
The blocks are going to have a minimal of one if not two #6 rebars in them, poured with 5000psi concrete with fiber in it. We are going to frame up the ceiling from inside the vault and pour it 5"-6" thick, solid concrete. The inside will have one layer of 3/4" plywood and a 1/2" layer of sheetrock to increase the fire rating of it. If someone can get through all of that, then they deserve my stuff for their effort. I need to dehumidify the room because it wont be climate controlled. I would have to put a supply and a return on it, and they would both have to have a fire dampler put on them. That would also add one weak spot.
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:27:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Guys, he said he's pouring every cell, with rebar in each cell as well. Thanks for the update, Norm. I can read, you know. [:D] I was distracted when I was reading this. Blame the wife |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:27:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Again, so what's the advice you are looking for?
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:28:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Just wondering out loud, would a lightbulb burning in such a confined space as this keep moisture down by generating heat? Afterall, isn't that what the goldenrod type units do?
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:32:26 PM EDT
[#12]
I thought about the light bulb, just keeping it hot enough to dry it out. Honestly, I don't know if that would be enough or not. Thought someone might have some experience with this. I'll post some pics tomorrow after we finish laying the blocks. I probably won't get to pour it until next week. I think I'll just rough in an outlet down in the corner by the drain and maybe I'll figure something out by then.
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:33:20 PM EDT
[#13]
he's looking for a dehumidifier for a space that size. Sounds like you'll have about 214 square feet.
Google is your friend [url]http://www.allergybuyersclubshopping.com/dehumidifiers-home-industrial.html[/url] Take a look at this one, good for 800SF [url]http://www.allergybuyersclubshopping.com/deldeldeh.html[/url] |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:36:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Build another more detectable one and put your other less valuable stuff there[;)], that way when they get the obvious one you'll still have the good one filled w/the good stuff.[;)]
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:39:19 PM EDT
[#15]
yeah I'm putting it in the back of a walk in closet, and I have an idea of hiding it behind a tie and shoe rack that will swing open to reveal the door. Out of sight, out of mind kind of thing.
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:39:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Build another more detectable one and put your other less valuable stuff there[;)], that way when they get the obvious one you'll still have the good one filled w/the good stuff.[;)] Like a glass fronted fake oak gun case with a few H&R Toppers and a Remington Nylon? |
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:40:08 PM EDT
[#17]
damprid.
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:41:55 PM EDT
[#18]
tagged for pics
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Posted: 2/28/2004 6:49:25 PM EDT
[#19]
To answer one of your questions, yes other larger dehumidifiers are available. These are common in basements in our area. The units are self contained and have a collection tray for the water being removed from the air. You will need to watch and see how quickly the collection tank fills then make a regular schedule to empty the collection tray befor e it fills and discharges on the floor. I would also suggest putting a hygrometer in there as a visual aid to see how much moisture exists.
Here are some links: [url]http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/home-dehumidifiers-overview.html[/url] [url]http://www.air-n-water.com/dehumidifiers.htm[/url] As a reseve, I would suggest a manual back-up. In the event of a power outage the dehumidifier will be down unless you run a generator. I beleive there are some 5 gallon bucket size desicant filled items available - check Google for a link for them. Good luck on the project As an aded note, most guns I have seen come in on insurance claims come in for smoke and water damage. Smoke obviosuly from fire, water typically from the FD trying to control the fire. If your area is truly airtight, this should not be an issue. However, you may want to have some methond to provide fresh air for 2 reasons. With stale air you will get a odor build up and if you were ever trapped in there (as in Panic room, you're going to want somethng to breath. |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 4:22:18 AM EDT
[#20]
How are you going to securely fasten the vault door to the blocks?
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Posted: 2/29/2004 4:49:25 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: the room is going to be (internal dimensions) 4'deep, 6'8" wide, and 8' tall.jpg[/url] That seems a tad small. IMO you should go as deep as possible. Maybe another foot or 2. |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:21:49 AM EDT
[#22]
The dimensions look ok for the firearms, but what about the ammo pallets?
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:25:46 AM EDT
[#23]
All I know is that is pretty damn cool and you have a great door.
SGtar15 |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:28:47 AM EDT
[#24]
Sear at one time sold dehumidifiers. Dont know if they still do or not. We had one in our basement in Pa to keep our saddle/tack from mold and mildew.
It worked great and we had a LARGE basement, probably 1000 sq ft or more. Its been a long time so I cant remember the exact footage |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:57:45 AM EDT
[#25]
Homedepot has them for under 100 clams.
Store brand, 8 quart with an attachment for a hose. Lifetime warrenty. |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:00:48 AM EDT
[#26]
You have a good plan, bigger would have been better, but what the hey. I have seen the same construction as you are doing used in jewelry stores. What thickness plate are you going to use on top before you pour the six inches of concrete? I think you could use 1/2 plate and then weld your rebars to the plate then form up and pour the top.
The most important problem is did you pour a beam or pour piers underneath the perimeter of the safe. If not you could break the corner of your slab with all that weight. This could be a serious malfunction!! The light burning in my opinion will keep it dry but since you are on a outside wall it may give you special problems. |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:04:01 AM EDT
[#27]
One light bulb won't do the trick.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:09:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Sear at one time sold dehumidifiers. Dont know if they still do or not. We had one in our basement in Pa to keep our saddle/tack from mold and mildew. It worked great and we had a LARGE basement, probably 1000 sq ft or more. Its been a long time so I cant remember the exact footage I have a SEARs running in my basement with hose drain conected to my sump pump. Works well and NO need for monitoring, he's got a drain pipe - correct? |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:13:33 AM EDT
[#29]
I have nothing to add except that i extremely envious of your new safe.
Keep up the good work. |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:21:42 AM EDT
[#30]
no basement huh
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:47:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Good point about reinforcing the slab under the walls. You could be in for MAJOR problems if you didn't. Especially since that slab is probably currently only 4-6" thick with thickened edges. Not sure what you can do about it now that you've started the walls, but this is serious enough that if you didn't reinforce the slabe, I would tear out the walls and do without the safe. Yes, it really is that big of a deal.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 10:31:53 AM EDT
[#32]
Guys, I think the room IS the safe.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 10:35:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Guys, I think the room IS the safe. they're saying that the weight of those rebar/concrete filled block walls could be enough to crack the corner of that slab if it's not supported |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 11:10:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Guys, I think the room IS the safe. they're saying that the weight of those rebar/concrete filled block walls could be enough to crack the corner of that slab if it's not supported The top would have to be about 20 cubic feet of concrete, I dont know how much a yard, 27 cf, of concrete weighs but figure around 2000lbs for the top alone. If he hasn't poured a complete beam it is not to late to pour piers. Just like leveling a broke slab on the outside corners and sawcut and jackhammer a hole on the inside corner and pour the pier, easier without walls or roof. He has the door, this is too good of a safe to pass up. Just get a structural engineer to tell you what you exactly need if you haven't allready. |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 11:18:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Your safe could be climate controled by use of 2" pipe. Your local fire inspector can tell you where you can get a valve that goes in the 2" line that closes in the event of a fire with a 2 hr rating. Ive had to use them on plumbing vents that penetrated fire walls before and I think they were $48 each.
I would be concerned about the weight on that slab as well. If you didnt beef it up under your safe I would definitly saw a control joint around the safe to keep any stress it caused from sending a crack across the slab. P.S. Thats cool |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:02:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Okay, we got the rest of the blocks laid today, approximatley 185 blocks. It will probably be next week before I pour it. We have another rainy week forcasted. To answer a few of your questions, I did pour a 16" rebar reinforced footer under the walls of the blocks prior to pouring the slab. That should take care of the weight. I did rough in a drain line for the dehumidifier, as you can see it on the lower left of the 4th picture. I think I found a dehumidifier that will work just perfect, thanks to you guys. Most were way to large, but I found a couple that were smaller more suited to a room of this size. I think I will look into the 2" vent pipe with the fire dampler as suggested, only for the worst case scenario that myself or my wife gets locked in. It will be more for an emergency situation rather than climate controlled. I would have made it a little larger, but it was eating away at the wife's walk in closet, so I had to give a little. She's very cool about it, and I'm going to put a file cabinet in it for our papers and some shelves for other things you wouldn't want stolen or burnt up. I'll update the pics again on a new thread in a weak or so when we get to the point of putting in the re-bar and framing up for the pour. I really appreciate everyone's input. I've been reading this site for a long time, but usually don't post a whole lot. I'll be sending in my membership money this coming week. Again, I really appreciate everyone's input. If you have any more questions or suggestions, I'll be more than happy to answer or listen. Thanks
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:08:14 PM EDT
[#37]
How're you going to fasten/secure the vault door to the block wall? I see construction issues here.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 5:45:38 PM EDT
[#38]
I don't even fully understand why you are building this outside, but anyway....
So you are building a vault with a vault door but you are going to attach the door to 2x4s? Remove them and get yourself some ¼" plate steel and attach that to the blocks (which BTW 2 shots of .223 can go right through) BISHOP |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:05:47 PM EDT
[#39]
very cool, now come build me one!
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:08:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Also remember, that if soemone has the time and noise to cover themselves while working (Storm or whatnot) One can punch through a reinforced concrete poured block wall with a man sized hole in about 10-15 minutes with a 12 pound sledge, I had to do it repeatedly this fall and winter. Needed bolt cutters to cut the rebar, but otherwise, not too difficult, and not really that loud, though dusty as hell
Still, soemthign you willk now is happening if you are htere... Just a warning (I am planning on building one but under ground, off of a basement wall, hard for peopel to get at the ceiling and walls that way, hopefully [:(] ) |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:11:56 PM EDT
[#41]
No, I'm not attaching the door to the wood. Its just a guide and support until the concrete is poured. The vault is inside the house, we just havent framed that much up yet. See the pic. [img]http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/126680/4.jpg[/img] When it is built, it will be totally conceiled within the house. The frame is a two piece frame. You put the outside up to wall, then put the inside in, and they bolt together a countless number of times. After you level it and grout around the door from the inside, you put on the trim and hang the door.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:20:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Also remember, that if soemone has the time and noise to cover themselves while working (Storm or whatnot) One can punch through a reinforced concrete poured block wall with a man sized hole in about 10-15 minutes with a 12 pound sledge, I had to do it repeatedly this fall and winter. Needed bolt cutters to cut the rebar, but otherwise, not too difficult, and not really that loud, though dusty as hell Still, soemthign you willk now is happening if you are htere... Just a warning (I am planning on building one but under ground, off of a basement wall, hard for peopel to get at the ceiling and walls that way, hopefully [:(] ) You need to come work for my company. I can't even get the guys that work for me to punch a man size hole in a slab with a jackhammer in 10-15 minutes. If they come from the outside, they will have to come through brick, then fpr, then plywood, then the block. From the inside, you have shelving that will have to come down in front of the wall (since it is a closet), then through the wall, through the block with the fiber concrete with at least one # 6 rebar, then 3/4 fire rated plywood. If they can do that in 15 minutes, they deserve something for their hard effort. That would have to be one hell of a pair of bolt cutters to get through a #6 rebar since its about as big around as a nickel.... |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:20:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Kind of a moot point now, but I probably would have put up some sort of tent (with sides) covering your work. Something to hide from cars passing by on the street. Everyone who drives/drove by and saw your construction now knows there will be something special in there someday.
Anyway, good luck and I wish I had one. [:)] |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 6:32:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Yeah, I got some weird looks today. One lady asked if it was a fireplace?... Think I'll start telling people its a crematory and then maybe they'll leave me alone. We're in a new section in a loop so not too much traffic today. It's covered now and will have the studs built around it by the end of tomorrow. I just have to get it poured prior to the ceiling and roof so I can pump the concrete in. I deffinitely don't want to have to wheel barrel it in and lift it with a bucket. Laying the blocks sucked bad enough. Think I'll stick to electrical after this house is done. Makes me appreciate a mason.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 7:26:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Mine is somewhat similar. I filled the cells with rebar and pumped them full of concrete. The top has at least 4 inches of concrete on top of the decking. Rebar and wire mesh all over the top of if. As you can see in the earliest pic, I poured the footings first. Rather than having to deal with a dehumidifier, I ran supply and return ducts into it. A year or so later, and I have detected no rust on anything.
[img]http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album//00001721/Vault_Front.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album//00001721/Vault_Door_Straight.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 2/29/2004 7:35:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Very cool stuff guys. Can't wait to build my shack.
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Posted: 2/29/2004 8:27:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Cope, that looks awesome. How about a few more pics?
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Posted: 3/1/2004 5:28:53 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Cope, that looks awesome. How about a few more pics? [img]http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album//00001721/Garage_Steel_Set.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album//00001721/Steel_Set__Vault_Ceiling.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album//00001721/Vault_Duct.jpg[/img] Thats about as far as I want to go. No need to reveal the appearance of the finished home or the contents of the vault. |
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Posted: 3/1/2004 6:03:03 AM EDT
[#49]
Reading comprehesion.
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Posted: 3/1/2004 6:24:40 AM EDT
[#50]
Cope, does that double as your bomb/fallout shelter?
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