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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:54:49 PM EDT
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/
$361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter. The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009. Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots. In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight. The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.” Look on the bright side...... between us we have everyone licked. 
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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:56:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Better to learn now than later!
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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:57:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Better to learn now than later! Definitely. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:58:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Well that seems obvious to me.
Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, where they are almost invisible on radar but can see their opponents clearly? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 1:59:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first?
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:00:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Well that seems obvious to me. Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, before they are picked up on radar? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. But in real engagements the ROE might not allow for BVR fighting. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:00:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Does not the Luftwaffe use the "dragonfly" G-suit? That might make a difference.
And or we were holding back. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:01:45 PM EDT
[#7]
pfft!!! What does that matter? F-22 isn't going to let you get in close enough for a gun fight. He's going to take you out well before he's in your visual range or visible on your radar.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:03:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Meh. Yeah, in visual range, they're pretty evenly matched.
Good luck to the Typhoon in getting to Visual range. The F-22 is better at almost everything... in visual range... it's merely equal. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:03:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. They seem to have been able to do so during the tests from what I understand, at least for some of the exercises. To be honest the Raptor and Eurofighter between them make a dream team in terms of aerial combat in my eyes, but I am no expert in these matters. Add the A10 and Tornado in ground attack and low level smash-em-ups and and you have the perfect storm. 
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:03:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/ $361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter. The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.” Now, that's the hard part, isn't it? Getting close to a Raptor. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:03:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
pfft!!! What does that matter? F-22 isn't going to let you get in close enough for a gun fight. He's going to take you out well before he's in your visual range or visible on your radar. Didn't read the article, didja? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:04:53 PM EDT
[#12]
The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable, but those canards and all the hardpoints on that aircraft also make it show up more on radar. Good luck to the Eurofighter finding the F-22.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:04:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Fucking rights.
Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:05:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Hope we don't go to war against Germany again...
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:05:32 PM EDT
[#15]
meant to simulate a close-range dogfight.
Yes, no big shock there. The F-22 isn't designed for close-in dogfights and that isn't how it is meant to be employed (though as the article shows, it still does well in that role). |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:06:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. If only the US hadn't killed the Avro Arrow out of jealousy. amirite? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:06:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:07:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: pfft!!! What does that matter? F-22 isn't going to let you get in close enough for a gun fight. He's going to take you out well before he's in your visual range or visible on your radar. Nemesis must follow you wherever you go when talking like that. Hubris allowed a few thousand Greeks to hold off hundreds of thousands of Persians. Have we learned nothing from history?  |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:07:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable, but those canards and all the hardpoints on that aircraft also make it show up more on radar. Good luck to the Eurofighter finding the F-22. The F22 is supposed to be an aggressive interceptor - hardly fits the bill if it has to spend it's time hiding from the Eurofighter
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:08:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Better to learn now than later! True. I hope the US gets all the issues ironed out and all that jazz. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:08:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Well that seems obvious to me. Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, where they are almost invisible on radar but can see their opponents clearly? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. I'm not trying to be smart here but does anyone know if American ROE have ever allowed for BVR engagement? I know in Vietnam they did not. Edit: Er, apparently beaten. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:09:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Wait...the F-22 was not designed to be a kill everything dog fighter. It is a kill everything fighter. It's strengths are stealth and advanced long range radar...this is what the 400 million dollar price tag does. The F-22 is a stand off weapon first, but has the the ability to keep pace with other modern aircraft.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:09:31 PM EDT
[#23]
F-22s are sexier, which is the important thing.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:09:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Well that seems obvious to me. Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, before they are picked up on radar? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. But in real engagements the ROE might not allow for BVR fighting. We all know how the Air Force likes their shows of force. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:09:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy? I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:10:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Better to learn now than later! True.
I hope the US gets all the issues ironed out and all that jazz.
Me too. I like the F22.........Cool aircraft and a force to be reckoned with. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:10:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Isn't it funny how the more advanced warfare gets the further it regresses? I mean look at WWI and WWII fighter tactics. Get in close behind them and blast them out of the sky. Now it seems with new stealth technology the only way to reasonably shoot them down is get in close behind them and blast them out of the sky.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:10:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/ $361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter. The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009. Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots. In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight. The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.” Look on the bright side...... between us we have everyone licked. We need the rules of engagement to know whether this means much. Getting close to an F-22 will be tough; first the attacker will have to climb very high and then hang in there, and second the F-22 can run away as well or better than it can turn. His pals in AESA equipped F-15's will be standing by to apply a smack down. Quoted:
The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable ... There's nothing inherently maneuverable in that configuration. The canard configuration is as much a 1980's fad as it is a good idea, and these airplanes require lots of time to get to the field, so they are totin' around the wrong parts when they do. The Eurofighter is a Piss Ant 
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:11:00 PM EDT
[#29]
I approach this subject with an open mind and eagerly await the gnashing and wailing.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:11:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. If only the US hadn't killed the Avro Arrow out of jealousy. amirite? Not really. Americans are pretty good at lying to themselves and believing it. You guy spend a shit load of money (F-22, F-35, amongst a slew of other programs), but don't really get anything for it. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:11:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well that seems obvious to me. Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, where they are almost invisible on radar but can see their opponents clearly? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. I'm not trying to be smart here but does anyone know if American ROE have ever allowed for BVR engagement? I know in Vietnam they did not. Edit: Er, apparently beaten. Didn't we have some 20+ mile kills in Iraq 1? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:11:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/ $361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter. The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009. Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots. In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight. The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.” Look on the bright side...... between us we have everyone licked. what a surprise....???? 
The F-22 is built for High Alt, high speed, BVR engagement.... to say the Tiffie is better than the F-22 is not better than saying the Spitfire was better than the Me-262 because it could outdogfight it at low speed low alt... |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:11:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Wait...the F-22 was not designed to be a kill everything dog fighter. It is a kill everything fighter. It's strengths are stealth and advanced long range radar...this is what the 400 million dollar price tag does. The F-22 is a stand off weapon first, but has the the ability to keep pace with other modern aircraft. right |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:12:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy? I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works. So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar? Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate. Even in modern conflicts.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:12:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable, but those canards and all the hardpoints on that aircraft also make it show up more on radar. Good luck to the Eurofighter finding the F-22. The F22 is supposed to be an aggressive interceptor - hardly fits the bill if it has to spend it's time hiding from the Eurofighter More like a predator stalking its prey from tall grass.
I have to be honest though - the Eurofighter is one sexy plane. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:13:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I approach this subject with an open mind and eagerly await the gnashing and wailing. Know what you mean.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:13:35 PM EDT
[#37]
This is why I support war games. There is always value in picking out data points.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:14:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy? I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works. So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar? Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate. Even in modern conflicts. LOL, not for the magical F-22. It's been regulated to air show and college football game fly-by duty ever since it's been introduced. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:14:56 PM EDT
[#39]
So, they're evenly matched in a dogfight when the US pilots are unfamiliar with the German Eurofighters.
Big freakin deal. That extra money for the F-22 isn't for its vector thrust it's for its radar evasion, radar, and comms that all outmatch the Eurofighter. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:16:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
So, they're evenly matched in a dogfight when the US pilots are unfamiliar with the German Eurofighters. Big freakin deal. That extra money for the F-22 isn't for its vector thrust it's for its radar evasion, radar, and comms that all outmatch the Eurofighter. and speed and ceiling, and manoeuvrability at high speed.... |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:16:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. They seem to have been able to do so during the tests from what I understand, at least for some of the exercises. To be honest the Raptor and Eurofighter between them make a dream team in terms of aerial combat in my eyes, but I am no expert in these matters. Add the A10 and Tornado in ground attack and low level smash-em-ups and and you have the perfect storm. It's not the first time Eurofighter has pwn3d the F22.... As an aside to what you are saying, Tornado GR3 has now been scrapped (according to someone both you and I know who services them and today was his last day) but believe it or not, the Americans are paying to keep two flying in Afghanistan because it's reconnoissance capabilities are unequalled and its PGM capabilities are still to be bettered |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:17:01 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/ $361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter. The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009. Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots. In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight. The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.” Look on the bright side...... between us we have everyone licked. what a surprise....????
The F-22 is built for High Alt, high speed, BVR engagement.... to say the Tiffie is better than the F-22 is not better than saying the Spitfire was better than the Me-262 because it could outdogfight it at low speed low alt... Nobody is saying it is better though.......merely that the Typhoon has the performance and capability to exploit the weak spot in the F22. That doesn't mean the Typhoon is better, or the F22 is crap - they are different aircraft with different capabilities. It's just an interesting article from a strategic and tactical point of view. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:18:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. If only the US hadn't killed the Avro Arrow out of jealousy. amirite? Not really. Americans are pretty good at lying to themselves and believing it. You guy spend a shit load of money (F-22, F-35, amongst a slew of other programs), but don't really get anything for it. Yeah I see the light now. Our military sucks, thanks for educating me. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:18:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable, but those canards and all the hardpoints on that aircraft also make it show up more on radar. Good luck to the Eurofighter finding the F-22. The F22 is supposed to be an aggressive interceptor - hardly fits the bill if it has to spend it's time hiding from the Eurofighter Just because you guys are deaf, dumb, and blind in a fight doesn't mean we're hiding. Hey, if any nation with Eurofighters ever wants to go to war with us I'm not too worried about how quickly we'll stomp the crap out of them. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:18:23 PM EDT
[#45]
Bunch of experts retards in this thread
So a canned BFM engagement is the halmark of judging a fighters worth. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:18:23 PM EDT
[#46]
So their plan is a tighter turning radius? Here, I can beat a Eurofighter!
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:18:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Hope we don't go to war against Germany again...    
The French would kick their asses six ways to Sunday if they tried anything! |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:18:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. They seem to have been able to do so during the tests from what I understand, at least for some of the exercises. To be honest the Raptor and Eurofighter between them make a dream team in terms of aerial combat in my eyes, but I am no expert in these matters. Add the A10 and Tornado in ground attack and low level smash-em-ups and and you have the perfect storm. It's not the first time Eurofighter has pwn3d the F22.... As an aside to what you are saying, Tornado GR3 has now been scrapped (according to someone both you and I know who services them and today was his last day) but believe it or not, the Americans are paying to keep two flying in Afghanistan because it's reconnoissance capabilities are unequalled and its PGM capabilities are still to be bettered Interesting .
Sad about the GR3.......I liked it.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:19:52 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well that seems obvious to me. Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, where they are almost invisible on radar but can see their opponents clearly? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. I'm not trying to be smart here but does anyone know if American ROE have ever allowed for BVR engagement? I know in Vietnam they did not. Edit: Er, apparently beaten. If the only way you can detect me is with the MkI Mod 0 eyeball, that gives me a lot of options in how a visual range contact starts, even if the ROE does not allow BVR engagements. Good old fashioned boom and zoom in the 21st century. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 2:20:42 PM EDT
[#50]
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR. WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do. |
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